Grumpy Bears 2015 Silverado 2WD

[swathdiver]

My memory escapes me, how much of the summer increase over the previous year is attributed to the cooling system thermostat?

[swathdiver]

Marty, I've been searching these posts and these forums for information on 5W20 and 0W20 and 0W30 use in Gen IV aluminum block 5.3 engines, the motor in my truck.  If I'm understanding things right, if the quality of the oil is high enough, running 0W20 should be fine.  Truck is about 129K miles now and usually drives around with a GVW between 6300-7000 pounds.  And we live in Florida.  Also thinking about a 180 thermostat.  Lingenfelter offers a 174 and others have 160s.  My truck has a BlackBear tune so Justin can adjust for the oil and cooling system if needs be but I wouldn't want to wear out the 700 watt fan motors either.  What say you?  

[Grumpy Bear]

James: Let's do the easy one first. The difference between 0W20 and 5W20. The 0W is less viscous when you start your truck in the morning but at running temperature they are the same. That's it. If your already running 5W20 you can't hurt anything switching. Unless your skimming your oil of the waters of the Gulf Coast!!

 

Quality needs a word. Group III and lower oils need more viscosity suppression than Group IV and V oils. Part of the Grouping classification has to do with the base oils natural viscosity index. The lower the index the more viscosity changes with heat. The lower the Group the lower the natural viscosity index, the more junk is in the can.

 

AMSOIL's Signature Series is a group IV PAO (Quoting Rick from a previous post to this thread). Red Line is a Group IV/V blend. These are the only two oils I am absolutely certain about. They would contain the least suppression polymers. In fact Red Line contains nearly none due to the esters. I fairly certain Quaker State Ultimate Durability is a full on Group III. They are all quality oils just different chemistries. Give this a thought. 5W30 is a 25 point spread. 0W20 only a 20 point. Which can has more suppression additive? Yep...5W30. 

 

Thermostat. How low can you go. I've run 160's years ago and always had trouble with foaming in the breathers in any application other than full on racing where I work it to death. Personally I don't like them for daily drivers. 170 kind of depends on how long you can keep the motor at heat per driving cycle. I did okay as I don't turn a key for under a hundred mile drive between stops. Iffy in winter and short hauling. 175 and up is good. 180 F was industry bread and butter for decades. It wasn't a choice for the Ecotec3 series motors thus the 'in hose' housing.  Stant 46158 is a 187 F OEM for your motor. That isn't to hot actually. I mean 7 degrees wouldn't buy you much. (over a 180). Lingenfelter 174 F would be okay too, don't you think?  Either is good. I wouldn't be afraid of the 174 in you area. The Gen IV  Stat is a much MUCH better design than the thing they put in mine. Truth is, if your trip length is so short that it never gets to the trigger point it doesn't matter what stat is in it, right? 

 

Fan's. That is going to be situational. If you have enough reserve radiator capacity it didn't change a thing. My fans are set factory and never turn on but my motor never gets hotter than 192 F that I've ever seen or recorded. Even a 100F day idling for half an hour didn't drive it any higher. Trans made it to 192F. 

 

Say your fans are set to 200 F and you have a 174 F thermostat. If your fan turns on....well.....get your foot out of it. Kidding. You may need more radiator or more pump or more water to glycol and a 'wetter' but the thermostat is out of the equation at that point. Right? 

 

I used the colder thermostat as part of a symphony of changes to effect Peppers fuel program. It's hard to assign a percentage.

 

My motor calls for 5W30. To run *W20 I needed to lower the temperature of the oil enough to bring the operation temperature viscosity up to or higher than the *W30. But it wasn't the only reason. The little motors oil cooler is in the hot side and thus the oil temperature (bulk) runs 20-40 F hotter than the water temperature. As the GM stat in this model is a 207 F that meant my daily oil temperatures  were running 225-250 F! Not in my motor no matter how good anyone claims the oil to be. 210 F under load is hot enough and 195-205 F is sweet. 

