6.6 Direct Injection Reliability Concerns

Pryme · April 7, 2023

1 hour ago, the wanderer said:

Also, you may already be aware but RL is changing their formula; the 0w-30 has definitely been changed, not sure about 5w-30. They haven't updated their site yet but they're just waiting for the old stock to run out/low before doing that. I no longer trust RL either.

Redline got destroyed by Amsoil in the tests I’ve seen.

Grumpy Bear · April 7, 2023

3 hours ago, the wanderer said:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/amsoil-eao11-2019-ram-1500-5-7l-11-144km.364312/

3 hours ago, the wanderer said:

Also, you may already be aware but RL is changing their formula; the 0w-30 has definitely been changed, not sure about 5w-30. They haven't updated their site yet but they're just waiting for the old stock to run out/low before doing that. I no longer trust RL either.

I'd seen that thread. Can tells me nothing but the filter element whispers. Sort of. He sort of spoiled the effect by the milage he ran it.

Red Line has 4 lines of oil and yes, they jointed the commodity market years ago when they introduced the Professional-Series. I would expect the Professional Series to change as often as the market and SAE/OEM's demand.

Red Line HP PCMO has NEVER had an API starburst claiming it to BE anything but what they say it is, an Ester based oil.

How do I know it is? VOA oxidation level. Is it over 30?

Valvoline Premium Blue — SPEEDiagnostix

Go back to BITOG and look up the HPL oils you can find that have had oxidation run.

HPL Super Car 0W40 VOA/OX 23 ????

Compare that to the numbers you see on:

HPL 30-EC VOA/OX 113

CUMMINS RESTORE 141

Red Line HP 0W20 124 (mine 2018)

Red Line HP 5W20 91 ( BITOG 2020)

Red Line HP 5W30 93 (BITOG 2020)

Red Line HP 5W40 129 (BITOG 2020)

AMSOIL SS 0W30 45 (BITOG 2019) This use to be higher

Perhaps you missed this thread below.

Red Line Euro 5w30 VOA - 01.27.2022 | Bob Is The Oil Guy

Run down some oil oxidation levels that you know are not ester.

TRIAX Synergy SRT 5w30 7 (BITOG)

Idumitsu 0W20 VOA/OX 13 (BITOG)

Warren Dist. 5W30 7.46 (BITOG)

Ravenol SSL 0W40 23 (BITOG)

Okay I'm tired of looking these up...have at.

Grumpy Bear · April 7, 2023

7 hours ago, Pryme said:

Redline got destroyed by Amsoil in the tests I’ve seen.

Don't you just lover numbers used by marketing? Some matter and some don't. Shell decades ago made a huge deal out of the four-ball wear test. Problem isn't the test, it's the application. Exactly what part of your motor sees this sort of load? Answer is not a single one UNLESS the motor runs out of oil. MOST of the test run are like this. Under conditions Joe Crazy will never impose on his motor. Look at the test that do matter. Friction reduction for example isn't even run EXCEPT in research. There's a number you will dig for. How about thermal heat capacity? Yea, not run either. Red Line used to have a huge library of such test, that like AMSOIL, promoted itself with those tests. Most of it is gone now. No one read it. Few understood it. Planar shear i.e. Something ester bearing oils do that others simply can't and why they have the lowest friction base oil package.

AMSOIL is a great product, but it sings for its supper like everyone else. They like numbers. 73% cleaner for example. But reference is gray and pinned to a product uncalled. Example of marketing speak.

We have engineered this product to reduce deposits by 20%. Sounds great right? Okay but the reference was a baseline of 10 milligrams over a test cycle. So 8 milligrams is a reduction of yes, 20% but it is still only 2 milligrams. TWO MILLIGRAMS! At that scale you would have to average dozens of cycles to even see it statistically.

They put up bar charts showing a dozen competitors. The difference from worst to best is huge. The difference between the top three is so small you, the consumer, will never see the difference in a practical way.

Example. I pulled the top of a Honda 1.6 with 200K on the clock run on Red Line HP 5W20 its entire life. Zero varnish, Zero carbon or sludge. Fact is it looked like a motor that had never been run. Okay so AMSOIL is X% cleaner. Brother if I have to get out an analytical balance and microscope and do solvent extractions to find the difference with a motor that clean.....

I'm not slamming AMSOIL. I have used and still use some products of theirs. I'm just saying that at some point better is a bragging right more than difference maker. Actually, I think even their own chemist would agree as that SS chemistry isn't what it once was.

