OCI, not when but why?

[KARNUT]

29 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Caterpillar at one time was recommending oil changes every 200 gallon of diesel fuel. Why not use fuel usage instead of miles? 

City or highway miles, doesn't matter to me. It's still miles.

Doing 4k OCI's on the Hyundai is 160 gallons of fuel used. The oil is dirty enough, wouldn't go longer.

Hyundai is the first manufacturer I ran into that actually recommended the severe maintenance schedule. My wife’s Genesis at 132K the oil is never dirty. With 4K oil changes. When I had my Camry they want you come in every 5K miles. Only do oil changes every 10K. Same with my odyssey. I do around 5K. Our equipment go by hours. Before Amsoil it was 250 hours. Amsoil we went 500. Those hours were at red line. Maximum duty cycle. The fuel usage depended on HP. Fifty to 100 gallons per day. With pollution devices on heavy equipment. Oil changes may be different. The hundreds of equipment I was involved with. Not one suggested earlier oil changes when new. My first new car was in 1973. No earlier oil changes. Three thousand miles oil changes were the rule.

[Black02Silverado]

On 2/11/2024 at 4:25 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

This is interesting.  I agree on early oil changes from new.  I have been doing it for a long time.  I don't see the use of taking samples so early on wear-in oil like that.  For him the cost is nothing so he can do it but personally it's not worth it until you get the miles on the vehicle.  Then you can start and see how the wear metals start to trend, which is hopefully down. 

 

Also, in today's vehicles, fuel dilution is a major issue and most don't know it.  One reason manufactures went to larger sumps. They know fuel dilution will be present.

 

I thought it was interesting that his test, at least I didn't see it in the video, that he didn't show nitration.  That is a key factor and why he didn't touch on it is interesting.

 

Also for the most part, the average person will listen to the owners manual and so going 10k oil changes is the norm for most of the vehicles on the road from Toyota and Honda as well as VW which have been preaching that for years.  Toyota has also changed the older models that once took 5w-30 now say you can use 0w-20. 

 

What would be interesting is to see high mileage vehicles that have followed that routine and what the oil sample would look like at 100k+ miles on it.

 

Yeah, Mobil oil company makes Toyota's oil.  Just like they make AC Delco oil.  Is it a bad oil?  I guess it depends on how one looks at it and if they want to keep their vehicle for a long time.

 

For me AMSOIL has been around over 50 years and is a small company.  For me, I would rather support a small company like AMSOIL than a major oil company that makes enough money as it is and just produces what they feel makes them money.  Like when Mobil 1 went from a PAO to a Group III but yet they still kept the price the same. At least that is my understanding from what research I have done.

[Black02Silverado]

On 2/18/2024 at 9:25 AM, VicFirth said:

What do you think of TEOST 33C?

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/gm-turbocharger-test-no-correlation-for-deposits-with-teost-33c-or-moly.305163/

 

If you want the best in keeping the inside clean, Signature Series is the best.  It's all I use. Considering my vehicles have fuel dilution issues, as in ours are high compared to most. I would rather have the best protection out there.

 

I was glad to see that AMSOIL came out with High Mileage as well as Hybrid oil.  There is a market for it and for the average consumer it works great. Especially those that trade often. 

 

Hybrids are a completely different breed and most don't realize it.  To the average person and engine is an engine.  But the hybrid oils AMSOIL developed is targeted at the harsh environment that hybrid engines run in.  IE, never getting up to temperature all the time, short cycling, start and run and run hard but then shut down.

 

I have been learning about the Stallantis  aka, Jeep's 4xE plug in hybrid.  That engine goes into FORM (Fuel Oil Refresh Mode) here is a link to a post explaining it if anyone is interested.  https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/what-is-fuel-oil-refresh-mode-form-and-why-is-my-electric-mode-unavailable.2362/

 

Interesting that it does this and it seems on the FB groups I'm in, that it is confusing people.  Amazing how dealerships don't bother to educate their sales people and then the sales people don't educate the buyers. Sad really.  But I would really like to see some UOA's on that 2.0 turbo engine after a few miles are on it. I would bet fuel dilution is through the roof as is the acid build up, but then I could be wrong.

 

 

[customboss]

18 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

If he’s wrong about something in particular in that video I’d genuinely like to know.

 

Personally, I think the person who buys a new Toyota and goes 10,000 miles on 0w8/0w16 before the first oil change is the real idiot, not him. 

His oil analysis testing lab is terrible. There is not enough info for him to draw the conclusions he mimics. He did this with the Joe Gibbs oil work he purported to be knee deep in. It’s an average at best lubricant. 
As Nick mentioned he doesn’t show any FTIR work. If he’s using SWRI he’s getting the bottom of the barrel work. 