 

Once I got the bulk temperatures down reliably I went for the lowest viscosity grade that I could get and keep the bulk oil viscosity at 8-10 cSt. 5W30 at 230 F is thinner than that. I'd use 0W16 if it were available from Red Line. Then I kicked the floor out switching from 5W20 to 0W20. Most of the fuel savings comes from that end of the can when your under power trip lengths between key cycles is under 100 miles. It only helps on longer trips. 

 

The last bits were the trans stat gutting and Group IV trans/diff fluids. More rapid heat up with a higher viscosity INDEX fluid. That too is situational. My trans cooler is single stage and in the cold tank. 

 

Copy the reasons and not the exact recipe. In my case lowering the coolant temperatures lowered the oil temperature as well as lowered the incipient knock threshold. My KR system runs in a lower state of retard that average and my fuel map is a hair richer. 

 

Your layout of coolers and thermostat/fan triggers may require a slightly different strategy but the goals are the same.

 

SAFELY lower fluid temperatures and lower fluid viscosities. I don't want to see my motor oil ever over 212F EVER. 195 F on the trans is my hard limit. I can't tell you what will work exactly for yours James but I can point north. 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

You don't really appreciate how big the cooling towers for a Nuclear plant are until you're parked the at the base of one. Byron Illinois was on the trip ticket. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Grumpy Bear
Better Photo

[CadillacLuke24]

On 6/20/2018 at 9:46 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 How about a list of bulbs you tired, their life span and cost. I got a little confused in the verbiage about what blub lasted how long. 

Sounds like Pepper is doing well, kinda neat to see the transmission pan modification. Man you have to be getting close to the end of your mods list!

 

Sorry for the delay, summer picked up, especially over July

 

Base bulbs will last the longest, but are also the dimmest. Shopping around could get you a pair of bulbs for $.$$

 

Sylvania XtraVision are next up, never run them myself but I've heard they work well. Negligible life penalty for mild output increase.   Again, shopping around would get you a pair in the low teens of dollars

 

Silverstars are next, again I haven't used these, but they also get decent ratings for output and life. I believe you have used these, so you would know what they are like. High teens for price when shopping around.

 

Silverstar Ultras are well regarded as having fantastic visibility, at the penalty of shortened life. I've had some last in my Cadillac for 3 years, or 25k miles. More recently, I've had a set last only 6 months....but over 30k miles, which is 2.5 years for the average bear. Considering Sylvania warranties them for a year, that's not too bad. The performance is worth it, it really opens up your field of vision. Price is high teens to low 20s when shopping around. eBay has many for some nice deals.

 

Then there's Night Breaker Unlimiteds. They lasted a mere 3 months the first go round, over 15k miles, which is a tick over a year for the average bear. Not very long, though Osram (parent company of Sylvania) warrants them for 6 months. 

 

But the output...DAYUM. I was definitely blinding some people at first, I figured they were just that bright, but then a K2XX Silverado flashed me  

 

I have them aimed properly now that I have my second set in (aimed them when they were new to boot), and I have no protesters. Light output is exceptional, and these have lasted nearly 3 months (if I recall correctly). Add to the fact they are $27 with free shipping, and I'm a happy camper. 

 

Ramble over LOL. What's next with Pepper?

[Grumpy Bear]

Hello Luke! Back from China I see... 

 

Silverstars and working nicely. Still on first set. I did have to aim them and I like them allot. I don't do much night driving in 'deer-land' so I expect they will last a bit longer than usual. A Walmart buy. Not disappointed. Did low beams only. Enough congestion around here to prevent much use of the high beams, which frankly aren't that bad IMHO.

 

What's next??? Hum...………. What I would like and what I will get will depend a great deal on my skills as a negotiator. (wife). I have a short list of 'likes' and a short list of 'needs' coming up. You know me, I don't toss much away without wearing it out first then I try to replace it with something that earns it's keep. I guess tires are close to the 'needs' list top. A true-trac and a bit lower gear are on the wish list. I'd like to spruce up the interior a bit as I spend a good deal of time in the cab. Carpet maybe. Some sort of trim enhancement. I like wood grain. A few details to the tune I'd like to play with. Fans and such.   

