OCI, not when but why?

[customboss]

On 1/6/2024 at 10:43 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

I took extra note of the marketing background of BOTH of these guys. 

 

Your choices are going to be taken away and sooner than later. Reality no longer matters. Only compliance does. 

Both the authors are scientists first than marketers.  No one is taking away our choices. The lube and engine industry is SELF REGULATING and has tremendous capability to DO NEW chemistry work thats more important but the OIL INDUSTRY wants to profit vs R&D as you well know.

 

I was frustrated for 43 years fighting back against oil industries jerking us around. Sadly the ignorance of the consumer makes them perfect Marks for this illusion of petro chems being the only way.  The DOD was even hoosgowed by the oil companies. Thats changing now. The war I fought in was driven by oil and its flow from Persian Gulf. 

 

I agree that is our engines had more perfect combustion dynamic additives could be diminished or elimnated and allow a more perfect " base " oil to work its wonders. That takes fuels that are synthesized. FUEL source is the key for IC engines. 

 

Fuel is what ruined that 4.3 V6 teardown video and contributed to the lifter stuck in the bore.  Even Pepper had fuel dilute issues before we identified them with high quality oil analysis. The Redline oil was saving your bacon but could not forever. 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

5 hours ago, customboss said:

Even Pepper had fuel dilute issues before we identified them with high quality oil analysis. The Redline oil was saving your bacon but could not forever. 

 

80K fuels was 2.4% which I ignored. Literally did nothing about it. At 100,541 miles I changed plugs and wires as part of the routine. Not a response. 154,953 miles put her on E-85. Nominal 75% actual test. Last sample at 159,979 miles showed 0% fuels. At 75% alcohol the fuels content should have still been over .06% if there were a lingering issue. It wasn't. You can toss plugs, wires, boots coils till the cows come home and not effect the fuels dilute rate as we learned in Dizzy IF the parts you took out were not the problem thus the new parts not a solution. Took those pictures of her insides around 165K miles. I'd say Red Line has more than saved her bacon. 

 

Identified? Yes. Did something about it? Nope. Just good old late fall GDI behaviors. (October 16th sampling)

 

Bold is in the past tense. Still in the present tense and still, no issues. This motor is now past the warranty 60K. The extended warranty and legal definition of 'lifetime" 150K and well into her second lifetime.

 

At what point is the Red Line supposed to fail her? 

[Grumpy Bear]

 I don't know what people expect or what they find or believe is normal. What they believe the future holds. I know what I've done and what effect it has had on my equipment. From the first day I came here I've been told the next mile I drive is my last. That what I do won't work and is doomed to failure. 

 

I'm still waiting. 

[diyer2]

Here I go again.

All I know is I have never had an engine failure in 50+ years. Bought used vehicles except for one, a 19 Honda CRV that had fuel dilution problems. Gone! What magic formula did I use? No oil tests, no analyzing oils or oil filters before using them.

I just changed my oil and filters more. 

Recently changed the oil in our Hyundai Santa Fe. Remember I switched it over to Amsoil OE. Was doing 4k oil changes and thought about extending it to 5k. At 4400 miles it was to dirty for me on the dipstick when checking it, so I changed it. 

[customboss]

17 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

80K fuels was 2.4% which I ignored. Literally did nothing about it. At 100,541 miles I changed plugs and wires as part of the routine.

THAT.........test 2 on CUMMINS RESTORE 10w30 was done 80,000 miles after test 1 at 80,000.  So air filters, plugs/wires made a major difference.  E85 did burn cleaner and probably cleaned the carbon you had loaded at test 1. 

 

Engine oil ain't gonna drive nitration and fuels dilute to 10 abs units and 0% gasoline detected by GC. 

 

We are talking unit 391 not the fuel leaking Dizzy that was loaded with carbon and could not breathe. 

 

Believe whatever one chooses, I use data to show directional change. Did you test between Unit 391 test 1 and 2 ? If so share it. I will post up unit 391 history with your permission to show why I am sharing what I share.  

 

[customboss]

2 hours ago, diyer2 said:

Here I go again.

All I know is I have never had an engine failure in 50+ years. Bought used vehicles except for one, a 19 Honda CRV that had fuel dilution problems. Gone! What magic formula did I use? No oil tests, no analyzing oils or oil filters before using them.