[VicFirth]

4 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

If you want the best in keeping the inside clean, Signature Series is the best.  It's all I use. Considering my vehicles have fuel dilution issues, as in ours are high compared to most. I would rather have the best protection out there.

 

I was glad to see that AMSOIL came out with High Mileage as well as Hybrid oil.  There is a market for it and for the average consumer it works great. Especially those that trade often. 

 

Hybrids are a completely different breed and most don't realize it.  To the average person and engine is an engine.  But the hybrid oils AMSOIL developed is targeted at the harsh environment that hybrid engines run in.  IE, never getting up to temperature all the time, short cycling, start and run and run hard but then shut down.

 

I have been learning about the Stallantis  aka, Jeep's 4xE plug in hybrid.  That engine goes into FORM (Fuel Oil Refresh Mode) here is a link to a post explaining it if anyone is interested.  https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/what-is-fuel-oil-refresh-mode-form-and-why-is-my-electric-mode-unavailable.2362/

 

Interesting that it does this and it seems on the FB groups I'm in, that it is confusing people.  Amazing how dealerships don't bother to educate their sales people and then the sales people don't educate the buyers. Sad really.  But I would really like to see some UOA's on that 2.0 turbo engine after a few miles are on it. I would bet fuel dilution is through the roof as is the acid build up, but then I could be wrong.

 

 

 

Amsoil SS is a great oil.  I'd put HPL a tad above SS though for keeping the engine clean.  Amsoil SS does have great solvency though from what I understand.  

[Grumpy Bear]

On 2/18/2024 at 10:57 PM, KARNUT said:

Some of these replies are really humorous. I would venture that a person who changes their oil around 500 miles probably keeps their vehicle until the wheels fall off. You wouldn’t see their vehicles in the used car market. So using that logic most everyone else probably follows the manufacturer recommendations. Keeping that in mind everyone else is driving a time bomb. No not really. The longest lasting vehicles, Honda and Toyota recommend 10K oil changes. Most of those buyers tend to not only hang on to their vehicles. When they buy their next vehicle it’s usually the same brand. So those people would question who’s the idiot. As far as 500 mile oil change. I never did it. In fact my pulling rigs that traveled 50K miles a year. Usually went 25K miles on Amsoil before the first oil change. Those miles couldn’t be harder. I don’t do that anymore mainly because I don’t drive those miles anymore. And I have more time being retired. I see the wisdom now of changing the oil by 5K miles. Mainly because of driving habits now, less highway miles. If I was ripping the highway I’d go longer. 

 

Using that logic? Yea, your likely right. But the thing is, I wasn't using that logic. If you noted the bold, underlines, italicized portions of my post it would negate this very response. Fact is, it was meant to. I made no mistake in wordsmithing it. 

 

Ever hear the story of the hundredth monkey? ten thousand monkeys in the forest. If you can train one hundred of them to do a task a specific way the remainder will follow with zero training. There are millions of AFM trucks and cars on the road. A small fraction of them experiences cam/lifter failure but ENOUGH that every monkey in the forest things it is a certainty. I'm not a monkey. 

 

The very word average means there are examples above and below the mean. Spouting of a thousand examples of cars that go far beyond does not change the average. It ignores the remainder below the mean. It doesn't even change the narrative. It only changes the holder's view. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

12 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

This is interesting.  I agree on early oil changes from new.  I have been doing it for a long time.  I don't see the use of taking samples so early on wear-in oil like that.  For him the cost is nothing so he can do it but personally it's not worth it until you get the miles on the vehicle.  Then you can start and see how the wear metals start to trend, which is hopefully down. 

 

Also, in today's vehicles, fuel dilution is a major issue and most don't know it.  One reason manufactures went to larger sumps. They know fuel dilution will be present.

 

I thought it was interesting that his test, at least I didn't see it in the video, that he didn't show nitration.  That is a key factor and why he didn't touch on it is interesting.

 

Also for the most part, the average person will listen to the owners manual and so going 10k oil changes is the norm for most of the vehicles on the road from Toyota and Honda as well as VW which have been preaching that for years.  Toyota has also changed the older models that once took 5w-30 now say you can use 0w-20. 

 

What would be interesting is to see high mileage vehicles that have followed that routine and what the oil sample would look like at 100k+ miles on it.

 

Yeah, Mobil oil company makes Toyota's oil.  Just like they make AC Delco oil.  Is it a bad oil?  I guess it depends on how one looks at it and if they want to keep their vehicle for a long time.

 

For me AMSOIL has been around over 50 years and is a small company.  For me, I would rather support a small company like AMSOIL than a major oil company that makes enough money as it is and just produces what they feel makes them money.  Like when Mobil 1 went from a PAO to a Group III but yet they still kept the price the same. At least that is my understanding from what research I have done.

