2500hd gasser

[Chuck FB]

14 minutes ago, Lpfm1990 said:

Sounds either like you were on 441? Or the foothills parkway? Both of them are child’s play compared to some of the grades on the cherohala, it’s a beautiful road, and on my bikes it’s not even a crazy road (tail of the dragon or Devil’s Triangle), and I’ve seen similar when I following a dodge Dakota that was riding his brakes that you could visibility see the smoke as we followed behind. 

I looked at the map and yes it was 441, and like you say its nothing on a scale of difficult and why it didn't stand out in that way. What did cause me to remember it was that the pass was shut down for a few days because they had a heavy snow fall up there and it was taking them time to get it opened up. Then when it was open and I went over it, it was like fall time weather to me on the north end, same nice weather on the south end but windy and quite nasty cold up top on the divide ... and a young lady had slid on the ice in the divide parking lot and went up a snow plowed bank and the park service officers were trying to dig her out of her mess, that was an amusing little episode. I believe I would have connected up with highway 74 and so I obviously bypassed the southern end of the interesting roads as per the Cherohala and the Tail of the Dragon, both of which I had not heard of until later in hearing about the Tail of the Dragon. I was headed to Chattanooga and went down into the subterranean cave to see Ruby Falls.

 

Speaking of truck to trailer relative sizing to give you a laugh, one winter my parents ( this is a long time ago ) had headed south to Arizona/California and rather than tow a larger trailer on that trip my dad decided to travel light and bought a 13 foot boler trailer to tow behind his 1978 GM one ton dually crew cab long box that he had a specialty company swap in a diesel engine not long after he bought it. I rather doubt that size trailer even had brakes on them and it really didn't matter with that size of a tow vehicle. Probably not very often would one see what amounts to an egg on wheels being pulled by that size of truck but there was no tail wagging the dog with that setup !

[OS RR]

Sometimes I feel like the 10L1000 valve body issues is overblown.

 

At the same time the general public seems to be confusing it with the 10L80 (which is the "Ford/GM' design that has issues I guess).

 

I get an odd shift out of mine every now and then but otherwise its been fine for 10k miles so far.

[Lpfm1990]

I’d never been down to that area till 2022, and my mind was blown with the roads, there’s like no straight roads, even the bridges have turns and are banked lol. Way different than roads here near Buffalo ny. 441 is fun coming out of Gatlinburg, between the elk, and the spiral tunnel that makes a 360. 
 

I didn’t make it down there last year. But I definitely wanna make it back, if it’s with friends I’ll stay in robbinsville again, if it’s by myself. I’ll stay up in Tellico plains and let my sport bikes take the twisties and hills instead lol

[Chuck FB]

10 minutes ago, Lpfm1990 said:

I’d never been down to that area till 2022, and my mind was blown with the roads, there’s like no straight roads, even the bridges have turns and are banked lol. Way different than roads here near Buffalo ny. 441 is fun coming out of Gatlinburg, between the elk, and the spiral tunnel that makes a 360. 
 

I didn’t make it down there last year. But I definitely wanna make it back, if it’s with friends I’ll stay in robbinsville again, if it’s by myself. I’ll stay up in Tellico plains and let my sport bikes take the twisties and hills instead lol

It was just before Christmas when I was in Gatlinburg, the only reason I went there was that someone down there had suggested it and ended up staying there for longer than I intended but did do that loop road that would be within the Smoky Mountain National Park which has various cabins and buildings on that one way road. I drove up to the ski hill just for a laugh as I never went skiing but just to tour around. I imagine its plenty warm down there during the summer but sure seemed quite ok to me in Tennessee and Alabama during the winter, and north central Florida was too hot LOL, the gulf "Of America" and the Atlantic side didn't seem to bad either, not exactly the best beach weather though. Never got down past the Daytona area as it would have been nicer further south no doubt on the coast. It all beat the 40 below here in the Canadian arctic ( well not quite that far north ). Friends of mine have talked about wanting to go down to the Tail of the Dragon but by taking their bikes all the way down there and that would be at least 2700 miles or more one way.

[KARNUT]

38 minutes ago, Chuck FB said:

I looked at the map and yes it was 441, and like you say its nothing on a scale of difficult and why it didn't stand out in that way. What did cause me to remember it was that the pass was shut down for a few days because they had a heavy snow fall up there and it was taking them time to get it opened up. Then when it was open and I went over it, it was like fall time weather to me on the north end, same nice weather on the south end but windy and quite nasty cold up top on the divide ... and a young lady had slid on the ice in the divide parking lot and went up a snow plowed bank and the park service officers were trying to dig her out of her mess, that was an amusing little episode. I believe I would have connected up with highway 74 and so I obviously bypassed the southern end of the interesting roads as per the Cherohala and the Tail of the Dragon, both of which I had not heard of until later in hearing about the Tail of the Dragon. I was headed to Chattanooga and went down into the subterranean cave to see Ruby Falls.

 

Speaking of truck to trailer relative sizing to give you a laugh, one winter my parents ( this is a long time ago ) had headed south to Arizona/California and rather than tow a larger trailer on that trip my dad decided to travel light and bought a 13 foot boler trailer to tow behind his 1978 GM one ton dually crew cab long box that he had a specialty company swap in a diesel engine not long after he bought it. I rather doubt that size trailer even had brakes on them and it really didn't matter with that size of a tow vehicle. Probably not very often would one see what amounts to an egg on wheels being pulled by that size of truck but there was no tail wagging the dog with that setup !

