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Thinking out load to that air...

 

What does a top compression ring do?

Seals!

 

 

This is what Mobil has to say about what levels of leakage are acceptable: 

 

Reading results
No engine will have perfect sealing with 0 percent loss. Five to 10 percent loss indicates an engine in great to good running order. An engine between 10 and 20 percent can still run OK, but it’ll be time to keep an eye (or ear) on things. Above 20 percent loss and it may be time for a teardown and rebuild. Thirty percent? Major problems. The percent of leakage should also be consistent across the cylinders. Any great differences indicate a problem in that cylinder.

 

 

So at what percent leak down does Joe Average consider his motor a failure? Joe Average doesn't measure leak down does he? When might he have it checked? Well past 20%. After it has failed. 

 

So lets go back to the first question? What does a compression ring do? It seals compression pressure to put the fuels energy to work. Not sealing is a FAILURE. So then at what point will a person ADMIT this motor is in trouble? When it starts pumping oil like a Texas Derrick? When he changing plugs once a week? When the converters fail? Motor FAILED much sooner and now he is dealing with his FAILURE to recognize his FAILURE to recognize. 

 

So when does this failure to seal become an "oil related engine failure"? This one is silly simple. Rings will fail to seal because:

 

1.) Bore/ring wear is so great it can no longer bridge the gap. Just worn out. Normal, natural. 

2.) The rings become varnished, literally glued into the ring lands STUCK BELOW the pistons OD. Abnormal, unnatural. 

 

#2 is your winner. When oil FAILS to keep this area clean enough to permit the rings to work as DESIGNED they have FAILED. 

 

And as we have already explored JOE AVERAGE will be none the wiser his motor has FAILED until his low oil level light is on and the motor is knocking. To that point he thinks the world is fine. 

 

WHY DID THE RINGS STICK?

 

Pure chemistry. The detergents and antioxidants have been REPEATEDLY DEPLETED.

WHY?

 

1.) Could be the chosen oil chemistry is not robust enough for the OCI. (more common that one thinks)

2.) Could be the OEM's OLM is set much to long (GM has been walking this back)

3.) Could be the operator is abusing the thing. Either by harsh operation OR by extending oil intervals past the additive packages ability to cope. (Drinking the Kool-Aid). 

 

As much as I don't know this I do know. People are running FAILED motors as daily drivers just as regularly as people ran tires 10 psi low before TPMS and never noticed. 

 

A failure to notice is just succeeding to fail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Thinking out load to that air...

 

What does a top compression ring do?

Seals!

 

 

This is what Mobil has to say about what levels of leakage are acceptable: 

 

Reading results
No engine will have perfect sealing with 0 percent loss. Five to 10 percent loss indicates an engine in great to good running order. An engine between 10 and 20 percent can still run OK, but it’ll be time to keep an eye (or ear) on things. Above 20 percent loss and it may be time for a teardown and rebuild. Thirty percent? Major problems. The percent of leakage should also be consistent across the cylinders. Any great differences indicate a problem in that cylinder.

 

 

So at what percent leak down does Joe Average consider his motor a failure? Joe Average doesn't measure leak down does he? When might he have it checked? Well past 20%. After it has failed. 

 

So lets go back to the first question? What does a compression ring do? It seals compression pressure to put the fuels energy to work. Not sealing is a FAILURE. So then at what point will a person ADMIT this motor is in trouble? When it starts pumping oil like a Texas Derrick? When he changing plugs once a week? When the converters fail? Motor FAILED much sooner and now he is dealing with his FAILURE to recognize his FAILURE to recognize. 

 

So when does this failure to seal become an "oil related engine failure"? This one is silly simple. Rings will fail to seal because:

 

1.) Bore/ring wear is so great it can no longer bridge the gap. Just worn out. Normal, natural. 

2.) The rings become varnished, literally glued into the ring lands STUCK BELOW the pistons OD. Abnormal, unnatural. 

 

#2 is your winner. When oil FAILS to keep this area clean enough to permit the rings to work as DESIGNED they have FAILED. 

 

And as we have already explored JOE AVERAGE will be none the wiser his motor has FAILED until his low oil level light is on and the motor is knocking. To that point he thinks the world is fine. 

 

WHY DID THE RINGS STICK?

