Grumpy Bears 2015 Silverado 2WD

[Grumpy Bear]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:40 AM, mookdoc6 said:

 I netted 24.1 MPG's at 60-65 mph for 500+ miles.

 

Wow.....all that nonsense and your Cooler for Trans and Engine are 10f cooler than mine...LOL  

8/8/2018 trip. 365 miles / 12.104 gallons = 30.2 mpg at 62 mph (100 kph) . Measured and metered. 

 

Day 84 F. 86 F AIT, Trans 150-154 F, ECT 182-184 F, Oil 206-208 F. It will hold these number on even a 100 F day.

 

Factory water thermostat is 207F. Unless it's stuck open coolant temperature can not be lower than that. Sure you want to claim it only 10 degree warmer? Your at 192 F? Really? Closer to 210-212 F, 25+ degrees higher is more like it. 

 

I'll need an explanation of how your transmission holds low to mid 160's (10 over mine) on a hundred degree day for 500 miles with the factory trans cooler in the hot tank and the factory thermostat. The factory set up will run near 200 F in the winter at 0 F in about 100 miles. Your not on the cooler until the thermostat opens. Something well north of 165 F. 20-30 F more. Something is amiss......

 

Like the idea that saying a thing so makes it so perhaps. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mookdoc6]

8 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

8/8/2018 trip. 365 miles / 12.104 gallons = 30.2 mpg at 62 mph (100 kph) . Measured and metered. 

 

Day 84 F. 86 F AIT, Trans 150-154 F, ECT 182-184 F, Oil 206-208 F. It will hold these number on even a 100 F day.

 

Factory water thermostat is 207F. Unless it's stuck open coolant temperature can not be lower than that. Sure you want to claim it only 10 degree warmer? Your at 192 F? Really? Closer to 210-212 F, 25+ degrees higher is more like it. 

 

I'll need an explanation of how your transmission holds low to mid 160's (10 over mine) on a hundred degree day for 500 miles with the factory trans cooler in the hot tank and the factory thermostat. The factory set up will run near 200 F in the winter at 0 F in about 100 miles. Your not on the cooler until the thermostat opens. Something well north of 165 F. 20-30 F more. Something is amiss......

 

Like the idea that saying a thing so makes it so perhaps. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Grumps,

 

Reading my DIC Trans Temp after driving 45 minutes in Blistering 115f temps read 165f............Maybe I open my mouth to early?  Week or two later I notice I am 20-25f off on cold soaked engine?  I will let you know after receiving the Temperature sensor and replacing it If fixes my concern?  Thanks for nothing............

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, mookdoc6 said:

Grumps,

 

Reading my DIC Trans Temp after driving 45 minutes in Blistering 115f temps read 165f............Maybe I open my mouth to early?  Week or two later I notice I am 20-25f off on cold soaked engine?  I will let you know after receiving the Temperature sensor and replacing it If fixes my concern?  Thanks for nothing............

Your welcome for nothing. I think.....

 

Not looking for a fight Mook, looking for accurate information to flow in BOTH directions. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have enough time or money left to waste either. 

 

It didn't hit me when you first posted how odd the claim was based solely on the thermostat settings. I reacted to the delivery and not the information. My bad and I apologize. I commend you for manning up and sharing there may be an input issue. Oddly, the exchange seems to be for 'something' then, eh?  

 

Something else had to be amiss. Looks like there are several issues. Yes the sensor; but also an understanding of the differing truck systems and TIME.  You can slap a hot iron and not burn your fingers but you can't hold them their for long. 45 minutes isn't long enough I would expect. It wasn't for mine. Use to take about 90 minutes on a hot day and over two hours in mid winter. Since the Thermostat was modified it takes about 20 miles on a warm day. We well see about winter but I expect it to take much less time as the cooler is a heater until the fluid reaches water temperature. The biggest reason I did it. Rapid warm ups. Get those fluids to operating temperature and lessen the viscous drag. 

 

Yes we get 100+ days here. Just not as many of them thankfully. 85 F seems about normal here. 