 

He isn't suggesting YOU do UOA's every OCI early on. He is showing the uninformed what he already knows to be true. Wear is high early on. His offer is proof that what he is saying is true. Look, what's the axiom? If you haven't got a picture, it didn't happen. Well, he gave you the picture. So, don't condemn the man for the thing you would have condemned him for had he not provided it. 

 

There is an axiom in law. "Never ask a witness a question you don't know the answer to".  

 

Nitration? TD is the only person on the planet that thinks this is an issue in anything but low speed (circa 700 rpm), cold jacket water (under 160F), Natural Gas ICE's.  Causes of Nitration in Engine Oil (machinerylubrication.com). Calling one guy out on not mentioning a problem the entire community ignores to hold one man's idea to the light? Read the entire post. You will find the cherry-picked facts used to support the idea.

 

How can AMOSOIL Signature Series improve on this?  

What would that even look like?

 

 

 

 

 

[KARNUT]

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Using that logic? Yea, your likely right. But the thing is, I wasn't using that logic. If you noted the bold, underlines, italicized portions of my post it would negate this very response. Fact is, it was meant to. I made no mistake in wordsmithing it. 

 

Ever hear the story of the hundredth monkey? ten thousand monkeys in the forest. If you can train one hundred of them to do a task a specific way the remainder will follow with zero training. There are millions of AFM trucks and cars on the road. A small fraction of them experiences cam/lifter failure but ENOUGH that every monkey in the forest things it is a certainty. I'm not a monkey. 

 

The very word average means there are examples above and below the mean. Spouting of a thousand examples of cars that go far beyond does not change the average. It ignores the remainder below the mean. It doesn't even change the narrative. It only changes the holder's view. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mentioned nothing about cylinder deactivation in my post. I was referring to the idea of 500 mile oil changes and the people who may do it. You’re driving a truck you plan on keeping a few more years. You didn’t buy it new. The likelihood it had a 500 mile oil change is very low. I also read a Honda forum. Several threads talk about turning off their cylinder deactivation. Nothing about failure. So someone does it right. The ticking time bomb was in jest. Referring to idea that if you didn’t do a 500 mile oil change. You shorted engine life. I mention several years ago we had a salvage yard. Most car we bought from the general public were driven to us. Usually what ended their time on the road was the inability to pass emissions. The old check engine light. I watch shows like Vice Grip garage on YouTube. Most of the vehicles that get rescued will run. They were parked for other reasons. Most vehicles are put out of service not for engine failure. Usually it’s emissions or electrical. The cost to fix. If the 500 mile oil change makes you feel warm and fuzzy. By all means do it. Is it necessary well that’s another story.

[Black02Silverado]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

He isn't suggesting YOU do UOA's every OCI early on. He is showing the uninformed what he already knows to be true. Wear is high early on. His offer is proof that what he is saying is true. Look, what's the axiom? If you haven't got a picture, it didn't happen. Well, he gave you the picture. So, don't condemn the man for the thing you would have condemned him for had he not provided it. 

 

There is an axiom in law. "Never ask a witness a question you don't know the answer to".  

 

Nitration? TD is the only person on the planet that thinks this is an issue in anything but low speed (circa 700 rpm), cold jacket water (under 160F), Natural Gas ICE's.  Causes of Nitration in Engine Oil (machinerylubrication.com). Calling one guy out on not mentioning a problem the entire community ignores to hold one man's idea to the light? Read the entire post. You will find the cherry-picked facts used to support the idea.

 

How can AMOSOIL Signature Series improve on this?  

What would that even look like?

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't mean to make it sound like he was wanting everyone to take an oil sample early and agree to what you are saying. 

For the nitration part.  I'm not versed in this as much as most, but from all the UOA's I have done and seen, Nitration plays a major part in wear particles.  Again, I don't have a large database to bump off but the ones that I have seen, when nitration was below 10, the UOA was one that showed great results.  All the ones where it was high the UOA was not favorable.

 

Combustion efficiency I would think is important and it's my understanding nitration is a factor of it.

 

Also, if you are going to want a good representation of a UOA, wouldn't it be best to get every test available to look at the picture as a whole and not just what one feels are the main indicators?

 

How can you determine a trend if all the information isn't there to point you in the correct direction?

 

Kind of like a doctor telling you you have a cold and not a virus just because all he evaluated was that you had a runny nose.

[customboss]

10 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

He isn't suggesting YOU do UOA's every OCI early on. He is showing the uninformed what he already knows to be true. Wear is high early on. His offer is proof that what he is saying is true. Look, what's the axiom? If you haven't got a picture, it didn't happen. Well, he gave you the picture. So, don't condemn the man for the thing you would have condemned him for had he not provided it. 

 

There is an axiom in law. "Never ask a witness a question you don't know the answer to".  