 

Pure chemistry. The detergents and antioxidants have been REPEATEDLY DEPLETED.

WHY?

 

1.) Could be the chosen oil chemistry is not robust enough for the OCI. (more common that one thinks)

2.) Could be the OEM's OLM is set much to long (GM has been walking this back)

3.) Could be the operator is abusing the thing. Either by harsh operation OR by extending oil intervals past the additive packages ability to cope. (Drinking the Kool-Aid). 

 

As much as I don't know this I do know. People are running FAILED motors as daily drivers just as regularly as people ran tires 10 psi low before TPMS and never noticed. 

 

A failure to notice is just succeeding to fail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you would just post information or your opinion it would be cool and informative. Drinking the kool aid or what ever invites responding. Looking up the average life of a vehicle results a while range of responses, suitable for a politician. 3 of my great running vehicles would be considered wore out. Just like your write up would render two of my past vehicles bought using oil from new ready for a rebuild. Both lasted quite awhile using a qt every 2500 miles. It never got any worse.  Both using Amsoil with 25K oil changes. Cherry kook-aid is best as a slushy. 🤪

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11 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I find it unbelievable that a guy who knows for a fact I don't read a word he says has glued himself by my arse. 

:rolleyes:

 

Well teacher I forgot to raise my hand. And say please. If you don’t like a little back and forth there’s always the mirror. Funny though usually there’s tons of info agreeing with me. Not saying your completely  wrong. Some cases right. The insults lessen the credibility. At least unlike China, I don’t have to worry about going to jail. For disagreeing with the supreme leader.

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M54 carbon buildup on the piston ring | BimmerFest BMW Forum

 

TSB Saturn : "All 1991 - 1997 Saturn S-Series Vehicles Condition Some customers may comment that the engine is using 1 quart (0.951 liter) or more of oil every 3000 mi. (4827 km).

 

Cause Engine oil consumption greater than 1 quart (0.951 liter) in 3000 mi. (4827 km) may be caused by stuck/sticking oil control and/or compression rings.

 

Engine deposits may build up on and around the oil control ring(s), compression ring(s) and piston ring land(s) causing the ring(s) to stick and become less effective.

 

Correction Perform internal engine cleaning procedure or engine repair procedure depending on amount of oil consumption.

 

IF engine uses 1 quart (0.951 liter) of oil in: 1500 mi. - 3000 mi. (2414 km -4827 km), perform Procedure 1:

Internal Engine Cleaning

1499 mi. (2414 km) or less, perform Procedure 2:

 

Engine Repair While Saturn still considers oil consumption of 1 quart (0.951 liter) in 2000 mi. (3218 km) to be an acceptable level, the engine cleaning procedure contained in this bulletin may improve oil consumption performance to an even more acceptable level.

 

Engine Inspection and Oil Consumption Test:

 

1. Inspect engine for external oil leaks and repair as necessary.

2. Verify that the correct crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve is installed. Some aftermarket PCV valves do not meet Saturn specification and can cause oil consumption. (Refer to the following chart for correct application.) 3. Change engine oil and filter (3.8 liters [4 quarts] of oil are required to properly fill the crankcase).

4. Start engine and bring up to normal operating temperature of 197°-212° ;F (97°-100°C).

5. Park vehicle on level ground and wait a minimum of five minutes after engine is shut off. Check engine oil level to make sure it's at the FULL mark on the dipstick.

6. Mark the oil level on the dipstick with a scribe, if it is not exactly at FULL mark.

7. Record the vehicle's mileage, date of oil change and exact location of oil level on the Customer Service Order. 8. Return vehicle to customer and have customer check the engine oil level at each fuel fill and return the vehicle if oil level is at the ADD mark. If the oil level remains in the "cross-hatch" area, have the customer continue operating the vehicle for a minimum of 2000 miles (3218 km) before returning the vehicle for final oil consumption verification. If engine uses 1 quart (0.951 liter) of oil in:

* 3000 mi. (4827 km) or less, return vehicle to customer - this is acceptable oil consumption.

* 1500 mi. -3000 mi. (2414 km - 4827 km) proceed to Procedure 1 in this bulletin.

* 1499 mi. (2414 km) or more proceed to Procedure 2 in this bulletin.

