How to diagnose lifter failure before it really goes south?

[PunchT37]

Still the easiest modern engine, by far, to work on.

[Gangly]

On 10/30/2024 at 6:15 PM, DK91105 said:

 

I've been working on stuff my whole adult-ish life.  Done engine swaps, builds, etc... other than that previous experience though I know nothing about these engines and every nut and bolt is a learning curve.  Absolutely zero clue how to take any of this apart besides a little intuition about how I think it should go.  ALSO I'm a YouTube certified master mechanic.    anytime I'm up against something iffy I just Google it and watch a video.  

 

Replacement items are lifters, cam, all gaskets etc...  don't think pushrod replacement is necessary.  

Pushrods are cheap.  I replaced mine since they were going to be mated up against new lifters.  Though unlikely, I didn't want any wear patterns from the old setup to create issues on the new setup.

Make sure you have the right allen head for the driver's side forward-most head bolt.  Its an odd size and is ironically missing from most sets.  I spent a day driving all over town looking for it and got lucky enough to find it at a Tractor Supply of all places.  It could not be found at Autozone, O'Rielly's, NAPA, or Northern Tool or Harbor Freight. 

 

I get excited when I see people doing their own mechanic work.  It can be a little daunting at first, but its really pretty easy once you get after it.  I wont say it was enjoyable tearing mine down, but it was enlightening with a good amount of pride when you first fire it back up. 

 

Take lots of photos of your progress, its fun to watch.  If you have any questions, ask away :).  

[DK91105]

On 11/1/2024 at 7:46 AM, Gangly said:

Pushrods are cheap.  I replaced mine since they were going to be mated up against new lifters.  Though unlikely, I didn't want any wear patterns from the old setup to create issues on the new setup.

Make sure you have the right allen head for the driver's side forward-most head bolt.  Its an odd size and is ironically missing from most sets.  I spent a day driving all over town looking for it and got lucky enough to find it at a Tractor Supply of all places.  It could not be found at Autozone, O'Rielly's, NAPA, or Northern Tool or Harbor Freight. 

 

I get excited when I see people doing their own mechanic work.  It can be a little daunting at first, but its really pretty easy once you get after it.  I wont say it was enjoyable tearing mine down, but it was enlightening with a good amount of pride when you first fire it back up. 

 

Take lots of photos of your progress, its fun to watch.  If you have any questions, ask away :). 

 

 

I appreciate the offer and ill take you up on it!  What puller did you use to remove the balancer? I have 3 different kinds of pullers and NONE of them work for this balancer.

[Gangly]

I didn't pull the cam so I never had to remove the balancer. 

 

My lifters weren't bad, but I had 130k on the motor so I pulled the heads and replaced the lifters and pushrods more out of having some peace of mind than anything else.  My valves looked like yours as well, and I had an oil stain going through the throttle body and into the intake from the breather system.  As you clearly identified as well, a catch can is needed on these trucks.

[DK91105]

Well, I'm almost all the way down.  Last hurdle is to get this cam out without dropping the pan.   Seems to be easier said than done.  I've got the tension off the chain but I will can't walk the chain off the cam gear.  I've watched some videos and get the idea but I gave up for today.  

[DK91105]

Well well well....  finally got it all the way down and lookie what I found.   An initial visual inspection of the lifters didn't yield any obvious clues but when I pulled the cam out....    So to folks who say tapping noises are nothing to worry about... I was definitely on borrowed time with this engine.  

[Colin Zwaschka]

On 11/10/2024 at 3:36 PM, DK91105 said:

Well, I'm almost all the way down.  Last hurdle is to get this cam out without dropping the pan.   Seems to be easier said than done.  I've got the tension off the chain but I will can't walk the chain off the cam gear.  I've watched some videos and get the idea but I gave up for today.  

Do you have a picture showing where the sweet spot is? I was trying right here so the phaser plate doesn't hit the oil pump, but I wasn't having much luck. I've got one gear tooth hitting on top of the driver's side chain guide. I'm going to try turning the engine one-half of a gear tooth further and see if that helps. Yes, I have the flex plate locked.

[DK91105]

23 minutes ago, Colin Zwaschka said:

Do you have a picture showing where the sweet spot is? I was trying right here so the phaser plate doesn't hit the oil pump, but I wasn't having much luck. I've got one gear tooth hitting on top of the driver's side chain guide. I'm going to try turning the engine one-half of a gear tooth further and see if that helps. Yes, I have the flex plate locked.

