Oil Change Cost

danielLD · June 13, 2017

You are correct. GM uses a lot of copper in engine design, specifically in the form of brass. High copper early on is normal, and not only from cooler. it would only be a concern in respect to bearings if there was also elevated levels of lead and tin to go along with it. Bearings are multi metal.

Silicon seems a bit high for 10K miles. Getting some dirt in there. Using a high flow air filter?

Wear metal numbers pretty good. Should settle down a little over time. Still early in the game for that engine.

you definately have some fuel dilution taking place that is contributing to some of the wear, probably 2.5% and definately not 0%. The viscosity is holding up but that's because the M1 viscosity improvers are pretty good. The oil is doing a good job but it's becoming abrasive, your insolubles for a new engine should not be 0.2%, that's too high. Your air filter should be changed if it hasn't already. This engine is taking a pounding, like a serious one, and the chromium and copper are evident of that. This engine probably never seated correctly either. Do you have more UOA?

I would bring that interval down.

Cowpie · June 13, 2017

The only way to determine if the wear metals are too high, i.e. the "engine is taking a pounding", is to know the wear metal limits that are part of the engine design. We can't really get that from GM. For my commercial vehicles, I have detailed wear limit and insoluble limit numbers as espoused in the OEM's lubrication manuals on their engines. A 24 particle count on iron is hardly excessive. Sure, it is a tad higher than the typical 17-18 iron particle count that my Detroit 12.7L Series 60 engine experiences, but the wear limits on that engine are an iron level exceeding 200 ppm. We are not privy to what GM feels is the limit on iron particle count. Insolubles at .2% is not really excessive. Typical diesel engines get levels of 2-3% and go to over 1 million miles. Actually, the insoluble level corresponds pretty well to the fuel dilution that is shown, as insolubles are primarily from unburned particulates from combustion. Chromium level of 2 is barely worth considering. Again, it is all the wear metals levels, in relation to each other, that determines if a problem is going on.

The last sample showed a .5% fuel dilution. But one must also look at the viscosity of the sample. The sample clearly has a viscosity that is well within the acceptable range for a 20w oil. So fuel dilution is not as severe as you would imply. Else there would be a definite hit on oil viscosity. Viscosity modifiers cannot compensate for fuel thinning of a motor oil.

Every GM engine of late that I have seen samples on show elevated levels of copper. As I stated, GM loves using a lot of copper in their engines, specifically brass. This sample is from an engine early in the game. The key to good sample analysis is tracking several samples over time and seeing how the trend lines are developing. One sample does not a detailed analysis make. Copper levels in subsequent samples should decrease over time and the trend line level out.

The TBN has reached a 1/3 level of what it started with, and that is my comfort zone. Many industry lubrication specialists feel that a TBN of 1/3 of what the oil started with is the longest a oil should be used, unless a TAN test is also done for comparison. Most used oil samples, people don't fork over the additional cost for the TAN test.

But i would have to concur on the air filter. Too much dirt getting by (silicon). If using a aftermarket high flow air filter... ditch it. The stock AC Delco filter is the best thing one can use.

A good article on this...

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

danielLD · June 13, 2017

The only way to determine if the wear metals are too high, i.e. the "engine is taking a pounding", is to know the wear metal limits that are part of the engine design. We can't really get that from GM. For my commercial vehicles, I have detailed wear limit and insoluble limit numbers as espoused in the OEM's lubrication manuals on their engines. A 24 particle count on iron is hardly excessive. Sure, it is a tad higher than the typical 17-18 iron particle count that my Detroit 12.7L Series 60 engine experiences, but the wear limits on that engine are an iron level exceeding 200 ppm. We are not privy to what GM feels is the limit on iron particle count.

The last sample showed a .5% fuel dilution. But one must also look at the viscosity of the sample. The sample clearly has a viscosity that is well within the acceptable range for a 20w oil. So fuel dilution is not as severe as you would imply. Else there would be a definite hit on oil viscosity. Viscosity modifiers cannot compensate for fuel thinning of a motor oil.

Every GM engine of late that I have seen samples on show elevated levels of copper. As I stated, GM loves using a lot of copper in their engines, specifically brass. This sample is from an engine early in the game. The key to good sample analysis is tracking several samples over time and seeing how the trend lines are developing. One sample does not a detailed analysis make.