 

Procedure - 1 Internal Engine Cleaning

 

1. Warm up to normal operating temperature. Important In order for the cleaner to be effective, the engine must be warm.

2. Disconnect negative battery cable.

3. Remove spark plugs.

4. Rotate engine crankshaft until notch in crank pulley is at 3 o'clock (90° after top dead center) position. This will position all of the pistons midway in their bores.

5. Pour 3 ounces of GM Piston and Ring Cleaner (P/N 12378549 12 ounce bottle) into each cylinder through the spark plug hole.

6. Cover the cylinder head and spark plug holes to prevent debris from getting into the combustion chamber and to prevent excess evaporation of the cleaner.

7. Allow the engine cleaner to soak for a minimum of 2 hours. Notice After the minimum 2-hour soak, there may be some cleaner left in the combustion chambers. Do not start the engine until all of the cleaner has been removed from the combustion chamber or severe engine damage may occur.

8. After the minimum 2-hour soak, remove the remaining cleaner from the combustion chambers by placing shop towels over all of the spark plug holes and cranking the engine through a few revolutions.

9. Install the spark plugs and spark plug wires.

10. Start the engine and run only enough to reach normal operating temperature.

11. Drain the engine oil and remove oil filter.

12. Install new oil filter (P/N 21000872). Important *Mobil® 1 Synthetic 5W-30 or 10W-30 engine oil is to be used during the initial oil change interval following this procedure. Mobil® 1 Synthetic oil has excellent engine cleaning properties that will aid in removing deposits that were loosened and softened during this procedure. *We believe this source and their products to be reliable. There may be additional manufacturers of such products. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for the products from this firm or for any such items which may be available from other sources.

13. Install 4 quarts (3.8 L) of Mobil® 1 Synthetic 5W-30 or 10W-30 engine oil.

14. Return vehicle to customer.

15. After 1500-3000 miles of operation, have the customer return for next oil change.

16. Drain engine oil and remove oil filter.

17. Install new oil filter (P/N 21000872) 18. Install 4 quarts (3.8 L) of engine oil meeting Saturn specifications.

19. Refer to Oil Consumption Test and perform steps 4 through 8. "

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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3 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Pour 3 ounces of GM Piston and Ring Cleaner (P/N 12378549 12 ounce bottle) into each cylinder through the spark plug hole.

 

It's prevalent enough GM has developed it's own cleaner for this oil related EINGINE FAILURE

 

3 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

12. Install new oil filter (P/N 21000872). Important *Mobil® 1 Synthetic 5W-30 or 10W-30 engine oil is to be used during the initial oil change interval following this procedure. Mobil® 1 Synthetic oil has excellent engine cleaning properties that will aid in removing deposits that were loosened and softened during this procedure. *We believe this source and their products to be reliable. There may be additional manufacturers of such products. General Motors does not endorse, indicate any preference for or assume any responsibility for the products from this (Mobil) firm or for any such items which may be available from other sources.

 

That is just funny. So we asked you to use this oil. It gummed up the wax works. We want you to use it again after using our product developed for this issue BUT as it failed the first time we will not back it. :thumbs:

 

Like TSB's on the 2.4 and MAZDA 2300 and a few dozen more. Failure is all around you. Your accepting it is a different matter. 

 

Lord GM is just fine with a degree of failure.

How grand of them to decide for you what you DESERVE. 

 

 

 

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Just some general info.

 

Don't forget VW.  They have been recommending 10k oil changes since 2009 and most of their customers follow that.  I'm sure if you go on their forums you will find issues.

 

There were major problems with Toyota having slug build up issues as well a 15 years ago or so. Again they also probably have issues. AMSOIL actually had on their look-up guide that if you had one of these vehicles you had to follow the manufactures oil change intervals. 

 

Oil related, yes and no.  To me the way they have to meet the EPA economy CAFE figures, every manufacture doesn't tune the vehicle for maximum performance but for economy.  This plays a major role in this case.  A properly tuned/built engine with a high quality fuel would not have these issues.  Combustion would be tuned that the rings would seal properly from the oil film and no contaminated buy burning oil vapors from the crank case. 

 

Why are "catch cans" so popular?