Stop what you are doing and put the #1 piston back at TDC and at that point the arrow on the cam gear should be pointing straight up at 12 o'clock.   Then go back under the truck and install the lock that bolts where the starter goes.  From there mark across the flex plate and onto the lock tool with a sharpie or scribe so when you go to put it back you aren't depending on the timing chain marks or something else that could move if you drop the chain or it slips a tooth on the crank sprocket.  

 

After that remove the cam bolt and turn the crank to about where you have it so that the phaser plates notches straddle the oil pump like you have pictured.  From there pull out on the cam gear until it disengaged from the cam and drops down a little. DO NOT pull on the phaser plate.  You can pull it apart fairly easily. There is a clock spring type setup in there and you can not put it back together if you seperate it.  You will have to buy a new one and they aren't awful expensive but still around $200 I think.    

 

You already have the tensioner release I see so your next step is to grab the chain on the drivers side and lift / pull on it until you get all the slack available on that side.  Once you do put a sturdy pick or screw driver around the 2:30 / 3 o'clock position and gently pry the chain back in a manner that is trying to push the chain behind the cam gear.  You will know if you have it right as a little pressure will just about allow you to put the chain completely behind the gear. Once there take a 2nd pick tool and walk it one tooth up.  Repeat this until it walks off the back of the gear. It took me 3 moves once I found the right spot.  It will take some light force but certainly nothing that feels excessive.  If you are going balls out trying to pry it off you aren't in the right spot or have it setup right.  

 

After it's off put #1 back at TDC and reinstall the lock tool where the starter goes while paying attention that the marks you made previously are lined up.  When you reinstall the gear make sure when it's on that the arrow is back at 12 o'clock. 

Edited November 14, 2024 by DK91105

[Colin Zwaschka]

25 minutes ago, DK91105 said:

Stop what you are doing and put the #1 piston back at TDC and at that point the arrow on the cam gear should be pointing straight up at 12 o'clock.   Then go back under the truck and install the lock that bolts where the starter goes.  From there mark across the flex plate and onto the lock tool with a sharpie or scribe so when you go to put it back you aren't depending on the timing chain marks or something else that could move if you drop the chain or it slips a tooth on the crank sprocket.  

 

After that remove the cam bolt and turn the crank to about where you have it so that the phaser plates notches straddle the oil pump like you have pictured.  From there pull out on the cam gear until it disengaged from the cam and drops down a little. DO NOT pull on the phaser plate.  You can pull it apart fairly easily. There is a clock spring type setup in there and you can not put it back together if you seperate it.  You will have to buy a new one and they aren't awful expensive but still around $200 I think.    

 

You already have the tensioner release I see so your next step is to grab the chain on the drivers side and lift / pull on it until you get all the slack available on that side.  Once you do put a sturdy pick or screw driver around the 2:30 / 3 o'clock position and gently pry the chain back in a manner that is trying to push the chain behind the cam gear.  You will know if you have it right as a little pressure will just about allow you to put the chain completely behind the gear. Once there take a 2nd pick tool and walk it one tooth up.  Repeat this until it walks off the back of the gear. It took me 3 moves once I found the right spot.  It will take some light force but certainly nothing that feels excessive.  If you are going balls out trying to pry it off you aren't in the right spot or have it setup right.  

 

After it's off put #1 back at TDC and reinstall the lock tool where the starter goes while paying attention that the marks you made previously are lined up.  When you reinstall the gear make sure when it's on that the arrow is back at 12 o'clock. 

I like your suggestion of marking the flex plate at locker at TDC. That's a good check after reassembly (assuming I can find the sweet spot). I have a piece of fishing line tied around the top of the chain to try to keep it from dropping, and a zip tie off to the side to keep it from falling out of reach if the fishing line breaks. 

Did you unlock the flex plate to be able to rotate the cam gear when you were walking the chain off? If so, were you able to get the cam sprocket back in in the right spot on the first go? That seems like the easiest way to find the sweet spot, but it also seems like it would be more difficult to get things lined up right, but with the mark on the flex plate and lock, you'd at least know that you have to pull it off and adjust over a tooth or so.

[DK91105]

7 minutes ago, Colin Zwaschka said:

I like your suggestion of marking the flex plate at locker at TDC. That's a good check after reassembly (assuming I can find the sweet spot). I have a piece of fishing line tied around the top of the chain to try to keep it from dropping, and a zip tie off to the side to keep it from falling out of reach if the fishing line breaks. 

Did you unlock the flex plate to be able to rotate the cam gear when you were walking the chain off? If so, were you able to get the cam sprocket back in in the right spot on the first go? That seems like the easiest way to find the sweet spot, but it also seems like it would be more difficult to get things lined up right, but with the mark on the flex plate and lock, you'd at least know that you have to pull it off and adjust over a tooth or so.