Seeing chromium and his copper at that level are elevated. I have a current GM tribologist friend who went to school with a friend of mine, I occasionaly speak to, so I can get insights when need be.

That fuel dilution of <0.5% is off and a bad reading. The viscosity improvers in the M1EP will mask this really well, and does a good job of mitigating acid causing issues. The reading is likely 2.5%+, flash point is an easy indicator he has fuel dilution taking place. Blackstone uses a method called open flash cup that I have never seen accurately show fuel %. They under report fuel % like you would not believe.

This amount of copper should be lower by now. The break in wear should have been well out by now. I don't think this engine was broken in properly, but need more data.

And the insolubles are too high, although this is likely due to filtration issues.

You don't need trending but this analysis is severly limited as there is no FTIR, GC, KF and TAN data. One can get a really good snap shot from one sample if you have the right testing and knowledge in interpreting those numbers. Unfornately I've only done corvette and camaro testing for GM vehicles and have done 6-8 GM pick ups. I don't have enough background to state where that copper came from or enough UOA to point it where. But I can say it's getting strained and likely due to FD taking place over 10,000 miles.

Cowpie · June 13, 2017

I respectfully disagree. While I am not a tribologist (though I was exposed quite heavily to a scientific discipline in college), I have analyzed hundreds of samples over many years taken from engines I have owned from many different OEM's and taken many engines to well over 1 million miles without a major repair. Analysis does indeed require tracking several samples over time and seeing trend lines that develop to adequately determine a particular engine / oil combination. No two engines are identical, and even different oils in an engine will skew the results one way or the other since there are variations in additive packages between oil brands.

danielLD · June 13, 2017

The viscosity improvers in M1, especially M1EP will keep that viscosity up even though the oil is becoming diluted. I have many more M1 samples showing FD via GC at 7%, yet the viscosity almost held up like new. I'll merely say this, explain that drop in the flash point if it hasn't been diluted with fuel.

You do not need trending to do an analysis, often times trending is too late to do anything beneficial.

The TBN is fine, but that could be do to the boosters in the chemistry, the FTIR would show active antiwear at extreme pressure, which is equally as important. It's missing information as we don't know where the oil sits in terms of acidity.

mookdoc6 · June 13, 2017

This is all great fodder on my recent Used Oil Analysis!

I think by looking at report, although only being "one snapshot of this particular engines life" it clearly shows an engine "broke in properly and still actually being broke in" Blackstone is the authority and the database to analyze/cross reference this engine to many others exactly like it. We are all just Bull-Shitters on a internet forum although many have years/decades of real world experiences and knowledge none of which I contest, but only thank for sharing!

I have not a Silicon problem, although by looking at one element you would think so. Notice there is no high Aluminum so therefore I am not ingesting dirt or changing the engine air-filter to AC Delco, I already change the filter enough. The Mobil 0W-20 Extended Performance oil probably registers 10-15 ppm "Virgin Never Used" for Silicon and it should for it's not so much anti foaming but Collapsing of the foam properties. As another poster mentioned "what about the additives" Yup, I pour a can of BG-MOA in the crankcase notice the exceptionally high levels of Zn,Mg,Ca and P! The Silcon is high but completely harmless and Blackstone makes no mention of it because they obviously know it's not DIRT! If I were to omit the BG-109 the Silicon would drop to 10-15 ppm easily and the other fortifiers would to........

As for the Insolubles % it's perfectly normal for GDI and expected I bet I bounce from .1-.4 all through out engines life not even a concern.

So 10K is now going to be 12K on this engine and I am perfectly fine with it. Blackstone agrees it seems and since they have much more a handle on this than myself I think I will take their recommendation over anybody else's....

I think we should just have UOA thread just for our comparisons?

danielLD · June 13, 2017

This is all great fodder on my recent Used Oil Analysis!

I think by looking at report, although only being "one snapshot of this particular engines life" it clearly shows an engine "broke in properly and still actually being broke in" Blackstone is the authority and the database to analyze/cross reference this engine to many others exactly like it. We are all just Bull-Shitters on a internet forum although many have years/decades of real world experiences and knowledge none of which I contest, but only thank for sharing!