 

Maybe if we moved to a 10w-40 oil from the start like other countries ie Europe and Australia, there wouldn't be any issues.

 

But then lets look at GM and the issues with the engines like Gumpy owns.  Are the pistons and rings of a high quality and is the hone of the cylinders to allow proper wear-in where they need to be?  I would guess no. What makes these specific engine assembly and parts different from any other in the GM lineup?  Manufactures are not building vehicles to last.  They just want them to make it past the warranty.  Other wise they wouldn't sell vehicles. 

 

Twilight Zone voice, "Imagine a world of high quality built vehicles, vehicles that last for 500k miles with no issues, engines that perform flawlessly." The world be a boring and economic disaster.  The only good thing that I could think of that would come out of this would be Mother Earth would be in better shape due to less trash being produced/discarded.

 

As Grumpy posted on Saturn. There again, a new car company, (remember when it wasn't supposed to be related to GM?) An  inexpensive vehicle and it seems the engineers built it that way.  Maybe if they put Toyota engines in them like in Geo's they would still be around.

 

There was a meme going around on the older 90's model Toyota's that they need to be recalled, not because of issue but because of not having issues and lasting forever.  :lol:

 

Take all the DI engines.  What are we seeing?  Major fuel dilution.  No oil can fight that. Nature of the beast or is it in the tune?  Would a stronger ignition system help?

 

It would be interesting to see a new known issue vehicle, like Grumpy's and change the oil every 1k miles from the start and see how it performs in 200k miles.

 

This is just food for thought.  I had no intention starting anything but just to say this is the world we live in.

 

 

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Give these a thought. 

 

1.) A TSB is not written for a problem that does not exist and in great enough numbers to endanger the entire population. 

2.) A TSB is NEVER written for an issue then happens AFTER the warranty expires! 🤔

 

Ergo this IS an issue with MANY manufactures and it IS happing inside the warranty period

 

IF anyone read the one for Honda you would have seen that the ring issue is not addressed until the SECOND plug failure. That is funny stuff. People are running FAILED engines without notice until it misfires and kids this is old news. A misfire can not be felt until it reaches 15% of all ignition sequences. 

 

More later. Dinner bell just rang. 😉 

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Here's the part that seems everyone is missing. You can not reverse mechanical damage that would prevent ring seal with a flush or detergent. These rings are not mechanically damaged. They are STUCK.

 

Sticking rings are literally varnished in the lands below the face of the piston. Varnish is not an issue of build quality, materials or parts finishes. Varnish is an oxidation product. This is a oil chemistry issue.

 

One I just reversed with a detergent.  

 

One every manufacture already knows the cause and cure for. But Nick...you are right in thinking there is no money in actually fixing this. This is why they attempt to fix this FAILURE with a SOLVENT and not a DETERGENT. 

 

 

Look, they took out ZINC which is the primary antioxidant. Don't want to foul those cat converters, right? So the oil uses up the smaller doze of zinc sooner. Then they took out calcium, the acid neutralizer to prevent LSPI. All this means it you have to change oil more often OR use an oil not yet neutered by the DEXOS1Gen2/SN+ license and certification. 

 

There is no good reason to lower zinc in a motor that does not use oil but as they are aware that the chemistry will in fact create oil consumption........ 

 

What is aggravating me to no end is how simple this is to understand and how much resistance it is getting from the people it hurts the most. 

 

I do not concern myself with politics or the OEM's bottom line. I don't care why. 

 

Worth the repeating:

 

You can not reverse mechanical damage that would prevent ring seal with a flush or detergent.

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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Something I was told recently that helps me make sense of things like this. 

 

To not acknowledge the blatantly obvious requires a deliberate suppression of truth.

 

It isn't a mistake

It's a means to an end

 

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12 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Here's the part that seems everyone is missing. You can not reverse mechanical damage that would prevent ring seal with a flush or detergent. These rings are not mechanically damaged. They are STUCK.

 

Sticking rings are literally varnished in the lands below the face of the piston. Varnish is not an issue of build quality, materials or parts finishes. Varnish is an oxidation product. This is a oil chemistry issue.

 

One I just reversed with a detergent.  

 

One every manufacture already knows the cause and cure for. But Nick...you are right in thinking there is no money in actually fixing this. This is why they attempt to fix this FAILURE with a SOLVENT and not a DETERGENT. 