[swathdiver]

On 8/24/2018 at 12:22 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

POINT1:  James: Let's do the easy one first. The difference between 0W20 and 5W20. The 0W is less viscous when you start your truck in the morning but at running temperature they are the same. That's it. If your already running 5W20 you can't hurt anything switching. Unless your skimming your oil of the waters of the Gulf Coast!!

 

POINT2: 170 kind of depends on how long you can keep the motor at heat per driving cycle. I did okay as I don't turn a key for under a hundred mile drive between stops. Iffy in winter and short hauling. 175 and up is good. 180 F was industry bread and butter for decades. It wasn't a choice for the Ecotec3 series motors thus the 'in hose' housing.  Stant 46158 is a 187 F OEM for your motor. That isn't to hot actually. I mean 7 degrees wouldn't buy you much. (over a 180). Lingenfelter 174 F would be okay too, don't you think?  Either is good. I wouldn't be afraid of the 174 in you area. The Gen IV  Stat is a much MUCH better design than the thing they put in mine. Truth is, if your trip length is so short that it never gets to the trigger point it doesn't matter what stat is in it, right? 

 

Fan's. That is going to be situational. If you have enough reserve radiator capacity it didn't change a thing. My fans are set factory and never turn on but my motor never gets hotter than 192 F that I've ever seen or recorded. Even a 100F day idling for half an hour didn't drive it any higher. Trans made it to 192F. 

 

Say your fans are set to 200 F and you have a 174 F thermostat. If your fan turns on....well.....get your foot out of it. Kidding. You may need more radiator or more pump or more water to glycol and a 'wetter' but the thermostat is out of the equation at that point. Right? 

 

I used the colder thermostat as part of a symphony of changes to effect Peppers fuel program. It's hard to assign a percentage.

 

My motor calls for 5W30. To run *W20 I needed to lower the temperature of the oil enough to bring the operation temperature viscosity up to or higher than the *W30. But it wasn't the only reason. The little motors oil cooler is in the hot side and thus the oil temperature (bulk) runs 20-40 F hotter than the water temperature. As the GM stat in this model is a 207 F that meant my daily oil temperatures  were running 225-250 F! Not in my motor no matter how good anyone claims the oil to be. 210 F under load is hot enough and 195-205 F is sweet. 

 

POINT3: Once I got the bulk temperatures down reliably I went for the lowest viscosity grade that I could get and keep the bulk oil viscosity at 8-10 cSt. 5W30 at 230 F is thinner than that. I'd use 0W16 if it were available from Red Line. Then I kicked the floor out switching from 5W20 to 0W20. Most of the fuel savings comes from that end of the can when your under power trip lengths between key cycles is under 100 miles. It only helps on longer trips. 

 

The last bits were the trans stat gutting and Group IV trans/diff fluids. More rapid heat up with a higher viscosity INDEX fluid. That too is situational. My trans cooler is single stage and in the cold tank. 

 

POINT4: Copy the reasons and not the exact recipe. In my case lowering the coolant temperatures lowered the oil temperature as well as lowered the incipient knock threshold. My KR system runs in a lower state of retard that average and my fuel map is a hair richer. 

 

Your layout of coolers and thermostat/fan triggers may require a slightly different strategy but the goals are the same.

 

SAFELY lower fluid temperatures and lower fluid viscosities. I don't want to see my motor oil ever over 212F EVER. 195 F on the trans is my hard limit. I can't tell you what will work exactly for yours James but I can point north. 

 

 

 

 

POINT1:  Mine has the option of running 0W30 for winter operations but I reckon it could be done at anytime on full synthetic.  The goal then would be to see if this motor will run on 0W20 like its successors.  I hear though that they run a different pump and higher pressures.  My pump is configured for volume and low pressure, 36 psi is the bypass once warmed up.