I have not a Silicon problem, although by looking at one element you would think so. Notice there is no high Aluminum so therefore I am not ingesting dirt or changing the engine air-filter to AC Delco, I already change the filter enough. The Mobil 0W-20 Extended Performance oil probably registers 10-15 ppm "Virgin Never Used" for Silicon and it should for it's not so much anti foaming but Collapsing of the foam properties. As another poster mentioned "what about the additives" Yup, I pour a can of BG-MOA in the crankcase notice the exceptionally high levels of Zn,Mg,Ca and P! The Silcon is high but completely harmless and Blackstone makes no mention of it because they obviously know it's not DIRT! If I were to omit the BG-109 the Silicon would drop to 10-15 ppm easily and the other fortifiers would to........

As for the Insolubles % it's perfectly normal for GDI and expected I bet I bounce from .1-.4 all through out engines life not even a concern.

So 10K is now going to be 12K on this engine and I am perfectly fine with it. Blackstone agrees it seems and since they have much more a handle on this than myself I think I will take their recommendation over anybody else's....

I think we should just have UOA thread just for our comparisons?

Mook, as an industry worker in UOA, having been trained by some of the best in this business. I can respectfully tell you, Blackstone has no idea what they are talking about in 99% of any UOA. They frequently make the dumbest statements I have ever seen. They are experts at destroying people's engines.

Your insolubles should be 0.1% on a new engine, plain and simple. You can't tell you have active additve from your UOA, impossible with Blackstone's lack of equipment and ability to do anything right. Elemental values mean nothing, you don't know if that additive has been sheered.

Aluminum does not go hand in hand with silicon. It can and it can't. In your situation it's not and in most it doesn't. The silicon value on M1EP is 5, new.

Your engine should have been broken in by 5K, if you're still breaking in your engine at 30k you have issues as evidenced.

You're going to destroy that engine in due time and I am going to sit back and think what I could have said differently to prove to you otherwise.

Daniel.

mookdoc6 · June 13, 2017

Daniel,

Thanks for the response...Where would advise myself to send the UOA? To your garage/Lab etc..... I am open for suggestions

Your engine should have been broken in by 5K, if you're still breaking in your engine at 30k you have issues as evidenced.

You're going to destroy that engine in due time and I am going to sit back and think what I could have said differently to prove to you otherwise.

danielLD · June 13, 2017

For a second I thought you said garbage lab. lol My lab is so bad with consumers, it's not even funny, the average turn around time for a joe off the street is horrible, I wouldn't recommend it to you unless you were doing $20,000 a month in volume. Even then the automated system is so bad, it tells you irrelevant stuff.

Well although I'm not affliated to Dyson Analysis, their basic analysis is what I would recommend, you can try the advanced but I'll give you an inside note, Terry looks at every oil sample, meaning even when you get the basic, you're really getting an advanced. He may try to make it seem otherwise but you always get the advanced. The advanced quite frankly at $160, I'll leave you to make up your mind, but the basic once a year is very well worth it's cost.

You want a reliable ICP source, which Blackstone doesn't do bad on this but they've never been certified because everything they do is substandard to consumers who know nothing about oil analysis. You'll want FTIR, while you can have 30,000 ppm of zinc/phos, you don't know if that reflects active additive and not sheered/depleted additive. You want to see your timing conditions, fueling, spark and combustion efficiency on the engine. Only FTIR provides this data as it's looking at the oil at the molecular level rather than the elemental level.

You want gas chromatography, as this is the only way to get accurate fuels %. Open cup flash in today's day is useless, every blackstone sample I've ever done, they spit out 0.0-0.5% and it's almost always been 2.5% in reality.

You want KF to see some of the fueling conditions and polymer additives in the oil. Blackstone never gets water % correctly as they use open cup flash, although they can run KF, I have yet to see a sample from them that does.

Tan is truly needed as often times these oils are really acidic when you start pushing them, people dismiss TAN because they don't truly know what theyre doing.