 

 

Look, they took out ZINC which is the primary antioxidant. Don't want to foul those cat converters, right? So the oil uses up the smaller doze of zinc sooner. Then they took out calcium, the acid neutralizer to prevent LSPI. All this means it you have to change oil more often OR use an oil not yet neutered by the DEXOS1Gen2/SN+ license and certification. 

 

There is no good reason to lower zinc in a motor that does not use oil but as they are aware that the chemistry will in fact create oil consumption........ 

 

What is aggravating me to no end is how simple this is to understand and how much resistance it is getting from the people it hurts the most. 

 

I do not concern myself with politics or the OEM's bottom line. I don't care why. 

 

Worth the repeating:

 

You can not reverse mechanical damage that would prevent ring seal with a flush or detergent.

 

 

 

I disagree to a point.  If an IC engine is  properly tuned then there wouldn't be an issue.  To me it is the tune of the engine due to CAFE.  Washing down the cylinder walls and not having complete combustion adds to the issue that no oil can survive in.  Building an oil to prolong the life is just what GM is doing with the dexos oil, not to mention making money off it as well.   Look around and tell me that new modern vehicles are not running at top performance tune wise.

 

Again, why all the hype on catch cans?

 

I see so many vehicles where the tailpipes are so black it is covering the back of the vehicle. One was a BMW and it was white but the back was black. Obviously this individual didn't wash their vehicle much.  :lol:   I remember back in the day with my 68 Impala with the 4 barrel QJ that the tailpipe was a light color grey and that was a good indication it was running well.  The grey was from the lead that was in the fuel back then.  After the lead was removed no more grey but it was still really clean and remember this was before CATS.

 

I just feel it is a tuning issue more than anything.  I wish I had the expertise like the guys that can tune like Black Bear Performance.  I would be playing around with my tune to see how I could get the best efficiency out of the engine, and see how it effects my UOA's.  There has got to be a way but most want performance and that leads to what we see here.  For some reason, my driving style and conditions are giving my UOA's high Karl Fischer water results. This is one way of seeing how the efficient the engine is running.  Again, the tune of the engine comes into play.

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1 hour ago, Black02Silverado said:

I disagree to a point.  If an IC engine is  properly tuned then there wouldn't be an issue.  To me it is the tune of the engine due to CAFE.  Washing down the cylinder walls and not having complete combustion adds to the issue that no oil can survive in.  Building an oil to prolong the life is just what GM is doing with the dexos oil, not to mention making money off it as well.   Look around and tell me that new modern vehicles are not running at top performance tune wise.

 

Again, why all the hype on catch cans?

 

I see so many vehicles where the tailpipes are so black it is covering the back of the vehicle. One was a BMW and it was white but the back was black. Obviously this individual didn't wash their vehicle much.  :lol:   I remember back in the day with my 68 Impala with the 4 barrel QJ that the tailpipe was a light color grey and that was a good indication it was running well.  The grey was from the lead that was in the fuel back then.  After the lead was removed no more grey but it was still really clean and remember this was before CATS.

 

I just feel it is a tuning issue more than anything.  I wish I had the expertise like the guys that can tune like Black Bear Performance.  I would be playing around with my tune to see how I could get the best efficiency out of the engine, and see how it effects my UOA's.  There has got to be a way but most want performance and that leads to what we see here.  For some reason, my driving style and conditions are giving my UOA's high Karl Fischer water results. This is one way of seeing how the efficient the engine is running.  Again, the tune of the engine comes into play.

 

 

I don't think I make a scientific argument that will challenge a feeling Nick.

 

I'd like to know you feelings on how a detergent treatment turned a quart in 600 mile motor into one that uses no measurable oil if the ring failure mode is fuel wash worn out? 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

I don't think I make a scientific argument that will challenge a feeling Nick.

 

I'd like to know you feelings on how a detergent treatment turned a quart in 600 mile motor into one that uses no measurable oil if the ring failure mode is fuel wash worn out? 

 

 

A band aid is all you did.  The cause is still there and if you go back to the old ways it will return.  The average person isn't going to use special oil "detergent" to keep from having issues.  Hence it is a tuning issue. 

 

 

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