Oil Consumption

Another JR · May 29

1 hour ago, riddler said:

Sounds to me like some piston rings might seat at different times depending on driving factors. If I get 200k out of mine I will be happy. Not excited about the oil consumption though. My ladt truck Ford got 217,000 miles with not one drop of oil consumption, at the time of trade in. Coyote 5.0

I received my truck with 2 miles on it and no other customer test drives, and I followed the break in carefully. I may just have been lucky though. My truck loses just under a pint in my 3750 mile oil changes intervals based on measuring added versus drained through 5 intervals now. I can’t ask for much better than that.

Chuck FB · May 29

25 minutes ago, Another JR said:

I received my truck with 2 miles on it and no other customer test drives, and I followed the break in carefully. I may just have been lucky though. My truck loses just under a pint in my 3750 mile oil changes intervals based on measuring added versus drained through 5 intervals now. I can’t ask for much better than that.

Do you notice a change in consumption speed over your oil change interval or does it seem fairly steady in its slow drop over the miles ?

riddler · May 29

40 minutes ago, Another JR said:

I received my truck with 2 miles on it and no other customer test drives, and I followed the break in carefully. I may just have been lucky though. My truck loses just under a pint in my 3750 mile oil changes intervals based on measuring added versus drained through 5 intervals now. I can’t ask for much better than that.

Mine had 3 miles on it when I bought it. Break in same here. Good thing I enjoy doing my own maintenance.

riddler · May 29

16 minutes ago, Chuck FB said:

Do you notice a change in consumption speed over your oil change interval or does it seem fairly steady in its slow drop over the miles ?

Steady Slow drop I would say. I do have a catch can on it. Seems like a lot of pcv blow buy. Maybe 1/4 can in 3k miles.

Chuck FB · May 29

1 hour ago, riddler said:

Sounds to me like some piston rings might seat at different times depending on driving factors. If I get 200k out of mine I will be happy. Not excited about the oil consumption though. My ladt truck Ford got 217,000 miles with not one drop of oil consumption, at the time of trade in. Coyote 5.0

What year was your Ford 5.0 as it just occurred to me that Ford has a class action lawsuit in regards to the 2018 to 2020 5.0 engine due to excessive oil use. From what I read Ford said its acceptable to use 1 quart in 3000 miles, however the problem engines its said were using a quart in 1000 miles or less. Again from what I read one of the reasons for this high oil consumption was them going to a new technology of a plasma spray type of coating right onto the aluminum block rather than having the pressed in iron cylinder sleeves. But there were other years as well that some had oil consumption issues and a Ford my brother had years ago and bought slightly used within the warranty period and it had the 5.0 although a vastly different engine back then but it was consuming a lot of oil and the dealer replaced the pistons as there was an issue with the piston design. I guess what I am pointing out is that GM isn't the only one that has had oil consumption issues, no that doesn't make it right but there have been bad designs or wrong tolerances etc on various manufacture brands that resulted in excessive consumption.

Chuck FB · May 29

6 minutes ago, riddler said:

Steady Slow drop I would say. I do have a catch can on it. Seems like a lot of pcv blow buy. Maybe 1/4 can in 3k miles.

Is that oil only or the mixture of moisture and and oil. Due to where I live I will stay far away from the catch can idea as its far too cold up here during the winter to not risk filling the can completely and blocking/freezing off the PCV system with water. I've seen comments from guys who have tried a can on an engine during the winter and within days its full of water, frozen water. If one lives in the south where it never freezes or very mildly would be different or like guys in Australia that run cans on their diesel Utes if they feel the need.

riddler · May 29

7 minutes ago, Chuck FB said:

What year was your Ford 5.0 as it just occurred to me that Ford has a class action lawsuit in regards to the 2018 to 2020 5.0 engine due to excessive oil use. From what I read Ford said its acceptable to use 1 quart in 3000 miles, however the problem engines its said were using a quart in 1000 miles or less. Again from what I read one of the reasons for this high oil consumption was them going to a new technology of a plasma spray type of coating right onto the aluminum block rather than having the pressed in iron cylinder sleeves. But there were other years as well that some had oil consumption issues and a Ford my brother had years ago and bought slightly used within the warranty period and it had the 5.0 although a vastly different engine back then but it was consuming a lot of oil and the dealer replaced the pistons as there was an issue with the piston design. I guess what I am pointing out is that GM isn't the only one that has had oil consumption issues, no that doesn't make it right but there have been bad designs or wrong tolerances etc on various manufacture brands that resulted in excessive consumption.