 

John A (a member here) was very helpful and squared me up on the differences between the V6 and V8 systems and they vary some by year in the K2 line. I believe he mentioned that the trans stat in the V8 is about 10 F colder than the 192 F in the V6 models as well? You could PM him and check that if your interested. His knowledge is greater than mine on these system. I know Pepper very well  but he knows the entire lineup. 

[mookdoc6]

59 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Your welcome for nothing. I think.....

 

Not looking for a fight Mook, looking for accurate information to flow in BOTH directions. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have enough time or money left to waste either. 

 

It didn't hit me when you first posted how odd the claim was based solely on the thermostat settings. I reacted to the delivery and not the information. My bad and I apologize. I commend you for manning up and sharing there may be an input issue. Oddly, the exchange seems to be for 'something' then, eh?  

 

Something else had to be amiss. Looks like there are several issues. Yes the sensor; but also an understanding of the differing truck systems and TIME.  You can slap a hot iron and not burn your fingers but you can't hold them their for long. 45 minutes isn't long enough I would expect. It wasn't for mine. Use to take about 90 minutes on a hot day and over two hours in mid winter. Since the Thermostat was modified it takes about 20 miles on a warm day. We well see about winter but I expect it to take much less time as the cooler is a heater until the fluid reaches water temperature. The biggest reason I did it. Rapid warm ups. Get those fluids to operating temperature and lessen the viscous drag. 

 

Yes we get 100+ days here. Just not as many of them thankfully. 85 F seems about normal here. 

 

John A (a member here) was very helpful and squared me up on the differences between the V6 and V8 systems and they vary some by year in the K2 line. I believe he mentioned that the trans stat in the V8 is about 10 F colder than the 192 F in the V6 models as well? You could PM him and check that if your interested. His knowledge is greater than mine on these system. I know Pepper very well  but he knows the entire lineup. 

I will investigate the issue?  Report back after the fluid sensor is changed out.....Stranger things have happened I guess than a fluid temperature sensor always reading 20-25f cooler than it should be?  Everything runs fine....... 

[Grumpy Bear]

http://transmissionrepairguy.com/transmission-temperature-gauge/

 

Spurshot posted this link in another thread. This is a great resource I wanted to preserve for quick reference.

 

This isn't transmission life. It's transmission fluid life and fluid is the life of the transmission.

 

When the boys did the pan install they let Pepper idle for a half hour. The time it took to peak the transmission temperature with the 180 F coolant thermostat and gutted trans stat. That temperature was 192 F. It use to peak on a hot day over 225 F unloaded Interstate speed temperatures. Worse on State roads on long steep grades. First change came at 50K and it was mildly discolored but odor free. Now I know why the book says 45K. Oh am I ever glad that I drive the way I did for those first 50,000 miles. 

 

To me that says GM knows the even with their Group III Dexron 6 synthetic fluid they recognize there is a limit to mineral oil...even good ones. An admission by procedure. It's why in addition to coolers and lower thermostats I use Ester/POA blended fluids. Highest I've seen 'in service' has been in town after a few hours on the Interstate. I leave the big road between 150 and 156 F but a few minutes of reduced pump rate through the exchanger elevates it to about 175 F. Perfect!!   

 

 

[swathdiver]

Does that chart pre-date synthetic fluids?

 

I posted this on another forum with regards to the 6L80E used in the GMT900s:

 

2007-2014 GMT900 SUV

 

The 6L80s normal operating temperature is between 160 and 200 degrees. This corresponds with the HOT check on the dipstick when checking the fluid level. Cold check temperatures are between 80 and 90 degrees and also have a corresponding mark on the dipstick; mine anyway.

 

The temperature range for the Service Fast Learn Adapts procedure is 158-212 degrees.

 

If the transmission's temperature reaches 266 degrees for 5 seconds the "Transmission Hot Idle Engine" warning will display on the DIC.

 

Code P0218 (Transmission Fluid Overtemperature) will set if the fluid is greater than 270 degrees for one minute. On a side note, the shop manual says trailer towing should occur in D4 to ensure the cooling system functions normally.