 

POINT2:  Always a fan of doing things in moderation.  A 180 or 174 thermostat would probably both work well but reliability is even more important.  I cannot set this truck up for my driving style when my wife and children drive it and will be driving it after I've gone on to Glory.  Determing the oil temperature in various conditions is needed and plan to do that shortly.  The fans are programmed to turn on at differing speeds for a host of reasons.  I believe they are still set to factory limits.

 

Point3:  The 8 to 10 C,st is between viscosities of 20W and 30W.  I think 9.3 is the cut off between the two at 212 degrees.  My transmission spends most of its time in the 150s while driving and creeps up to 170s after coming off the highway before cooling back down.  Only on the hottest days, drag racing or off-roading has it seen 180s-190s.

 

Point4:  Couldn't agree with you more, they are similar but not the same.  Our goals are similar but not exactly the same.  And I agree temps need to come down first, if necessary, before the viscosity is addressed.

 

Thanks Marty!

On 8/26/2018 at 10:10 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

You don't really appreciate how big the cooling towers for a Nuclear plant are until you're parked the at the base of one. Byron Illinois was on the trip ticket. 

 

 

This keyboard is powered by nukes, we're eight miles as the crow flies from ours.  Drive past them to go fishing but never that close!  I do know people there and wonder if we could get a tour with the kids?  In my youth I was around plenty of nukes when the subs and cruisers and carriers came to port.  

[Black02Silverado]

Just an FYI, but I'm running AMSOIL's SS 0w-20 in my 2002 Silverado with the 5.3 right now with no issues. The truck has 183k miles on it and no consumption.  I don't see any mpg difference but then I'm not really trying to get better mpg by the way I drive and running E85. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Thanks Cadillac Luke! James this is the data you asked for some time ago. Luke tagged it with a  like to point me to it. Cross post from July 16, 2018 Quantum Leaps thread. 

 

Before we had many warm days this year I did a service dump, filter and fill of the trans with Red Line D6. A 50/50 then of the factory fill Delco and Red Line. The next eleven tanks averaged 2 mpg over Peppers life time average with a lot less tank to tank variation. Some data noise suppression likely due to the level and less tank to tank variation. The increase...a seasonal change in average ambient temperatures in part and the higher lubricity and slightly lower viscosity of Red Line D6. The next five tanks would up the ante another mpg, 29.5 mpg as the trans stat was bypassed allowing not only more rapid heating due to a more advantageous temperature. The next change saw a switch from 5W20 to 0W20 and four tanks around 30.3 mpg...then...the thermostat failure crashed two tanks as I awaited parts for a new plan of attack. A slightly higher water temperature (10F) and a more stable and reliable thermostat. Running a bit faster and with the AC as peak summer temps arrive has Pepper at 29.94 mpg. 

 

The AFM is on most of the time and that was the plan to increase switched on time to the maximum via perfecting viscosity through a combination of heat management and viscosity choice. Mission accomplished. I will be at the mercy of the weather and my convictions from this point forward. 

 

I actually expect to backslide a few mpg as I start increasing speeds further and use of the air for the seasons remainder more often. 

 

While all the summer data is yet to be collected, August ends my summer frame, to date Pepper is  8.7% above 2017 summer months. 8.6% above the running averages initial values thus seeing a 16.2% increase in the 24 point moving average over last summer and a whooping 25.8% Increase in here best 6 point moving average.

 

All this while increasing average road speed about 5 mph and prudent use of the AC unit.

 

Most of these increases are the result of quicker heat ups to more stable running temperatures. Something I will continue to refine.

 

Truth is, I've plucked most of the low hanging fruit.

 

Odd side note. After a 400 mile trip today that resulted in 29.5 mpg, I was disappointed. Really disappointed in a tank under 30 mpg. I'm loosing it.  

[Grumpy Bear]

Summer numbers are in! 

