OCI, not when but why?

customboss · January 17, 2024

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Confusion started in 1928 when Kendal claimed 2K mile OCI's two years before SB fluids.

I only use refinery sealed cans!

VicFirth · January 17, 2024

Well it looks a lot different than the Premium Blue Restore, which was PAO/V and had an oxidation value of 110.

Here is a VOA of the new Restore & Protect.

Grumpy Bear · January 17, 2024

44 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

Well it looks a lot different than the Premium Blue Restore, which was PAO/V and had an oxidation value of 110.

Here is a VOA of the new Restore & Protect.

Cannot believe there wasn't a TBN run on this. Always a job done half. Well, such as it is....

Any cleaning is not coming from polar products. Mid SN/SP phos levels. . Good boron hit. Moderate moly. Initial viscosity tells me why it isn't 'energy conserving". I like that number. Not a bottom feeding eco oil. I might be surprised but the TBN couldn't be very high. 7 or 8 maybe using the weaker acid value.

Smell tells me there is something "different' about this oil. Cleaning is chemical and not polar. Well, we have a base line. Good! Thanks.

VicFirth · January 17, 2024

I think the guy asked for both TBN and TAN so he's going to contact the lab for it. I agree it seems like they're likely using an additive rather than polar base oil to achieve the results they are claiming.

Grumpy Bear · January 17, 2024

1 hour ago, VicFirth said:

I think the guy asked for both TBN and TAN so he's going to contact the lab for it. I agree it seems like they're likely using an additive rather than polar base oil to achieve the results they are claiming.

Share it if you get it, please.

VicFirth · January 17, 2024

“Restore & Protect” is the result of three years of intensive development. It stands as Valvoline’s most technologically advanced engine oil to date.

The product incorporates two of Valvoline’s proprietary technologies: “Active Clean,” which removes deposits and restores engine performance, and “Liqui-Shield,” which proactively prevents deposit formation and shields against future damage.

Requires a bit of faith in terms of whether the product can deliver what is claimed. They did test it through a modified IIIH test, but I'm not sure what a modified IIIH looks like.

Edited January 17, 2024 by VicFirth

Grumpy Bear · January 18, 2024

READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ? | Bob Is The Oil Guy

This is a hard read. This guy lost paragraph structure. Move it to a Word Document and increase font size. It is worth the read.

I am done with 20W and most 30W oils. I'm done with this ridiculous idea we can substitute viscosity with chemistry.

Now run this past the idea that the V6 that uses 5W30 and uses the same valve train as the V8 using 0W20 lives multiples longer than the V8. :idiot:

Edited January 18, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · January 19, 2024

Recipe for Engine Life

1.) Lower viscosity until metal to metal is assured.

2.) Remove as many wear and antioxidant additives as possible.

3.) Introduce a fuel delivery system and coolant systems that assures more viscosity loss.

4.) Increase power density to assure as much boundary lubrication as possible.

5.) Design the weakest ring packages ever built.

6.) Increase operating temperature to further reduce viscosity.

7.) Move the specifications for each SAE grade lower and narrower.

8.) Encourage blending oils to the very bottom of the viscosity range. (Energy Conserving)

9.) Use the cheapest most ineffective bases and additives that exist.

10.) Extend the drain interval.

11.) Remove or attempt to do so all products from the aftermarket that do not conform to the plan.

12.) Shorten the warranty.

13) Cut engine life by 30% or more.

14.) Sell 30% more vehicles and add to the carbon footprint more than all the above reduced.

15.) Incentivize OEMs to continue along this path by fining them for noncompliance.

Mix all the above in a powertrain and heat oil to north of 150C for 60-80K miles and complain about oil consumption.

Serve up in a forum and chew it to death. Swallow it whole and move on to the next failed technology. :idiot:

Ya got to want the problem fixed to engineer solutions. No one wants to. Too much money in the current methods.

Edited January 19, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

VicFirth · January 19, 2024

This patent basically validates how HPL/RL/Amsoil SS can clean and keep engines clean. My guess is Valvoline had to find a cheaper way to achieve this because the base oils required to do so would push the price up beyond what any of the cheapskates at Walmart would be willing to pay.

US20170029734A1 - Lubricant for preventing and removing carbon deposits in internal combustion engines - Google Patents

VicFirth · January 19, 2024

On 1/18/2024 at 12:09 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ? | Bob Is The Oil Guy

This is a hard read. This guy lost paragraph structure. Move it to a Word Document and increase font size. It is worth the read.

I am done with 20W and most 30W oils. I'm done with this ridiculous idea we can substitute viscosity with chemistry.

Now run this past the idea that the V6 that uses 5W30 and uses the same valve train as the V8 using 0W20 lives multiples longer than the V8.

I always found it interesting how the same engine in different parts of the world would list different viscosities, often up to a 40 grade, in the owners manual.

It's like a hand in glove situation. There probably is a sweet spot, but it would be hard to know what that is. I suppose UOAs would help address that issue.

Grumpy Bear · January 19, 2024

Did you note the patent assignee?

Now this is how the issue of intellectual Property is handled.