I'll post some UOA's for you to see in a bit, some that went to BS and Me and just some Blackstone one's where you can tell they have no idea what they're talking about.

edit: I had dreams of starting an independent analysis company but somethings took a few sour turns and they never came to fruitition. Either way, I may set something up here in the future to get that level of testing for $30-40. In comparison Dyson retails it at $90, and BStone would probably retail it at $250 if they were even capable.

mookdoc6 · June 13, 2017

For a second I thought you said garbage lab. lol My lab is so bad with consumers, it's not even funny, the average turn around time for a joe off the street is horrible, I wouldn't recommend it to you unless you were doing $20,000 a month in volume. Even then the automated system is so bad, it tells you irrelevant stuff.

Well although I'm not affliated to Dyson Analysis, their basic analysis is what I would recommend, you can try the advanced but I'll give you an inside note, Terry looks at every oil sample, meaning even when you get the basic, you're really getting an advanced. He may try to make it seem otherwise but you always get the advanced. The advanced quite frankly at $160, I'll leave you to make up your mind, but the basic once a year is very well worth it's cost.

You want a reliable ICP source, which Blackstone doesn't do bad on this but they've never been certified because everything they do is substandard to consumers who know nothing about oil analysis. You'll want FTIR, while you can have 30,000 ppm of zinc/phos, you don't know if that reflects active additive and not sheered/depleted additive. You want to see your timing conditions, fueling, spark and combustion efficiency on the engine. Only FTIR provides this data as it's looking at the oil at the molecular level rather than the elemental level.

You want gas chromatography, as this is the only way to get accurate fuels %. Open cup flash in today's day is useless, every blackstone sample I've ever done, they spit out 0.0-0.5% and it's almost always been 2.5% in reality.

You want KF to see some of the fueling conditions and polymer additives in the oil. Blackstone never gets water % correctly as they use open cup flash, although they can run KF, I have yet to see a sample from them that does.

Tan is truly needed as often times these oils are really acidic when you start pushing them, people dismiss TAN because they don't truly know what theyre doing.

I'll post some UOA's for you to see in a bit, some that went to BS and Me and just some Blackstone one's where you can tell they have no idea what they're talking about.

edit: I had dreams of starting an independent analysis company but somethings took a few sour turns and they never came to fruitition. Either way, I may set something up here in the future to get that level of testing for $30-40. In comparison Dyson retails it at $90, and BStone would probably retail it at $250 if they were even capable.

Thanks, I said, "Garage" but my computer skills are apparently as versed as Blackstones UOA's I have noticed like you said, nothing ever measures over .5% for fuel dilution? This really was my whole point of doing this test and to see if 15K oil is really still good at 10k+ in Phoenix heat? This will probably turn into another rabbit hole for me too it seems.......Thanks for the info this is good stuff! Mook!

danielLD · June 13, 2017

Lance GSF.pdf

Here are two reports, notice the differences in fuel % and water %. Welcome questions of other values. This guy had a serious issue that he didn't realize until after the report. The difference was I was able to identify it. Blackstone just dismissed it out right and said no biggie. If it had gone uncorrected over time, would have wiped out the engine.

Lance GSF.pdf

danielLD · June 13, 2017

This is a typical report from them and why they really shouldn't be in the business. They stain like most labs, what UOA really can and will do. Anyone care to guess what's wrong with this report?

danielLD · June 13, 2017

Unfortunately Tribologik's Expert System is not made for automotive applications, so don't bother reading it's "logic"

Cowpie · June 14, 2017

Mook, I have seen many oils using more sodium in their formulations to address what you mention, but not silicon. But I suppose anything could be possible since you are putting in aftermarket additives in the oil. Could you be confusing the two elements, sodium and silicon? Of course, none of us could have made a realistic assumption about the UOA since it was not mentioned that you are dumping in other stuff besides the motor oil itself. As for why you think the motor oil is not good enough on its own, I guess you have your reasons. Silicon, either from airborne particulates or an additive is still an abrasive. And I can't recall a virgin oil sample from any motor oil showing as high of silicon level as you are saying yours has.

And you change the filter enough already? Man, my 6.0 in my pickup has more miles on it than your sample page shows on yours and mine still has the stock filter. Filters get more efficient as they are used. I use a Filter Minder gauge that is installed to show vacuum to determine when to change the filter. Haven't had to change the stock filter yet and still getting the same fuel economy as any other time in its life. And I have to cover several miles of dusty gravel roads to get to the highway any time my pickup leaves the driveway and silicon has never showed more than low single digits in an oil sample. Frequent filter changes, or using a high flow filter, can cause higher silicon readings, since new filters are less efficient till they build up some contaminates.

