Is This Tire Wear Normal?

Grumpy Bear · May 9, 2023

Yea, it's in spec and no it isn't right. I'm posting mine for comparison.

8 minutes ago, BlaineBug said:

From December 9th.

Uneven toe setting is causing the steer ahead. That is the largest error in this alignment. Target .03 or .04 and even will help and get rid of the pull you didn't mention. You may not feel it with EPS as it has an assist to counter that. It is forcing the scrub when going straight. You what it to go straight and the toe is dragging it sideways. Steer ahead needs to be zero and thrust angle under 0.1 degrees or as close as possible. No dog walks. Really helps gas mileage when its perfect.

Drivers side castor and camber should both be a tenth or two more positive than the passenger side. When dealing with negative camber less negative is more positive, so they got that right. It still allot of camber. Half that. It will help wear allot. ALLOT.

Castor in a truck is tricky. If you tow or haul at over half rated then this amount is about right. As the rear sags under load castor goes toward negative. Most of these have a 3 degree empty frame rake and ment to get nearly level when fully loaded taking out much of the castor. In my 119" wheel base an inch of droop is 1 degree of castor. You never want the castor to ever go below 1.5 degrees especially when towing. That said if you don't tow then taking a degree out of the castor will help edge wear, lighten the steering and reduce bump compression harshness. Additionally. Lots of castor scrubs the heck out of tire in a corner and aggravates the crow hop. Picture a three wheeled bicycle wheel turning with the fork straight up and then again with it laid back 45 degrees and picture the contact patch.

BlaineBug · May 9, 2023

24 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Yea, it's in spec and no it isn't right. I'm posting mine for comparison.

Uneven toe setting is causing the steer ahead. That is the largest error in this alignment. Target .03 or .04 and even will help and get rid of the pull you didn't mention. You may not feel it with EPS as it has an assist to counter that. It is forcing the scrub when going straight. You what it to go straight and the toe is dragging it sideways. Steer ahead needs to be zero and thrust angle under 0.1 degrees or as close as possible. No dog walks. Really helps gas mileage when its perfect.

Drivers side castor and camber should both be a tenth or two more positive than the passenger side. When dealing with negative camber less negative is more positive, so they got that right. It still allot of camber. Half that. It will help wear allot. ALLOT.

Castor in a truck is tricky. If you tow or haul at over half rated then this amount is about right. As the rear sags under load castor goes toward negative. Most of these have a 3 degree empty frame rake and ment to get nearly level when fully loaded taking out much of the castor. In my 119" wheel base an inch of droop is 1 degree of castor. You never want the castor to ever go below 1.5 degrees especially when towing. That said if you don't tow then taking a degree out of the castor will help edge wear, lighten the steering and reduce bump compression harshness. Additionally. Lots of castor scrubs the heck out of tire in a corner and aggravates the crow hop. Picture a three wheeled bicycle wheel turning with the fork straight up and then again with it laid back 45 degrees and picture the contact patch.

I see what you are saying - your alignment technician aimed to go for as close to the center of the spec as possible. my alignment tech aimed for being "within spec."

I actually dropped by the alignment shop about a half hour ago. I was told everything was perfectly normal because they are steer tires and that the alignment is perfect because it is in spec "as can be seen on the sheet." He mentioned that if the alignment was off that the outside tread block would be experiencing wear throughout rather than on the very edge like I showed.

I was hoping that they'd put it on the alignment rack as a courtesy to check, but obviously they are too busy and overworked and unenthusiastic to do so. So much for that.

He also said that I need to keep up on tire rotations every 6,000 miles otherwise I'd blow through tires in 25,000 miles. That doesn't exactly sound right to me, but I informed him that at about only 4,700 miles I wasn't even at the need for a first rotation yet either.

Edited May 9, 2023 by BlaineBug

BlaineBug · May 9, 2023

39 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Man you could drive yourself crazy with alignment and vibration. I never got an alignment, ever. My tires go at least 50K miles with 10K rotation. All my vehicles have a slight steering wheel vibration on certain roads. A little less than 50 percent on trip vehicle, new tires. Around town vehicles a little longer.

That is definitely true. Throughout my driving of 18 years I have only had a handful of alignments and only after performing the replacement of steering or suspension components. It's not something anyone in my family has put a lot of thought in to so as long as everything drives straight and the steering wheel is centered. If there isn't a problem my family has never gone looking for a problem to blow money on.

Grumpy Bear · May 10, 2023

12 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

If there isn't a problem my family has never gone looking for a problem to blow money on.

12 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

He also said that I need to keep up on tire rotations every 6,000 miles otherwise I'd blow through tires in 25,000 miles.

Interesting idea, blowing money. Well, and looking for trouble. Interesting to read Tire Rack reviews of tires too. They break it out by mileage. Darn few tires make it over 100K. Allot of tires never make it 20K. Those that go a long time are on vehicles where owners 'blow money looking for trouble'.