 

The Flash Point for AC Delco's Dexron VI fluid is 401 degrees.

 

There is a transmission oil life monitor within the Transmission Control Module and is visible and able to be reset with the Tech2. I reckon that it is also based on engine revolutions and transmission temperature, similar to the Engine Oil Life System.

 

As for operations, while driving on the highway at 75 mph on a 92 degree day, the transmission temperature will be 156 degrees.  Same speed at 82 degrees it will be 151 degrees.  Coming off the highway and into stop and go traffic it will climb into the 170s (176 usually).  The day the fluid was changed, and driving home from the dealer, it was over 100 degrees outside and driving in stop and go rush-hour type traffic, the temperature crept up to 196 but never got close to that again.  The internal fluid life monitor still said 27% if memory serves when the fluid was changed at 117K.  I have pretty good records from the previous owner but none showing transmission service.  Approaching 130K now, the transmission oil life monitor still has it in the 90s last time I checked.  I am thinking of sending a sample off to Blackstone-Labs.

[Black02Silverado]

Interesting.  My Cruze diesel trans temp runs at 225°F.  I changed it out to AMSOIL when I got it used at 15k.  I just did another change out at 55k miles.  Looks like I was on the money for fluid life although I did do a UOA on it and it came back looking good.

[Grumpy Bear]

James, interesting that your temperatures are all below my old thermostat trigger point of 192F which makes me wonder if your pre K2XX even has a thermostat. My box after gutting the thermostat housing is running almost identical to yours. What engine coolant thermostat does yours have and does yours have more fluid cooler than the internal tank exchanger? That is, a secondary air/fluid exchanger factory or otherwise.  

 

As far at the chart predating synthetics. Well...synthetics have been around a long time now. Amsoil has been into synthetic products since 1972, right Nick? In the 70's manufactures discontinued using whale oils as friction modifiers in ATF. Those burn very quickly. 1972 is about the year they started upping the coolant temperatures for emissions which killed the whale oils quickly. I can't be dogmatic about it but I would have to say this chart is post the whale oil era. We were still using it at Chevron in the 80's.

 

There is also this. The very term synthetic has been dumbed down so hard it hardly means anything today. It use to mean any lubricant not derived from mineral oil. Now you can hydro-finish a group 2 stock and call it a synthetic. You can put a truck load of Group I, if it is the carrier oil for the add pack, into an POA and still call it a synthetic even if the add pack is 30% of the can. Saturating the carbon bonds certainly helps delay oxidation but it does not prevent it. 

 

This game they play with the word synthetic is the very reason I use Group IV/V fluids. Delco is a group III syn. I have no idea what Amsoil is. Redline I know and have been using their products for about 25 years. I would expect Delco syn is covered by this chart. GM's thermostat choices and change intervals are dead in line with this chart and a group III syn.   

 

   

[swathdiver]

I thought GM stopped using whale oil sometime in the 1950s or early 1960s; whenever the Hydramatics were introduced.  Dexron VI came out around 2005 or so, I had an '06 Montana that was spec'd for it but not the '04.  But you're right, there were other synthetic transmission fluids before then.  I am not familiar with these terms, group level fluids, will have to look that up and check out Redline again.

 

No thermostat on the GMT900 transmission.  My particular truck has the K5L, Enhanced Cooling Package with the KNP, external transmission cooler.  The thermostat is called a 187 degree.  Begins to open at 188 and is fully open by 206.  Most of the time the temperature is rock solid at 192 but have seen it at 196 a couple of times.  I considered putting in a lower temperature but wanted to learn more about these modern systems. 

 

In the old days that was the first thing we did, cut off the hot water to the intakes and throttle bodies, vented the valve covers and put in 160 thermostats.  My 425 RWHP Buick GN drove around at 154 with a 160 thermostat unless we were racing, and that was during summer.         