2015 the best V8 I ever had coyote motor. Look it up, probably the best small block V8 Ford ever made.

riddler · May 29

4 minutes ago, Chuck FB said:

Is that oil only or the mixture of moisture and and oil. Due to where I live I will stay far away from the catch can idea as its far too cold up here during the winter to not risk filling the can completely and blocking/freezing off the PCV system with water. I've seen comments from guys who have tried a can on an engine during the winter and within days its full of water, frozen water. If one lives in the south where it never freezes or very mildly would be different or like guys in Australia that run cans on their diesel Utes if they feel the need.

I live in the hot desert 1/2 and tall pines cold 1/2. I check and clean the can often.

Chuck FB · May 29

2 minutes ago, riddler said:

I live in the hot desert 1/2 and tall pines cold 1/2. I check and clean the can often.

I can guess that if your driving during the day in the desert, the humidity is most likely pretty low and with it less moisture to get past the rings. However it just struck me, are you going north for the winter and south for the summer. If so that would cut down on being around the busy tourist/traditional snow bird seasons !. Where I am we hit -40 or colder every winter and its not uncommon to have -30 or colder daytime highs for days on end, certainly not friendly to anything mechanical including EV's that fall flat on their face when its cold.

Grumpy Bear · May 29

1 hour ago, Chuck FB said:

I can guess that if your driving during the day in the desert, the humidity is most likely pretty low and with it less moisture to get past the rings. However it just struck me, are you going north for the winter and south for the summer. If so that would cut down on being around the busy tourist/traditional snow bird seasons !. Where I am we hit -40 or colder every winter and its not uncommon to have -30 or colder daytime highs for days on end, certainly not friendly to anything mechanical including EV's that fall flat on their face when its cold.

Chuck I'm not going to bang on you. I quoted you to highlight the issue of the impact off driving habits on the system under discussion. (Riddler)

Efficient combustion produces what? CO2 and.......WATER. A little over a gallon per gallon of fuel burned. Humidity is a fractional of a fractional. Most of that water exits the exhaust pipe but a percentage of it leaks past the rings. (Leak down test). That tells you that ring seal has a great deal to do with how much water enters the crankcase. Once there, then what?

If the oil is hot enough long enough it exits the crankcase via the breather (PCV System) and is reintroduced into the intake change where is exits the exhaust with a smaller percentage leaking back past the rings. What is left over is held in solution in the PPM range and eliminated on the next oil change. ( over about 1,000 ppm it becomes free water, see below).

IF the oil never reaches temperature (short hopping, cold weather)) it collects and combines with other combustion products to produce acids. Those acids react with other combustion byproducts to make SLUDGE. Unreacted FUEL products NOT water will form VARNISH on cool down.

How you drive MATTERS a great deal. Environment matters.

It's PHYSICS, not on opinion.

This yuk builds over time to foul the oil returns in the oil control ring land or sticking the ring; flooding that ring rendering it ineffective.

If the motor didn't use oil for a prolonged period of time (20K) then the rings SEATED and then fouled or stuck OR that crap crapped up the PCV which made the oil worse and the rings stuck or fouled. That crap over repeated heat cycles carbonizes into a coke like substance that is very hard to remove without mechanical intervention; or was until the release of Valvoline Restore and Protect which breaks down that crap and allows it to be filtered out freeing both the ring in the groove and the oil returns in the land. Rings don't unseat, the bores wear out or the rings foul.