Just dropped $1,400 on a set of tires for the wife's SUV. Imagine doing that four or five times I don't have to. That wasted $400 in two alignments per 100K miles saves me $5,600- $7,000 ($1,400 times 4 or 5). Rotations are free if I buy my tire from my guy. Balance is extra but a zero-cost item as I will do the same number of them no matter how many sets I go through. I am fanatical about tire pressures and that free.

I've done it both ways. I don't just get it in spec. I get it right. Cost is the same. The savings is immense. I never made enough money to burn it in a campfire pit. And I made allot of money in my life.

BlaineBug · May 10, 2023

5 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Interesting idea, blowing money. Well, and looking for trouble. Interesting to read Tire Rack reviews of tires too. They break it out by mileage. Darn few tires make it over 100K. Allot of tires never make it 20K. Those that go a long time are on vehicles where owners 'blow money looking for trouble'.

Just dropped $1,400 on a set of tires for the wife's SUV. Imagine doing that four or five times I don't have to. That wasted $400 in two alignments per 100K miles saves me $5,600- $7,000 ($1,400 times 4 or 5). Rotations are free if I buy my tire from my guy. Balance is extra but a zero-cost item as I will do the same number of them no matter how many sets I go through. I am fanatical about tire pressures and that free.

I've done it both ways. I don't just get it in spec. I get it right. Cost is the same. The savings is immense. I never made enough money to burn it in a campfire pit. And I made allot of money in my life.

I have never seen any other tire manufacture last as long as Michelins do, however. And yes I have seen certain OEM tire brand wear out with less than 40,000 miles on them when there is no alignment issue either. That is really odd. Planned obsolescence. I think that's what they're planning for with our vehicles too, being electrified, and on top of batteries being complicated and expensive to replace, I'm also hearing word of "structural batteries" integrated into the unibody construction that absolutely can not be replaced, ever. Progress! I imagine that eventually, if this is the course we take or are forced to accept, that the used car market may eventually cease to exist?? And it's just crazy for me to hear that some of the new Hummer Electric models are around $150,000??? By the way the Federal Reserve Chairman says this is the strongest economy in 40 years, so you had better believe what they be telling you to believe!

Edited May 10, 2023 by BlaineBug

Grumpy Bear · May 10, 2023

8 minutes ago, BlaineBug said:

I have never seen any other tire manufacture last as long as Michelins do, however. And yes I have seen certain OEM tire brand wear out with less than 40,000 miles on them when there is no alignment issue either. That is really odd. Planned obsolescence. I think that's what they're planning for with our vehicles too, being electrified, and on top of batteries being complicated and expensive to replace, I'm also hearing word of "structural batteries" integrated into the unibody construction that absolutely can not be replaced, ever. Progress! I imagine that eventually, if this is the course we take or are forced to accept, that the used car market may eventually cease to exist?? And it's just crazy for me to hear that some of the new Hummer Electric models are around $150,000??? By the way the Federal Reserve Chairman says this is the strongest economy in 40 years, so you had better believe what they be telling you to believe!

Our current Honda use to go through tires. In factory alignment too. About every 15K miles. Honda replaced the upper rear control arms and it got worse. After 5 sets and the warranty running out, I installed a set of MOOG Problem Solver adjustable upper arms and handed my guy a sheet of specs to hit. Next set went 100K. Same 60K warranty tire.

First set of Duelers went 125K on the pickup. It's a factory 40K warranty tire. Perfected the alignment and great shocks. It's had three alignments in 165K miles. Still tight as a drum.

Allot of things are like that. Ever notice that when you find something that last and you really like it, they quit making it, make it illegal or cheap it up until it fails? I miss original denim weight Levi 517's and handmade Stewart boots. I've had about six pair. They tripled in price over 20 years.

Custom Black Riding Boot, made from Horsehide, and Stitching | Stewart Boot Company (stewartboots.com)

BlaineBug · May 10, 2023

2 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Our current Honda use to go through tires. In factory alignment too. About every 15K miles. Honda replaced the upper rear control arms and it got worse. After 5 sets and the warranty running out, I installed a set of MOOG Problem Solver adjustable upper arms and handed my guy a sheet of specs to hit. Next set went 100K. Same 60K warranty tire.

First set of Duelers went 125K on the pickup. It's a factory 40K warranty tire. Perfected the alignment and great shocks. It's had three alignments in 165K miles. Still tight as a drum.

Allot of things are like that. Ever notice that when you find something that last and you really like it, they quit making it, make it illegal or cheap it up until it fails? I miss original denim weight Levi 517's and handmade Stewart boots. I've had about six pair. They tripled in price over 20 years.