 

Nitration? TD is the only person on the planet that thinks this is an issue in anything but low speed (circa 700 rpm), cold jacket water (under 160F), Natural Gas ICE's.  Causes of Nitration in Engine Oil (machinerylubrication.com). Calling one guy out on not mentioning a problem the entire community ignores to hold one man's idea to the light? Read the entire post. You will find the cherry-picked facts used to support the idea.

 

How can AMOSOIL Signature Series improve on this?  

What would that even look like?

 

 

 

 

 

Grumps You get all your info from interwebs. So you don’t have access to pros doing oil analysis for R&D level engine testing. Here you can spout your “knowledge”. What I did before retiring is still my proprietary knowledge I got paid to share the results of. If a person buys oil analysis and it’s not using FTIR, RAMEN, or near FTIR you have a major blind spot on a IC engine. 
Grumpy knows best. Lol

PS it’s Lee to you. 

Edited February 20, 2024 by customboss

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

I didn't mean to make it sound like he was wanting everyone to take an oil sample early and agree to what you are saying. 

For the nitration part.  I'm not versed in this as much as most, but from all the UOA's I have done and seen, Nitration plays a major part in wear particles.  Again, I don't have a large database to bump off but the ones that I have seen, when nitration was below 10, the UOA was one that showed great results.  All the ones where it was high the UOA was not favorable.

 

Combustion efficiency I would think is important and it's my understanding nitration is a factor of it.

 

Also, if you are going to want a good representation of a UOA, wouldn't it be best to get every test available to look at the picture as a whole and not just what one feels are the main indicators?

 

How can you determine a trend if all the information isn't there to point you in the correct direction?

 

Kind of like a doctor telling you you have a cold and not a virus just because all he evaluated was that you had a runny nose.

 

Let's run with that medical analogy. Does a runny nose mean I need full blood work, EKG, EEG and an MRI? 

 

Let's ask a simple question.

 

Question: What is the result or fear of Nitration above 10?

 

Answer: Oil thickening.

 

Question: Are we seeing large jumps, percentage wise, in viscosity that you can correlate specifically to a Nitration level of 10?  

 

Answer: Nope. 

 

What is the background Nitration of the reference sample? 

 

Answer: 5 to 12 but without a VOA it's a guess. 

 

Question: By what magic is this number irrelevant?  

 

Answer: It is relevant. Nothing can happen to it that doesn't happen to 'new' species made. They don't just disappear. 

 

Try the link below. (pay attention to this paragraph at the end of page 1) and the next page under troubleshooting and not it is TRENDED. 

 

 

From Mobil on Nitration. 

https://www.mobil.com/industrial/~/media/files/global/us/industrial/tech-topics/tt-nitration-in-natural-gas-engines.pdf

 

Degradation Patterns Four-cycle gas engines: Organic nitrates decompose rapidly at temperatures above 300°F. They are the main cause of oil deterioration in low-speed (below 700 rpm), four-cycle gas engines because cylinder wall temperatures usually are below 320°F, even in ebullient-cooled units. Where cylinder wall temperatures exceed 320°F, the higher temperatures promote oil oxidation which is the main cause of oil deterioration in small, high-speed, four-cycle gas engines. Two-cycle gas engines: Oxidation is the main cause of deterioration in two-cycle engines with separate power cylinder lubrication systems. Nitrated products are scavenged out of the exhaust ports and thereby prevented from contaminating the crankcase charge. The presence of even moderate nitration in these units, however, is a strong indication that excessive oil feed to the cylinders is being scraped down into the crankcase.

 

I don't pay it any mind. Not the way I run my equipment. Now, if I had a hybrid or a car that never got more than 15 minutes between complete cooldowns; Grandmothers' car for example, I would pay it more mind.  

 

 

 

 

  

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Let's run with that medical analogy. Does a runny nose mean I need full blood work, EKG, EEG and an MRI? 

 

You don't know the oil analysis analogy difference between a runny nose and cancer. Respectfully of course.....

[customboss]

4 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

What is the background Nitration of the reference sample? 

 

Doesn't matter ( how many times do I have to remind you of this????) when testing a IC engine that  pours NOx into the oil via all the normal methods from combustion chamber including EGR and VVT effects.  Baseline nitration means nothing after you fire the engine. 

Edited February 21, 2024 by customboss

[VicFirth]

Amsoil SS does well.  I know it's been a blend of GTL, PAO and esters.  Oxidation spike on virgin oil samples.  Keeps engines very clean as well. 

Edited February 20, 2024 by VicFirth

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Amsoil SS does well.  I know it's been a blend of GTL, PAO and esters.  Oxidation spike on virgin oil samples.  Keeps engines very clean as well. 

 

Tell me more. How did you find the base oil blend and what is the OX level.