Had the oil been changed often enough those reactions would have been rendered NULL. Had the oil been more polar those solids produced by those reactions would have stayed in suspension and never precipitated to begin with assuming you didn't try to run it to extinction. Even a sponge has a finite capacity. Polar oils are just larger sponges with the ability to hold varnish at bay and sludge either in solution or suspension to removed at the next oil change.

At risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time....use better oil, change it frequently and treat the machine in a manor meant to give it an chance of success. ( @diyer2)

Older motor designs that used thicker high tension rings resisted this mess with more radial force AND larger oil return capacity. Those motors also used MORE FUEL and generated MORE WATER by more than double. New motors are not all junk. They are NOT stupid proof. Neither were older motors. They were just operated by people that knew the difference between a sparkplug and a fireplug and didn't have access to the internet and it's AI garbage.

Edited May 29 by Grumpy Bear

riddler · May 29

32 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Chuck I'm not going to bang on you. I quoted you to highlight the issue of the impact off driving habits on the system under discussion. (Riddler)

Efficient combustion produces what? CO2 and.......WATER. A little over a gallon per gallon of fuel burned. Humidity is a fractional of a fractional. Most of that water exits the exhaust pipe but a percentage of it leaks past the rings. (Leak down test). That tells you that ring seal has a great deal to do with how much water enters the crankcase. Once there, then what?

If the oil is hot enough long enough it exits the crankcase via the breather (PCV System) and is reintroduced into the intake change where is exits the exhaust with a smaller percentage leaking back past the rings. What is left over is held in solution in the PPM range and eliminated on the next oil change. ( over about 1,000 ppm it becomes free water, see below).

IF the oil never reaches temperature (short hopping, cold weather)) it collects and combines with other combustion products to produce acids. Those acids react with other combustion byproducts to make SLUDGE. Unreacted FUEL products NOT water will form VARNISH on cool down.

How you drive MATTERS a great deal. Environment matters.

It's PHYSICS, not on opinion.

This yuk builds over time to foul the oil returns in the oil control ring land or sticking the ring; flooding that ring rendering it ineffective.

If the motor didn't use oil for a prolonged period of time (20K) then the rings SEATED and then fouled or stuck OR that crap crapped up the PCV which made the oil worse and the rings stuck or fouled. That crap over repeated heat cycles carbonizes into a coke like substance that is very hard to remove without mechanical intervention; or was until the release of Valvoline Restore and Protect which breaks down that crap and allows it to be filtered out freeing both the ring in the groove and the oil returns in the land. Rings don't unseat, the bores wear out or the rings foul.

Had the oil been changed often enough those reactions would have been rendered NULL. Had the oil been more polar those solids produced by those reactions would have stayed in suspension and never precipitated to begin with assuming you didn't try to run it to extinction. Even a sponge has a finite capacity. Polar oils are just larger sponges with the ability to hold varnish at bay and sludge either in solution or suspension to removed at the next oil change.

At risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time....use better oil, change it frequently and treat the machine in a manor meant to give it an chance of success. ( @diyer2)

Older motor designs that used thicker high tension rings resisted this mess with more radial force AND larger oil return capacity. Those motors also used MORE FUEL and generated MORE WATER by more than double. New motors are not all junk. They are NOT stupid proof. Neither were older motors. They were just operated by people that knew the difference between a sparkplug and a fireplug and didn't have access to the internet and it's AI garbage.

Driving habits do not matter in oil consumption period. Get some help!

Chuck FB · May 29

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Chuck I'm not going to bang on you. I quoted you to highlight the issue of the impact off driving habits on the system under discussion. (Riddler)

Efficient combustion produces what? CO2 and.......WATER. A little over a gallon per gallon of fuel burned. Humidity is a fractional of a fractional. Most of that water exits the exhaust pipe but a percentage of it leaks past the rings. (Leak down test). That tells you that ring seal has a great deal to do with how much water enters the crankcase. Once there, then what?