I just changed my oil and filters more. 

Recently changed the oil in our Hyundai Santa Fe. Remember I switched it over to Amsoil OE. Was doing 4k oil changes and thought about extending it to 5k. At 4400 miles it was to dirty for me on the dipstick when checking it, so I changed it. 

Thats fine and I getg it.   Works for you but I worked to make engines like the 1.6 Honda Turbo DI to stop pumping 10% gasoline into the cylinders for cooling and detonation resistance it did not need. 

 

Its possible by changing oil so often you masked issues that could be corrected and BURN LESS GASOLINE which might have saved you thousands in the low octane high fuel expense you are paying up there. 

 

Most engines will never fail in our ownership experiences I agree. Does a owner want to optimize or accept good enough? 

 

My customers and R&D work were geared to get as close to best practice as we could.  

 

 

 

 

[customboss]

17 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

80K fuels was 2.4% which I ignored. Literally did nothing about it. At 100,541 miles I changed plugs and wires as part of the routine. Not a response. 154,953 miles put her on E-85. Nominal 75% actual test. Last sample at 159,979 miles showed 0% fuels. At 75% alcohol the fuels content should have still been over .06% if there were a lingering issue. It wasn't. You can toss plugs, wires, boots coils till the cows come home and not effect the fuels dilute rate as we learned in Dizzy IF the parts you took out were not the problem thus the new parts not a solution. Took those pictures of her insides around 165K miles. I'd say Red Line has more than saved her bacon. 

 

Identified? Yes. Did something about it? Nope. Just good old late fall GDI behaviors. (October 16th sampling)

 

Bold is in the past tense. Still in the present tense and still, no issues. This motor is now past the warranty 60K. The extended warranty and legal definition of 'lifetime" 150K and well into her second lifetime.

 

At what point is the Red Line supposed to fail her? 

Burning E85 is such a good fuel for this design. Proud that you did that and have almost perfected its use in Pepper. Rock On!  

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Believe whatever one chooses, I use data to show directional change. Did you test between Unit 391 test 1 and 2 ? If so share it. I will post up unit 391 history with your permission to show why I am sharing what I share.  

 

 

No test in between. I saw no need for it. I posted both in Peppers thread. No need to do it twice. 

 

It's not a matter of believing what I choose. It's a matter of not agreeing on the basic test procedures. I normalize wear metals, you don't. I read oxidation and nitration compared to the base line of the unused oil. You use absolute terms for Nitration disregarding the background. I trend results. You see them as isolated events. I believe in statistics, and you believe in raw values. We are just not going to agree on this. Your methods are unique. In fact, so much so in a field of dozens, you stand alone. A statistical outlier.  

 

The inside of Pepper isn't the result of changing one set of perfectly working plugs and wires for another nor use of E85 over the last 20K miles. It's the result of no issues period and short OCI's with a very polar oil with a stout antioxidant package. This motor didn't get "Cleaned up" guided by 'quality UOAs"...it never got dirty. Like my last half dozen 200K mile motors. 

[customboss]

My career statistics were guided by Monte Carlo statistical program. Not by what you share here or a few oil analysis results. I’ve tried inform and educate you not change your opinion. 
Trending and baselines mean nothing once you fire a IC engine. Especially with scant data on your Pepper and using advanced IR work. 
Rock on old man! lol 

[Grumpy Bear]

5 hours ago, customboss said:

Trending and baselines mean nothing once you fire a IC engine.

 

And there's the problem. When 2+2 does not equal 4 then the entire world of math, physics and scientific method fall apart. There are NO exceptions in statistics. This isn't alchemy. Things don't become true because one says they are, wishes they were, needs them to be. There is no 'black box' inside the motor. No Voo Doo.  Darn little art. 

 

There is a lot of smoke and mirrors.  

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Interesting post from another forum I visit: 

 

 Originally Posted by Mark 

I've shared this in other oil threads, & I am going to share it here, too.

If you download a Mirage owner's manual from other countries, you will find most any oil viscosity would work in a Mirage engine under the right conditions (atmospheric temperatures).

For example - The Mirage owner's manual for the UK lists the following oil viscosities for the Mirage - 0W20, 0W30, 5W20, 5W30, 5W40, 10W30, 10W40, 10W50, 15W40, 15W50, 20W40, & 20W50. None of these oil viscosities are recommended over the other in their manual. Instead the manual states - "Select engine oil of the proper SAE viscosity number according to the atmospheric temperature." Obviously, most of these oil viscosities overlap each other quite a bit.

