OCI, not when but why?

VicFirth · December 28, 2023

It appears to me that the off the shelf oils are ok on detergents (although low), but lack the solvency because they don't use the more expensive group V base oils. I wish he had mentioned something about solvency. AN's can dissolve deposits.

So with your HPL, Amsoil SS, Red Line, you're getting strong detergents and solvency.

Grumpy Bear · December 28, 2023

Antioxidants. Base oils natural oxidation resistance, detergency, solvency, dispersancy, fresh oil dilution (aka the oil change), heat and agitation, all play important roles. As does the motor's mechanical and operational particulars. Ring seal and time at heat chief among them.

The longer I live the more convinced I become that there is no such thing as a 'standard' OCI. As customboss and our resident AMSOIL guy, Nick, say often and I will be happy to parrot, "Hand in glove".

Commodity products do what they must to be competitive in a commodity market. They leave out as many things as possible enhancing the margin. They absolutely work. Just not as long.

I get the results I get, the results my father got, by stacking the deck in the motors favor. He and I used very different products and got the same results. The less capable the oil and the harsher the environment the shorter the OCI.

Dad: Straight cut mineral oils using the processing and additive packages of the 50's/60's in motors of the period, and he drives everything he owns with purpose. His OCI was 1K with a once in a while push to 1.5K. His motors are as clean inside as mine at 500K as mine are a 165K. Spic and span.

I use high solvency boutique oils withy full to med SAPS add packs, coolers, finer filtration. Drive conservatively. 5K in healthy larger motors and 7.5K in smaller healthy motors. Much sorter in hurt motors with lesser oils.

You have to FIND the OCI and be flexible with it as age, miles and condition warrant.

Grumpy Bear · December 29, 2023

Valvoline Restore and Protect says:

Will make the piston on the right look like the piston on the left.

I say, "If you change oil often enough it will always look like the piston on the left"!

:idiot:

Often enough depends on the oil's ability and the driver's treatment of the powertrain.

Tell me how any OEM can put a number on that?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

diyer2 · December 30, 2023

Proof that when the oil is saturated with junk, it deposits it inside the engine. Not a new revelation to me, but with the longer OCI's a concern.

VicFirth · December 30, 2023

19 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Valvoline Restore and Protect says:

Will make the piston on the right look like the piston on the left.

I say, "If you change oil often enough it will always look like the piston on the left"!

Often enough depends on the oil's ability and the driver's treatment of the powertrain.

Tell me how any OEM can put a number on that?

Right. If you're using a well formulated oil with high solvency and a stout detergent and dispersant package you'll never need this Restore and Protect Oil. At what point does the R&P oil stop cleaning? What if your OCI is 7,500-10,000 miles....is that benefit gone due to oil contamination and oxidation?

diyer2 · December 30, 2023

Shorten the OCI's, problem fixed.

customboss · December 30, 2023

22 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Valvoline Restore and Protect says:

Will make the piston on the right look like the piston on the left.

I say, "If you change oil often enough it will always look like the piston on the left"!

Often enough depends on the oil's ability and the driver's treatment of the powertrain.

Tell me how any OEM can put a number on that?

Wrong. Engine oil can't clean unless its formulated to. It can keep clean. Maybe. Most of us will allow 2-7% fuels dilution following factory recommendations that meet EXHAUST emissions limits while the engine drowns in polymeric and fuel additives in the crankcase which have NOTHING to do with engine oil.

VicFirth · December 30, 2023

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Wrong. Engine oil can't clean unless its formulated to. It can keep clean. Maybe. Most of us will allow 2-7% fuels dilution following factory recommendations that meet EXHAUST emissions limits while the engine drowns in polymeric and fuel additives in the crankcase which have NOTHING to do with engine oil.

I've been interested in this question. From the reading I've done, it appears that oils using even the most high-end base oils like esters and AN's will "run clean" but not always necessarily clean. Maybe AN's can clean per King Industries literature.

Here is a piston shot from Amsoil SS after a double Sequence IIIH run (180 hours @ 304F). This is on the preventative side.

Edited December 30, 2023 by VicFirth

VicFirth · December 30, 2023

I'm not sure how applicable this is to automotive engines.

PowerPoint Presentation (stle.org)

Grumpy Bear · December 30, 2023

2 hours ago, customboss said:

Wrong. Engine oil can't clean unless its formulated to. It can keep clean. Maybe. Most of us will allow 2-7% fuels dilution following factory recommendations that meet EXHAUST emissions limits while the engine drowns in polymeric and fuel additives in the crankcase which have NOTHING to do with engine oil.

Where, pray tell did I say otherwise?

I said if the OCI is short enough it won't GET dirty.

Not sure what part you are in disagreement with. not many sentences in that post. :crackup:

You want to keep those lands clean with 7% fuel. Shorten the OCI until you fix the problem.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · December 30, 2023

5 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Right. If you're using a well formulated oil with high solvency and a stout detergent and dispersant package you'll never need this Restore and Protect Oil. At what point does the R&P oil stop cleaning? What if your OCI is 7,500-10,000 miles....is that benefit gone due to oil contamination and oxidation?

Just like church Vic. Ya got to put in the work to get the result. Test, test and test some more until you FIND its limit.

Same answer to the question, "when does a bar of soap stop getting soapy" When it's (additive depleted) gone?

Grumpy Bear · December 30, 2023

I understand the overwhelming resistance to testing. It's much easier to just go with the flow and then complain when you get the results the herd gets from doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

:idiot:

This OCI question is like asking how long does it take a quart of water to evaporate?

The OEM gives an educated GUESS based on Joe Average, warranty dollars, need to sell you again and current line of product specifications. It's self-serving and self-feeding. YOU are a very small part of THEIR equation.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

VicFirth · December 30, 2023

I was told HPL oils are formulated to clean. In HPL's case I think it's the ANs doing the cleaning. To what degree I don't know.

Edited December 30, 2023 by VicFirth

Grumpy Bear · December 30, 2023

7 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

I was told HPL oils are formulated to clean. In HPL's case I think it's the ANs doing the cleaning. To what degree I don't know.

The AN adds polarity (solvency). It's the esters that do the bullwork. Think of AN as dish soap and Esters as the Brillo pad.

It may very well be the AN also contributes but I've not seen, yet, a published peer reviewed paper on this.

KARNUT · December 30, 2023

I have two vehicles that had under 4K oil changes. My avalanche had 165K when I got it. According to his detailed maintenance records he did 3K oil changes. My wife’s Genesis has 132K now. The dealer recommended going with the severe service maintenance. With 10/100K bumper to bumper warranty I followed their recommendation. Both those vehicles oils stay new looking between changes. In contrast my daughter followed the minders on the odyssey. When I got it the oil was dirty looking with only 5K miles on its current oil change and the transmission was acting up. I changed the transmission fluid and the oil. Cured the transmission funky shifting but the oil still looks dark within 2K miles. With the odyssey having cylinder deactivation I’ve been doing 3K oil changes. Probably will stay with that unless the oil looks better. I didn’t before but now I believe in more frequent oil changes especially if you’re looking for 200K miles out of your vehicle.