[Black02Silverado]

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

James, interesting that your temperatures are all below my old thermostat trigger point of 192F which makes me wonder if your pre K2XX even has a thermostat. My box after gutting the thermostat housing is running almost identical to yours. What engine coolant thermostat does yours have and does yours have more fluid cooler than the internal tank exchanger? That is, a secondary air/fluid exchanger factory or otherwise.  

 

As far at the chart predating synthetics. Well...synthetics have been around a long time now. Amsoil has been into synthetic products since 1972, right Nick? In the 70's manufactures discontinued using whale oils as friction modifiers in ATF. Those burn very quickly. 1972 is about the year they started upping the coolant temperatures for emissions which killed the whale oils quickly. I can't be dogmatic about it but I would have to say this chart is post the whale oil era. We were still using it at Chevron in the 80's.

 

There is also this. The very term synthetic has been dumbed down so hard it hardly means anything today. It use to mean any lubricant not derived from mineral oil. Now you can hydro-finish a group 2 stock and call it a synthetic. You can put a truck load of Group I, if it is the carrier oil for the add pack, into an POA and still call it a synthetic even if the add pack is 30% of the can. Saturating the carbon bonds certainly helps delay oxidation but it does not prevent it. 

 

This game they play with the word synthetic is the very reason I use Group IV/V fluids. Delco is a group III syn. I have no idea what Amsoil is. Redline I know and have been using their products for about 25 years. I would expect Delco syn is covered by this chart. GM's thermostat choices and change intervals are dead in line with this chart and a group III syn.   

 

   

Yes, synthetics have been around a long time.  Even before 1972. It is that AMSOIL was the first to market an API certified synthetic. No other manufacture at the time had an API certified one.    AMSOIL's Signature Series is a group IV PAO, their OE and XL are group III.  So the Signature Series ATF and ATL (dexron VI and HP) is a full PAO based synthetic, the OE, ATF and ATL are group III, thus the lower cost for these products.

[Grumpy Bear]

Here's some info James from Wikipedia: In the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, ATF contained whale oil as a friction modifier. But since whale oil would break down at higher temperatures, cars produced in the 1970s and later would not be able to use whale oil because of the higher engine coolant temperatures employed to reduce emissions and save fuel. A moratorium on whale oil at that time prevented the continued production of older ATF such as the original DEXRON formulation (Type B), and the Type A which preceded it.

 

And at this point I need to make a clarification. I said: "The very term synthetic has been dumbed down so hard it hardly means anything today. It use to mean any lubricant not derived from mineral oil".

 

That should read: It use to mean any lubricant  not derived from a naturally occurring substance. PAO's are indeed a synthetic produced from Olefins which are manufactured from mineral oil but not naturally occurring thus....synthesized. It's kind of what the word means. 

 

When a Group III is hydrotreated the carbon bonds are fully filled. The new molecules however are also naturally occurring. I don't consider them a synthetic.  Nothing has been synthesized. The deck was just shuffled after adding more aces and removing the duces.

 

The Government disagrees and sides with the Oil Lobby. This muddies the water to the point you haven't a clue what's what unless the manufacture is forthcoming. I.E. Amsoil and Red Line don't mind telling you what the base stocks are thus...I use them. Mobil lied by omission thus I kick them to the curb. 

 

Anyway back to you James. Thank you for the specifics of your system. I figured you had to have at least one additional cooler. This gives me a tangible value for future work on this system. That is very helpful. 

 

Nick thanks for the breakdown. You've been very helpful. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 11:52 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

http://transmissionrepairguy.com/transmission-temperature-gauge/

I believe we focus hard on what heat does to the fluid and miss what heat does to operation and component life. Things such as seal hardening which happens regardless of the fluid you use. Plate slip (glazing). Plates burning up as well as seals burning up. Varnish and carbonizing are fluid related. These others...the goose has been cooked and it doesn't matter what oil it was cooked in. Peanut oil anyone?

 

Those are heat related materials failures.