The effort to squeeze every ounce of economy out of our Mirage engines is what drives the 0W20 recommendation in North America in my opinion. A recommendation is not a mandate. I don't hesitate to use 5W-30 full synthetic oil in my Mirage, but that's a personal choice (not a recommendation for anyone else).

Steve's Cheap Plastic Car (old thread from a former forum member) received free lifetime oil changes with his Mirage purchase. Even though the Mitsubishi dealership went under, the owners honored the service through their Cadillac dealership. Steve received 55+ free oil/filter changes before selling his Mirage @ 307,000+ miles. His oil changes were 5W-30 conventional oil & most likely a low grade oil filter every 5,000 miles. His Mirage did not suffer any engine issues. He did have some transmission issues in the end. Given how Steve racked up the miles quickly, it would be safe to assume his car experienced a lot of highway miles.

 

[Grumpy Bear]

https://www.mobil.com/industrial/~/media/files/global/us/industrial/tech-topics/tt-nitration-in-natural-gas-engines.pdf

 

Nitration Detection (Mobil)

 

Visual inspection of the rocker arm and valve assembly area and the piston skirt of an engine will reveal the amber-to-maroon colored varnish deposits indicative of nitration. Nitration will also cause the oil control rings to stick and will form sludge in the crankcase.

 

Where is the problem? 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[customboss]

16 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

And there's the problem. When 2+2 does not equal 4 then the entire world of math, physics and scientific method fall apart. There are NO exceptions in statistics. This isn't alchemy. Things don't become true because one says they are, wishes they were, needs them to be. There is no 'black box' inside the motor. No Voo Doo.  Darn little art. 

 

There is a lot of smoke and mirrors.  

 

 

Your sample size and tiny set of data is so small it’s essentially a one off. 
You don’t know tribology or chemistry. You believe running a spreadsheet colored graph or pie chart reflects truth to those who read your posts. That’s hubris not mathematics or science. 

I appreciate  your intellect and willingness to share YOUR truth and efforts. You are a great tech and mech. 
 

 

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

https://www.mobil.com/industrial/~/media/files/global/us/industrial/tech-topics/tt-nitration-in-natural-gas-engines.pdf

 

Nitration Detection (Mobil)

 

Visual inspection of the rocker arm and valve assembly area and the piston skirt of an engine will reveal the amber-to-maroon colored varnish deposits indicative of nitration. Nitration will also cause the oil control rings to stick and will form sludge in the crankcase.

 

Where is the problem? 

 

 

That’s great. Since you refuse to allow your oil analysis to be posted, Show us your pistons and valves internally. Be sure to list the mileages and lubes and fuel’s listed so we can see how clean they are! 

[Grumpy Bear]

6 hours ago, customboss said:

That’s great. Since you refuse to allow your oil analysis to be posted, Show us your pistons and valves internally. Be sure to list the mileages and lubes and fuel’s listed so we can see how clean they are! 

 

 

 

That's your reply? Challenge me to take my motor apart?

On my dime?

Get a grip.

 

Trade ya. Show me your peer reviewed case studies and $15K to tear down, freshen and reassemble my motor and you have a deal. Your published right? I mean you can prove your methods and have submitted your research to academic scrutiny and your peers have published their reviews, right? Show me your proof I'm wrong. 

 

Tell me. How many motors in this service have to disassembled with rocker areas that looked like mine and found the ring lands fouled? 

 

If you say one, you're lying.

 

Tell me what you know Mobil doesn't know. Heck, tell me what you know the entire rest of the world of oil testing doesn't. No one, and I mean no one but you has a Nitration 10 abs unit "OMG your motor has major issues" triggers. No one but you uses single point un-normalized analysis. OMG your Iron was 10 ppm this time and las time it was 9 ppm. 

 

10 abs over background is a normal "think about changing your oil" number. Most oils have a number over 5 abs, a few as high as 9 abs in the bottle. Even your pet CUMMINS was 7 abs. Don't give me "once the engine is fired" crap. EVERYTHING changes when you start running it. It's why you change oil.  It starts wearing out on the hit.