If the oil is hot enough long enough it exits the crankcase via the breather (PCV System) and is reintroduced into the intake change where is exits the exhaust with a smaller percentage leaking back past the rings. What is left over is held in solution in the PPM range and eliminated on the next oil change. ( over about 1,000 ppm it becomes free water, see below).

IF the oil never reaches temperature (short hopping, cold weather)) it collects and combines with other combustion products to produce acids. Those acids react with other combustion byproducts to make SLUDGE. Unreacted FUEL products NOT water will form VARNISH on cool down.

How you drive MATTERS a great deal. Environment matters.

It's PHYSICS, not on opinion.

This yuk builds over time to foul the oil returns in the oil control ring land or sticking the ring; flooding that ring rendering it ineffective.

If the motor didn't use oil for a prolonged period of time (20K) then the rings SEATED and then fouled or stuck OR that crap crapped up the PCV which made the oil worse and the rings stuck or fouled. That crap over repeated heat cycles carbonizes into a coke like substance that is very hard to remove without mechanical intervention; or was until the release of Valvoline Restore and Protect which breaks down that crap and allows it to be filtered out freeing both the ring in the groove and the oil returns in the land. Rings don't unseat, the bores wear out or the rings foul.

Had the oil been changed often enough those reactions would have been rendered NULL. Had the oil been more polar those solids produced by those reactions would have stayed in suspension and never precipitated to begin with assuming you didn't try to run it to extinction. Even a sponge has a finite capacity. Polar oils are just larger sponges with the ability to hold varnish at bay and sludge either in solution or suspension to removed at the next oil change.

At risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time....use better oil, change it frequently and treat the machine in a manor meant to give it an chance of success. ( @diyer2)

Older motor designs that used thicker high tension rings resisted this mess with more radial force AND larger oil return capacity. Those motors also used MORE FUEL and generated MORE WATER by more than double. New motors are not all junk. They are NOT stupid proof. Neither were older motors. They were just operated by people that knew the difference between a sparkplug and a fireplug and didn't have access to the internet and it's AI garbage.

On that topic of atmospheric conditions experienced by the engine during its operation, it would be interesting to see inside of a certain engine platform type to compare the death valley low humidity hot weather theme of the summer vs a hot but very humid climate such as along the gulf states during the summer. Granted the outcome would change drastically if they were run short intervals vs longer heat cycles that would heat up the oil to drive out the moisture that is present.

Conversely very cold weather means not only the struggle to reach a proper oil temperature, that smaller town person that mostly never drives out of town doesn't allow the oil to reach a proper temp and does the typical to work, back home for lunch, back to work, then finally back home theme day after day. I can only imagine the wear and sludge build up in a "typical" maintenance schedule theme engine. Thee old cardboard over the grill or in front of the rad theme all winter was no doubt helping more then they realized to help the life of the engine and not just to build heat quicker for the cab heat and defrost.

KARNUT · May 29

I have lots of in field experience with all kinds of engines. Service trucks, regular field trucks and of course personal vehicles. Driving habits have little to do with oil consumption. I have a lead foot. Even retired I still have contact with the family business. The biggest extending event for your engine is oil changes. It’s just that simple.

Grumpy Bear · May 29

9 hours ago, riddler said:

Driving habits do not matter in oil consumption period. Get some help!

2 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I have lots of in field experience with all kinds of engines. Service trucks, regular field trucks and of course personal vehicles. Driving habits have little to do with oil consumption. I have a lead foot. Even retired I still have contact with the family business. The biggest extending event for your engine is oil changes. It’s just that simple.

https://www.tsbsearch.com/GMC/01-06-01-011I

Also GM TSB #03-06-01-023

Someone needs to call GM Engineering and tell them ALL what idiots they are.

diyer2 · May 29

Yes Grumpy!

I have said forever how oil changes are the lifeblood of an engine. Back in the 70's when I raced quarter mile on the weekends with a daily driver small block Chevy I always changed the oil before and after racing. Never had engine problems.