 

The thermostat GM devised for the 6L80E is a odd bird. It hasn't a minimum flow to the cooler system thus relies on working the fluid to bring the system to heat. 192F is the beginning of the opening but it is over 203F before it is fully open. (I checked). It is also highly restrictive so even fully open it limits flow to the cooling system. They are crowding the component failure points especially for valve body piston and servo seals, to run the fluid to as low a heat related viscosity as possible to enhance fuel efficiency. Playing with a two headed rattlesnake. 

 

I'm a fuel efficiency sort of guy but not at the expense of component life. AS delivered and as I've mention numerous times my fluid temperatures were 200/225 F on warm days running. They spike higher during the hot soak that comes after shut down.

 

Did you guys notice the trigger points James provided that GM has coded to the TMC? 266 F for FIVE seconds for a warning. (look at the chart). 270 F for ONE minute for the alarm? That should give you an indication of how much higher GM believes these so called "Synthetic" Group III fluids have pushed the oxidation limits. Not far. Use of a PAO or an Ester/PAO blend is prudent especially if your going to rely on the factory thermostat and single imbedded radiator cooler arrangement. I'm a belt and suspenders sort of fellow. I do both. It will save the oil but not the seals. They are ringing the alarm after the school burns down. Thus the coolers and lower stat settings. 

 

Last consideration. This chart is 'bulk oil temperature" in the pan. Temperatures in running components such as gear teeth and converter vanes are quite a bit higher. Under heavy loading one can burn a fluid even when the bulk oil temperatures are low enough to be considered safe. Your not going to hurt that box by running it colder than 175F. It has full 'normal' function anytime over 100F. Not that I'm saying that is the target. Just saying I'm not concerned if it's below 160 F as mine is. I like cushion. 

 

Your results may vary!!! 

 

Yea, it's two am and I am doing the can't sleep ramble. 

[Grumpy Bear]

I wonder sometimes if these Bridgestone's will ever wear out or become to hard to be safe. Eventually I guess...right? Sneaking up on 75,000 miles and I'm asking myself what more I could possible ask from a truck street tire and I honestly don't know. It's hard to know for a certainty what a different tire will do with all the differing opinions. I don't play nice with opinion and yet hard data is hard to come by unless you generate it yourself.

 

I'm playing with my gauge pack installed on my phone and finally figured out the sound meter. It was kind of a big deal given the wind turbine noise regulations we have around here that seemed...a bit left field? No matter actually it was just the pointed stick I needed to give the device a harder look.

 

Put 2 and 2 together and???? Yea, cabin noise.... Part of cabin noise is tire noise. Part is wind noise. Part is mechanical noise and part of it is how well the cabin insulates you from those noises. I needed a baseline so....we drive

 

55 mph, windows up unbroken blacktop generated a sound level of 69 db. Impressive. 60 mph and as before 72 db. Rough concrete 75 and 80 db. respectfully. Windows down 80 - 87 depending on how far down. Getting a bit noisy. Okay windows back up and hammer time. Intake and exhaust noise at the top of several gears comes in around 85 db. Pretty quite truck. Oh yes I tried the wife's Terrain with the Michelin's and got about the same numbers. Not enough difference to call a difference really. Of course the cabin is different and the insulation I expect a bit different but they are both stock and both at about the same noise levels. Sounds like a company target number. If I ever get my Buick back I'll give that a go. My ears say it's quitter but my ears said my truck was quitter than the wife's SUV too and I was wrong. My ears ring like Ma Bell. Quite is important as the sound in my head is amplified by ambient noises. Sound like a project some of the Audio guys might weigh in on...eh? I am not a sound engineer. If I needed something quieter I smothered it. 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Grumpy Bear

[swathdiver]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

My ears ring like Ma Bell.

 

Mine ring like two J-79s warming up before taxiing!  LOL  Even with the whine and loss of some sounds, they are getting more sensitive.  Sounds contradictory but I do not know how else to explain it.  Have yet to see a doctor about it, too many other problems.

[Grumpy Bear]

Yea, one week to go for my summer numbers but.....27 mpg life time average is possible. Even eminent. 

 

The results of two years worth of data based implementation of cooling systems modifications and lubrication choices.