They brag cleanliness but never compare themselves to Pennzoil Platinum, Shell Helix or Chevron ISOCLEAN. In reality there is clean and then there is clean enough.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

Jettech1 · April 8, 2023

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Don't you just lover numbers used by marketing? Some matter and some don't. Shell decades ago made a huge deal out of the four-ball wear test. Problem isn't the test, it's the application. Exactly what part of your motor sees this sort of load? Answer is not a single one UNLESS the motor runs out of oil. MOST of the test run are like this. Under conditions Joe Crazy will never impose on his motor. Look at the test that do matter. Friction reduction for example isn't even run EXCEPT in research. There's a number you will dig for. How about thermal heat capacity? Yea, not run either. Red Line used to have a huge library of such test, that like AMSOIL, promoted itself with those tests. Most of it is gone now. No one read it. Few understood it. Planar shear i.e. Something ester bearing oils do that others simply can't and why they have the lowest friction base oil package.

AMSOIL is a great product, but it sings for its supper like everyone else. They like numbers. 73% cleaner for example. But reference is gray and pinned to a product uncalled. Example of marketing speak.

We have engineered this product to reduce deposits by 20%. Sounds great right? Okay but the reference was a baseline of 10 milligrams over a test cycle. So 8 milligrams is a reduction of yes, 20% but it is still only 2 milligrams. TWO MILLIGRAMS! At that scale you would have to average dozens of cycles to even see it statistically.

They put up bar charts showing a dozen competitors. The difference from worst to best is huge. The difference between the top three is so small you, the consumer, will never see the difference in a practical way.

Example. I pulled the top of a Honda 1.6 with 200K on the clock run on Red Line HP 5W20 its entire life. Zero varnish, Zero carbon or sludge. Fact is it looked like a motor that had never been run. Okay so AMSOIL is X% cleaner. Brother if I have to get out an analytical balance and microscope and do solvent extractions to find the difference with a motor that clean.....

I'm not slamming AMSOIL. I have used and still use some products of theirs. I'm just saying that at some point better is a bragging right more than difference maker. Actually, I think even their own chemist would agree as that SS chemistry isn't what it once was.

They brag cleanliness but never compare themselves to Pennzoil Platinum, Shell Helix or Chevron ISOCLEAN. In reality there is clean and then there is clean enough.

Great write up. I love you sharing your knowledge. Thank you for that!!!

Pryme · April 8, 2023

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Don't you just lover numbers used by marketing? Some matter and some don't. Shell decades ago made a huge deal out of the four-ball wear test. Problem isn't the test, it's the application. Exactly what part of your motor sees this sort of load? Answer is not a single one UNLESS the motor runs out of oil. MOST of the test run are like this. Under conditions Joe Crazy will never impose on his motor. Look at the test that do matter. Friction reduction for example isn't even run EXCEPT in research. There's a number you will dig for. How about thermal heat capacity? Yea, not run either. Red Line used to have a huge library of such test, that like AMSOIL, promoted itself with those tests. Most of it is gone now. No one read it. Few understood it. Planar shear i.e. Something ester bearing oils do that others simply can't and why they have the lowest friction base oil package.

AMSOIL is a great product, but it sings for its supper like everyone else. They like numbers. 73% cleaner for example. But reference is gray and pinned to a product uncalled. Example of marketing speak.

We have engineered this product to reduce deposits by 20%. Sounds great right? Okay but the reference was a baseline of 10 milligrams over a test cycle. So 8 milligrams is a reduction of yes, 20% but it is still only 2 milligrams. TWO MILLIGRAMS! At that scale you would have to average dozens of cycles to even see it statistically.

They put up bar charts showing a dozen competitors. The difference from worst to best is huge. The difference between the top three is so small you, the consumer, will never see the difference in a practical way.

Example. I pulled the top of a Honda 1.6 with 200K on the clock run on Red Line HP 5W20 its entire life. Zero varnish, Zero carbon or sludge. Fact is it looked like a motor that had never been run. Okay so AMSOIL is X% cleaner. Brother if I have to get out an analytical balance and microscope and do solvent extractions to find the difference with a motor that clean.....

I'm not slamming AMSOIL. I have used and still use some products of theirs. I'm just saying that at some point better is a bragging right more than difference maker. Actually, I think even their own chemist would agree as that SS chemistry isn't what it once was.

They brag cleanliness but never compare themselves to Pennzoil Platinum, Shell Helix or Chevron ISOCLEAN. In reality there is clean and then there is clean enough.

Yeah I am sure both are absolutely fantastic and no one would actually notice any difference. I wouldn’t hesitate to use either and I did when I used to race MX bikes. And motul

Jettech1 · April 8, 2023

23 minutes ago, Pryme said:

Yeah I am sure both are absolutely fantastic and no one would actually notice any difference. I wouldn’t hesitate to use either and I did when I used to race MX bikes. And motul

My son used to race MX bikes in his earlier years. Got himself a lot of trophies. Damn was that expensive...lol...he raced in the 85cc then moved on to the 125 category. Great memories. I was a 450 guy. I loved my honda 450R. I didn't race but it was fun as hell in trails chasing him down like our hair was on fire. I'm just glad we both survived it. He went on to the 250 category then stopped it all because he started working and didn't have time for it. He sold his 250 years ago but is still wanting to get back into just trail riding after his new house is finished being built. I miss my 450R. That thing was the most scariest bike I've ever learned how to ride. Just breathe on that throttle and all hell breaks loose. I had a KTM 450 that I didn't like, it was too heavy for trail riding but was a nice bike for sure.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Jettech1

Jettech1 · April 8, 2023

I squirreled...back to our regularly scheduled program....