Inventor: Ying Yang; Frances E. Lockwood; Daniel J. Dotson; Joshua Frederick; Jamie Daasch
Current Assignee: VGP Ipco LLC

Worldwide applications

2015 EP CN US AU CA JP MX WO

Application US15/302,341 events

2015-04-10

Application filed by Valvoline Licensing and Intellectual Property LLC

2015-04-10

Priority to US15/302,341

customboss · January 19, 2024

VGP was spun off to Aramco wonder if they got that IP in the deal?

Grumpy Bear · January 19, 2024

4 hours ago, VicFirth said:

This patent basically validates how HPL/RL/Amsoil SS can clean and keep engines clean. My guess is Valvoline had to find a cheaper way to achieve this because the base oils required to do so would push the price up beyond what any of the cheapskates at Walmart would be willing to pay.

US20170029734A1 - Lubricant for preventing and removing carbon deposits in internal combustion engines - Google Patents

Thank you Vic.

Anyone remember my discussing running aniline points on finished oils? How about the effect of polar components influence on OXIDATION values? Estimating the ester level via oxidation? The need to have a background OXIDATION value to judge the UOA value against? The importance and ability of polarity on/of cleanliness? Charts perhaps of the aniline points of various possible base stocks. Ever see me put this chart up?

This was a most interesting from the Valvoline Patent:

[The carbon deposits can be removed from the engine piston by simply running the engine with the lubricant for one required cycle or can be used continuously in the engine to prevent buildup.]

CUMMINS Valvoline Blue Restore (no longer available) had a VOA oxidation of 141. Closest one I've seen to this is Red Line HP running between 90 and 120 grade dependent.

Edited January 19, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

customboss · January 19, 2024

RLI 10w30 HD from 2007 DysonAnalysis work. Renewable Lubricants has been doing all this type thing with PAO and Veg base oils for 30 years.

Grumpy Bear · January 19, 2024

4 hours ago, VicFirth said:

I always found it interesting how the same engine in different parts of the world would list different viscosities, often up to a 40 grade, in the owners manual.

It's like a hand in glove situation. There probably is a sweet spot, but it would be hard to know what that is. I suppose UOAs would help address that issue.

From the Please Read post:

Quote [The ideal oil viscosity for motor oil used in conventional piston engine operating at the "normal" engine operating temperature is equivalent to SAE 30. (In range of 9 cP to 12 cP @ 100°C); If you use thinner oil (SAE 20 or less), under normal operating conditions there will be less resistance to motion due to the lower viscosity, resulting in better fuel economy. However, this gain in fuel economy does not occur without costs: Increase in oil consumption due to lower viscosity (can be offset by better seals); Increase in oil consumption due to higher volatility (can be offset by using synthetic oil); Decrease in engine service life due to increased boundary wear under some operating conditions (this will cost more per mile driven or per engine operating hour); If you use thicker oil (SAE 40 or greater) under normal operating conditions there will be more resistance to motion due to the higher viscosity, and therefore worsened fuel economy. This loss in fuel economy is somewhat compensated for by: Decrease in oil consumption due to higher viscosity; Decrease in oil consumption due to lower volatility; Increase in engine service life due to reduced boundary wear and better separation of parts in relative motion; If the ambient or operating temperature is increased from the ideal or normal (70°F/212°F) then the oil viscosity must be increased to assure same level of protection and lubricating oil film integrity; It is not just better, but a must to use SAE 40 oil at 100°F ambient and SAE 50 at 120°F ambient. If the load is increased such as when towing, the oil viscosity must also be increased to assure the same level of protection. (use SAE 50 when towing);] End Quote

Ideal. References are required. Ideal means 'balanced' between wear and economy. The context IN the paragraph makes this evident.

Quote [Well the first specification is for light-duty engines (cars that are not expected to last beyond 70,000 to 150,000 miles) and the second for heavy duty engines (that is engines which are expected to last up to 1,000,000 miles). That is why oils which are labeled as HD (Heavy-Duty) must satisfy the second SAE 40 specification of 3.7 cP.] End quote.

Even a cursory glance at VOAs of various oils within the same SAE grade reveals a wide margin in HTHS values. Dig deeper and you will find that some blends have greater values than the next grade higher. Base oil selection is the key. For instance, Red Line HP 5W20 has a HTHS of 2.9 satisfying the SAE 30 requirement. Happy me, most high aniline point, high oxidation value, high solvency oils exhibit this behavior.

Then there is the issue of VII TEMPORY shear down. Not a number you will see published often without written request and then infrequently. That number in the PDS is the 100C LOW SHEAR value. Many VIIs are very shear sensitive. The 100C HIGH SHEAR number must also remain above the values listed for the specification IN SERVICE. It IS NOT the same number as the injector test value. The recoverable value. So, under high shear and elevated temperatures of towing, highspeed work, high ambient temperature and so on. FEW SHELF *W30 OILS CAN. A handful of boutiques will. :shakehead:

When that paper was written GDI was not as universal as it is today. 2% fuel is common as dirt these days and pumps fail often and without much fanfare.

Yes, reference is everything.