 

29.36 mpg for the summer. Up 7.2% over the summer of (2017: 27.24 mpg). 

26.92 Life time average up from 2017's peak of 26.72 or 1%. 

29.32 the month end 24 tank moving average which has been at or above 29.0 mpg since July 13, 2018.

 

[CadillacLuke24]

Those are downright impressive numbers for a 1500 truck in general. Nicely done!

 

Coming back from Gillette early friday morning I was VERY thankful for my high beams. Deer were out in force. And right at the side of the road. Funny thing is (or not, depending on how you look at it), is that they are so used to people that a 5500 lb Chevy flying by at 70 barely warrants a look up. Not often do I get one that decides to dart. The concerning thing is I saw one on the center line. Fortunately that was at a two lane section, but still. 

 

What's on the short list for tires? I see you've had excellent luck with the factory tires. Boy 5k rotations sure pay off. Been doing that for the entirety of the life of my Michelins and they have worn exceptionally well. Will have to get some measurements to see how well. 

 

I know the LTZ trucks have wood grain trim on the doors, not sure if that would retrofit into a regular cab, but just a thought. On the other hand, you could replicate the effect with vinyl overlays. Then there's the completely custom route, I had a sweet Chevrolet nameplate made by Emblem Pros (he's GM licensed, does great work) that I stuck on my glovebox. Similar to what I put in my Cadillac, and it looks GREAT.

[Grumpy Bear]

Ah Eastern Wyoming! I have stories about that area of the world where the deer and the antelope play.    I've ridden over an hour and never saw a single car. There's a place a guy can use all the light he can hang off her. 

 

Short list of tires. I'm having a hard time finding any fault with these Bridgestone. Even with as many miles as I have on them silent as the grave. Cabin readings are under 70 db. Work well in the rain and dry and I don't drive much in the winter so not a feature I care much about. Braking is great. That said there are a few I keep looking at in addition to these Bridgestone (in order):

 

Pirelli Scorpion Verde All Season Plus

Continental Cross Contact LX20

Yokohama Geolandar H/T GO56

 

Just started thinking about the inside so haven't done much looking yet. 

 

Just did the 50K service on my Lacrosse and the bill set me back enough to put this on the back burner for awhile. Property taxes and all are due.  

 

Here's one for the books while I'm on a roll. The air bag seat cushion passenger side.....is a....drum roll please.....$1,300 part!!!!! 2009 CXL. Extortion!   If ever there was a case for courts there is one. These are variable voltage not resistance driven systems like most everyone else. There is no work around we have been able to find....yet. Greed stinks! 

 

 

 

[swathdiver]

Why not stick with the Bridgestones?  

[Grumpy Bear]

12 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Why not stick with the Bridgestones?  

I may. All of the tires on the short list are priced close. It may come down to $$$$, delivery, availability. My desire with the next set is to save some wheel weight and loose some rolling resistance. Question is can I find reliable information on those topics. I'm pretty sure I will downsize the tire to 245/70R17. That's good for a few pounds per wheel regardless. I also have a longer term goal for engine rpm that I can't get on gear alone where a slightly shorter tire will be of aid. As you can see I'm in the 'think tank' mode. 

[swathdiver]

I was never a fan of Bridgestones but it is hard to argue against those that are on your truck.  Michelin is probably better and they do offer low rolling resistance models.  What size are you currently running?

 

I took mine out tonight for some mileage tests, thought I had loaded the new tunes from BlackBear but didn't do it right, I think.  Anyhow, at 70 she averaged 18.24 in 6th (five samples taken).  One sample was taken in M5 at 70 for quite a ways and she averaged a rock solid 17.5 mpg.  

 

Without an inclination gauge it's tough to make sure we're flat and level.  I'm thinking about calling up the LOAD and Torque Settings at the differing speeds and basing the numbers off them.  

 

When installing the tunes again, the prompts were slightly different this time so I think I did it right.  However, it had rained and the roads are now wet which would skew the numbers so it'll have to wait another day.