Grumpy Bear · April 8, 2023

23 hours ago, the wanderer said:

Also, you may already be aware but RL is changing their formula; the 0w-30 has definitely been changed, not sure about 5w-30. They haven't updated their site yet but they're just waiting for the old stock to run out/low before doing that. I no longer trust RL either.

But you trust HPL? The words Selected Esters is stated but not showing up in VOA's.

VOA - HPoil PD 0w-20 | Bob Is The Oil Guy Spoiler alert. Oxidation VOA is only 17.

High Performance Lubricants Super Car "Overkill" 0W-20 VOA | Bob Is The Oil Guy Oxidation is 24 on their supercar series.

High Performance Lubricants Super Car 0W-40 VOA | Bob Is The Oil Guy Nope same in the heavier version.

Fact is the only product I've seen tested so far than has significant, that is Red Line lever Ester from HPL is their Engine Cleaners series. A product I use.

Two sad things here. I cannot find any VOA's on their top two products and few VOA source actually include Oxidation in their testing. Why to people bother to test oil if they are not going to actually test the OIL? :crazy:

Grumpy Bear · April 8, 2023

On 1/18/2021 at 10:48 AM, Khoa Pham said:

Hello Friends,

My dad is in the market for a new 2500 Express van since his 2014 Express with the 4.8L V8 gave out at only 130,000 miles. Naturally, I wanted to find him a 2020 van with the 6.0L V8 but he is drifting towards the newer 6.6 gas.

For 2021, Chevy did put the 6.6 L8T motor into their 2500/3500 Express Vans. I am sure that this powertrain combo is the same as the HD Silverado pickups.

Since I am unable to find much information about this motor, does anyone know what sort of engineering GM has done to prevent carbon buildup on the intake valves? This is an issue with DI motors and I am concerned with longevity and increased maintenance costs if one has to take their truck in every 30,000 miles to have the carbon buildup sandblasted.

If Toyota decided that adding both port and direct injection to their motors would resolve this issue, what sort of magic did GM come up with?

How well this motor does, has a great deal to do with the maintenance, products and operation you provide it with.

VicFirth · April 13, 2023

Dave Granquist from Red Line stated they use up to 40% POE in some of their oils, which is higher than I expected. Based on virgin oxidation readings, I had them around 20-25% or so. There are so many different esters that give off different oxidation readings, but they do correlate pretty well. One of their oils, the 5w40, has an oxidation reading of 129. So, they're using significant esters in the blend.

HPL uses ANs and select esters, so the oxidation readings are not that high. The solvency in HPL oils is second to none from what I've read and seen so far. These are formulations developed by Dr. Leslie Rudnick. Highly additized oil with a high SAPS level. Basically like Amsoil on steriods and Amsoil is already very good. People are finding carbon deposits in their filters likely from HPL cleaning up the piston rings, which are rarely ever shared when companies do tear downs to show internal cleanliness.

Where HPL has an advantage over others is they are up front about what base oils and VIIs they use - Group III, PAO and V, Star etc. They are by far the most transparent company you'll find. They even produced customer blends for certain individuals looking for no VIIs, which are ultimately what gunks up the IVD's on GDI engines. Really straightforward, solid company.

Their consumer facing products aren't required to keep the company afloat or to support a dealer network. So profit isn't a big part of the picture as it is with say Amsoil SS, which is designed to be better than other lines, but chemical selection must still be profitable. HPL caters to the industrial side more.

Plus Dr. Rudnick does the formulating work for them and it doesn't get much better than that.

Edited April 13, 2023 by TunaFresh

VicFirth · April 13, 2023

On 4/8/2023 at 11:05 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

But you trust HPL? The words Selected Esters is stated but not showing up in VOA's.

VOA - HPoil PD 0w-20 | Bob Is The Oil Guy Spoiler alert. Oxidation VOA is only 17.

High Performance Lubricants Super Car "Overkill" 0W-20 VOA | Bob Is The Oil Guy Oxidation is 24 on their supercar series.

High Performance Lubricants Super Car 0W-40 VOA | Bob Is The Oil Guy Nope same in the heavier version.

Fact is the only product I've seen tested so far than has significant, that is Red Line lever Ester from HPL is their Engine Cleaners series. A product I use.

Two sad things here. I cannot find any VOA's on their top two products and few VOA source actually include Oxidation in their testing. Why to people bother to test oil if they are not going to actually test the OIL?