It was unlocked but I didn't rotate it to get the chain off. Once I turned it to where I needed to get the phaser plate out of the way that's all I needed. That allows it to drop down just enough to get this to work.  I haven't reassembled it yet but I will be locking it back before I attempt it.  This way I know it's right when it's back on and the arrow is pointing straight up.  

[DK91105]

Heads cleaned up pretty good but I decided to make them perfect.  For $200 a local engine machine shop took .003" off of the mating surface and gave them a bath.  Not all the carbon came loose but it looks a lot better overall.  

[Colin Zwaschka]

19 hours ago, DK91105 said:

It was unlocked but I didn't rotate it to get the chain off. Once I turned it to where I needed to get the phaser plate out of the way that's all I needed. That allows it to drop down just enough to get this to work.  I haven't reassembled it yet but I will be locking it back before I attempt it.  This way I know it's right when it's back on and the arrow is pointing straight up.  

Schnikes. It worked. Thanks for the confidence. I probably owe you a beer or two fingers of Blantons. I did end up unbolting the oil pump and sliding it as far forward as I could. The oil pumps on the L84s have alignment dowels, so I'm not too concerned about getting it back in position. I just have to be careful with the rubber seal in the oil pan for the pickup tube. I was able to get enough slack that I actually just used my fingers to push the chain off the backside. I then had to fight trying to get the gear/phaser past the chain, but still a million times easier than dropping the axle or pulling the engine to drop the oil pan. Hopefully it goes back together. Now I just wait for my camshaft. 

[DK91105]

9 hours ago, Colin Zwaschka said:

Schnikes. It worked. Thanks for the confidence. I probably owe you a beer or two fingers of Blantons. I did end up unbolting the oil pump and sliding it as far forward as I could. The oil pumps on the L84s have alignment dowels, so I'm not too concerned about getting it back in position. I just have to be careful with the rubber seal in the oil pan for the pickup tube. I was able to get enough slack that I actually just used my fingers to push the chain off the backside. I then had to fight trying to get the gear/phaser past the chain, but still a million times easier than dropping the axle or pulling the engine to drop the oil pan. Hopefully it goes back together. Now I just wait for my camshaft. 

Your cam is obviously waaaaay  worse than mine.  I'm going to do this myself and highly suggest you do it as well...  get 2 oil change kits.  Before you start it up again change it.  Run it for a bit, let it get up to temp and then drain and change oil and filter again.   You do not want any of those particles in between your friction surfaces.  

 

I unbolted the pump but didn't slide it forward.  It let it wiggle a tiny bit but I did not want to mess with that seal on the pickup.  Looks impossible to replace if you screw it up.   How did you slide the pump forward at all? it seems locked in place because of that seal the the dowels.

 

What were your symptoms prior to tearing into it and are you going back stock or delete?

Edited November 15, 2024 by DK91105

[Colin Zwaschka]

7 hours ago, DK91105 said:

Your cam is obviously waaaaay  worse than mine.  I'm going to do this myself and highly suggest you do it as well...  get 2 oil change kits.  Before you start it up again change it.  Run it for a bit, let it get up to temp and then drain and change oil and filter again.   You do not want any of those particles in between your friction surfaces.  

 

I unbolted the pump but didn't slide it forward.  It let it wiggle a tiny bit but I did not want to mess with that seal on the pickup.  Looks impossible to replace if you screw it up.   How did you slide the pump forward at all? it seems locked in place because of that seal the the dowels.

 

What were your symptoms prior to tearing into it and are you going back stock or delete?

I bought it from a used car dealer with a supposed bad motor. He thought is was a piston knock, but never had anything confirmed. He sold it at a price where if I had to put a new motor in, I'd still have a fair deal on it. I got it home and starting doing some diagnosing. I thought the sound was more pronounced on the passenger side, so I started with that valve covered. Turned it over for a bit and noticed the #8 exhaust lifter would stop working after turning over for a bit. I think the "knocking" noise was just the backpressure from the intake valve opening while the cylinder was still pressurized. I was hoping I could get away with just lifters and the delete (TSP plugs, Diablo tuner) since the L84 cams have the same lobe profiles for each cylinder, but after getting the heads off I stuck a camera down the lifter bores and saw that marring on the lobe. I should still be getting a good deal on the truck after this if I don't value my time too much. 

[DK91105]

Here's proof you can do this with out a pan drop or pulling the oil pump forward.  Going back on was easier than removal.  Nailed the orientation in 1 try.    New cam and retainer plate installed prior obviously.