Custom Black Riding Boot, made from Horsehide, and Stitching | Stewart Boot Company (stewartboots.com)

Tripling in price throughout 2 decades is a steal these days. Most things have increased at least 30% throughout the course of the last 2 years.

rlcole321 · May 14, 2023

When aligning a frt end, especially a pusher (RWD), camber and toe are mostly the same, for normal day driver, 0 degrees camber and 1/16" to 1/8' toe in (as for degrees .2 degrees equals about 1/10",give or take depending on the tire diameter), but caster is set because turning in a circle the inside tire turns a tighter circle than the outside tire ( I know "DUH"), so the factory sets the spec's based on the geometry of the vehicle, now that said, it really is based on how you drive, (which is not figured into the factory spec's) if your a "Sport Type" driver, then you will have "More" tire scrub than if your a "Grandma" turning the corner. So caster can be set based on your driving style, the more caster the more the inside tire will bit into a turn, normally the right side should be about .5 to .75 of a degree more that the left side tire (due to road crown) which I noticed yours's are close to the same, only .1 degree apart. Now of course when in 4WD, it changes the geometry of the frt end. All that said, the fac. spec's do have a "Range" or "With-in" settings to allow "To be in Spec's".

Now one other thing you mentioned is that "It feels as if the truck tries to push forward at the same time it is turning."

Sometimes, like it happens with my truck, the GM locker rear diff can stay in "Locked" mode, (like if your in a low traction condition) when that happens to me, I get that "it dosent want to turn mode" so I have to put it in reverse to "Unlock" the diff.

Hope this is helpfull.

Grumpy Bear · May 14, 2023

Caster has nothing to do with slip angle. Delta between the inside and outside tires turn radius. Ackerman was adjustable on my 76 Vette.

If you really understand this, then alignment is more than just being SOMEWHERE in spec. There is a perfect setup. Midspec in production cars.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

BlaineBug · May 15, 2023

6 hours ago, rlcole321 said:

When aligning a frt end, especially a pusher (RWD), camber and toe are mostly the same, for normal day driver, 0 degrees camber and 1/16" to 1/8' toe in (as for degrees .2 degrees equals about 1/10",give or take depending on the tire diameter), but caster is set because turning in a circle the inside tire turns a tighter circle than the outside tire ( I know "DUH"), so the factory sets the spec's based on the geometry of the vehicle, now that said, it really is based on how you drive, (which is not figured into the factory spec's) if your a "Sport Type" driver, then you will have "More" tire scrub than if your a "Grandma" turning the corner. So caster can be set based on your driving style, the more caster the more the inside tire will bit into a turn, normally the right side should be about .5 to .75 of a degree more that the left side tire (due to road crown) which I noticed yours's are close to the same, only .1 degree apart. Now of course when in 4WD, it changes the geometry of the frt end. All that said, the fac. spec's do have a "Range" or "With-in" settings to allow "To be in Spec's".

Now one other thing you mentioned is that "It feels as if the truck tries to push forward at the same time it is turning."

Sometimes, like it happens with my truck, the GM locker rear diff can stay in "Locked" mode, (like if your in a low traction condition) when that happens to me, I get that "it dosent want to turn mode" so I have to put it in reverse to "Unlock" the diff.

Hope this is helpfull.

The sensation of having the rear G80 locked is much different. I rarely feel that because it is rarely locked, but I have felt it backing out of my driveway before when it is dry, when I have pulled in the night before in 2wd when it was slick and snowing. That is a totally different sensation.

BlaineBug · May 26, 2023

I saw this ad recently for 4 Tahoe wheels and tires for sale. Looks to me to be the exact same type of tire wear;

Grumpy Bear · May 26, 2023

There is IN SPEC and then there is ON SPEC. In spec is a number a monkey could hit during the build and while doing a retail alignment. Finding a dozen others with broken arms doesn't make broken arms 'normal'.

mikeyk101 · May 26, 2023

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

There is IN SPEC and then there is ON SPEC. In spec is a number a monkey could hit during the build and while doing a retail alignment. Finding a dozen others with broken arms doesn't make broken arms 'normal'.

Very true. A little off topic, I know on my motorcycle, the intake and exhaust valves need to be checked every 30-40k miles and if taking it to an average dealer, they will probably just make sure the valves are "in spec" (+/- .001) per manufacturers numbers. That is considered "acceptable". But they really need to be set at "center spec" to get the best performance. Center spec is more time consuming and costly through a dealer but much better in the end. But finding a shop that will do that isn't easy. I do my own now...

Edited May 26, 2023 by mikeyk101

BlaineBug · May 27, 2023

9 hours ago, mikeyk101 said:

Very true. A little off topic, I know on my motorcycle, the intake and exhaust valves need to be checked every 30-40k miles and if taking it to an average dealer, they will probably just make sure the valves are "in spec" (+/- .001) per manufacturers numbers. That is considered "acceptable". But they really need to be set at "center spec" to get the best performance. Center spec is more time consuming and costly through a dealer but much better in the end. But finding a shop that will do that isn't easy. I do my own now...

DIY alignments are more tricky especially if adjusting beyond toe (camber/caster - good luck!)

mikeyk101 · May 27, 2023

2 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

DIY alignments are more tricky especially if adjusting beyond toe (camber/caster - good luck!)

That's a bit over my pay grade, LOL! I think I'll stick with just adjusting motorcycle engine valves on my own and leave alignments to the professionals...