Even the Detroit 12.7L in my commercial truck, with 22K mile oil change intervals, doesn't show as much silicon in 80K miles as yours does in that sample. Highest ever has been 6, and that was after a air filter change. And that engine OEM has flagged silicon as critical at 30 ppm. Your are almost at that level now in your sample. And your iron level is higher at 24K miles on the engine than my commercial 12.7L engine is with 700K miles on the engine getting oil changes almost as long as the entire miles on your pickup. Last sample on my commercial engine had iron at 15 ppm.

While not as terrible a sample as it has been suggested by Daniel, it is not as rosy as you seem to imply either. All deference to Blackstone and their opinion also.

mookdoc6 · June 14, 2017

Mook, I have seen many oils using more sodium in their formulations to address what you mention, but not silicon. But I suppose anything could be possible since you are putting in aftermarket additives in the oil. Could you be confusing the two elements, sodium and silicon? Of course, none of us could have made a realistic assumption about the UOA since it was not mentioned that you are dumping in other stuff besides the motor oil itself. As for why you think the motor oil is not good enough on its own, I guess you have your reasons. Silicon, either from airborne particulates or an additive is still an abrasive. And I can't recall a virgin oil sample from any motor oil showing as high of silicon level as you are saying yours has.

And you change the filter enough already? Man, my 6.0 in my pickup has more miles on it than your sample page shows on yours and mine still has the stock filter. Filters get more efficient as they are used. I use a Filter Minder gauge that is installed to show vacuum to determine when to change the filter. Haven't had to change the stock filter yet and still getting the same fuel economy as any other time in its life. And I have to cover several miles of dusty gravel roads to get to the highway any time my pickup leaves the driveway and silicon has never showed more than low single digits in an oil sample. Frequent filter changes, or using a high flow filter, can cause higher silicon readings, since new filters are less efficient till they build up some contaminates.

Even the Detroit 12.7L in my commercial truck, with 22K mile oil change intervals, doesn't show as much silicon in 80K miles as yours does in that sample. Highest ever has been 6, and that was after a air filter change. And that engine OEM has flagged silicon as critical at 30 ppm. Your are almost at that level now in your sample. And your iron level is higher at 24K miles on the engine than my commercial 12.7L engine is with 700K miles on the engine getting oil changes almost as long as the entire miles on your pickup. Last sample on my commercial engine had iron at 15 ppm.

While not as terrible a sample as it has been suggested by Daniel, it is not as rosy as you seem to imply either. All deference to Blackstone and their opinion also.

Cowpie,

Good stuff here as always! I am pretty sure I have not confused Si with Na! Your Cadillac CTS 3.6L is well, not a GDI therefore you have not seen the dreaded 3.6 come to a lurch because of GDI valve coking and general buildup. That is why I use BG products and understand I am fairly certain that my Ratio of AL to SI easily explains the higher SI non abrasive: Polymethylsiloxane in the Additive used to instantly collapse Foam that ultimately gets Fused/Seared onto the valve train on upper end etc.

You are absolutely correct in that multiple tests need to be used in factoring corrective actions unless it's blatantly obvious.....I will run another one with out changing anything that I do and your going to see the Copper dropping, Iron still dropping and Silicon still 15-25 ppm and AL 3-4PPM. Which as it shows the "breaking Wearing" process takes far longer than 5K as a previous poster mentioned, far longer you as Diesel guy should already know this.......Being where I am on this planet earth and sucking in Dust daily I will never show a sub 10 PPM on SI I am ok with that the viscosity and additives are huge at 10K and there is absolutely nothing going on here out of the ordinary.........

Changing to another lab just adds more variables and too late now............I am gonna blow her up pre 50K and need a hone job before that listening to you all....LOL Thanks, Mook!

Silicon in form of base oil stock which all have 5-15 ppm is NOT AN ABBRASIVE AT ALL! Only from the Earths crust ingested does it become abrasive.......I am not saying mine is this high "virgin oil" only when you add the additive do you end up with 26ppm