I’m trying to rack my brain. What they do pull one out of a farm tractor? What did they use for a transmission. Don’t tell me it was a 5.7 Oldsmobile diesel engine. We had several of those. A nightmare. The 6.5s weren’t too bad, that was later.

[Chuck FB]

1 minute ago, KARNUT said:

I’m trying to rack my brain. What they do pull one out of a farm tractor? What did they use for a transmission. Don’t tell me it was a 5.7 Oldsmobile diesel engine. We had several of those. A nightmare. The 6.5s weren’t too bad, that was later.

There were various engines that got transplanted into pickups back in those days, since my dads truck was a two wheel drive it did not have the suspension that could be lifted like a sold axle 4x4 to stuff a larger engine into and that shop wasn't doing that anyway. So what they were using was a Isuzu inline 6 engine that I believe had some industrial applications and would have been built in Japan and is around 350 to 360 cubic inches I think, unfortunately at that time it was a naturally aspirated engine and not made to withstand being cranked up with larger injectors and a turbo as that model engine had no under piston oil squirters. However my dad had a turbo added to it not too long after without changing the fuel and that helped a lot, most definitely at altitude. What the engine was mated to was the stock 4 speed standard transmission and I suspect that shop either was making an adapter or such was sourced. Right off the bat when my dad bought the truck he installed a 3 speed auxiliary transmission behind the main transmission that would have come out of a lighter tandem axle truck and was re-bearinged. However those transmissions are non syncro and as truckers would refer to them as the hunt and crash transmission. It takes skill and practice to drive that truck and effectively it has 12 forward gears, the three speed gave it an underdrive/direct/overdrive. By todays standards that truck is extremely underpowered but never the less somehow for a while there my dad was towing a triple axle 38 foot fifth wheel from Arizona to northern Washington state, I bet that was a thrill to struggle with on the highway.

 

The good ole 350 Olds diesel, that's another story as my dad talked my brother into buying a new 1980 Chev with what turned out to be as you well know, a shitpile of an engine and he literally gave it away some years later as their resale value went to crap for good reason. It didn't even have that many miles on it and the injectors were replaced at least once and then crapping out again as it would run rough and spit black gunk out of the tailpipe. That engine sure damaged GM's diesel reputation until the 6.2 came out and proved itself although it was no powerhouse either and then like you said the 6.5 turbo came out and it had decent power for the day, its issue was that electronic fuel injection system that would crap out .. a few friends had owned them. Where my dad went to get the turbo installed on his one ton in the states as it was anything but a drop in installation, I don't recall the name of the person that owned that shop but he was big in the diesel world at the time ( no it wasn't Banks but another very smart person ) , and GM had consulted him as an outside expert with their plans of using the 350 olds block and building a diesel out of that. He told GM, DO NOT BUILD IT ... and you know the rest of the story LOL. 

 

Other engines I recall my dad talking about were certain Detroit two cycles being put into pickups and he personally saw and talked to an owner of a pickup ( and that was a 4x4 ) of a guy who had stuffed a 3208 Cat into it, looking up the weight of the engine I see 1800 pounds ... anyway in later years Cat cranked more and more power out of that engine and yet now Ford for example has just surpassed the hp and torque of what the last of the Cat 3208 engines built were putting out. That shows the technology of the high pressure fuel system and multi firing injectors and the turbo system that has progressed since the late 1990's. Highway tractors years ago didn't have near the power that current diesel pickups have !

[Another JR]

1 hour ago, OS RR said:

Sometimes I feel like the 10L1000 valve body issues is overblown.

 

At the same time the general public seems to be confusing it with the 10L80 (which is the "Ford/GM' design that has issues I guess).

 

I get an odd shift out of mine every now and then but otherwise its been fine for 10k miles so far.

Fishnitro posted that his failed at 35k miles.  My neighbor’s failed at less than 20k, breaking the transfer case on his dually. His was an early failure, so he was able to get parts. Fishnitro called his selling dealer a month ago and they said they had 20 trucks waiting for parts, some since November. 

 

[KARNUT]

3 minutes ago, Chuck FB said:

There were various engines that got transplanted into pickups back in those days, since my dads truck was a two wheel drive it did not have the suspension that could be lifted like a sold axle 4x4 to stuff a larger engine into and that shop wasn't doing that anyway. So what they were using was a Isuzu inline 6 engine that I believe had some industrial applications and would have been built in Japan and is around 350 to 360 cubic inches I think, unfortunately at that time it was a naturally aspirated engine and not made to withstand being cranked up with larger injectors and a turbo as that model engine had no under piston oil squirters. However my dad had a turbo added to it not too long after without changing the fuel and that helped a lot, most definitely at altitude. What the engine was mated to was the stock 4 speed standard transmission and I suspect that shop either was making an adapter or such was sourced. Right off the bat when my dad bought the truck he installed a 3 speed auxiliary transmission behind the main transmission that would have come out of a lighter tandem axle truck and was re-bearinged. However those transmissions are non syncro and as truckers would refer to them as the hunt and crash transmission. It takes skill and practice to drive that truck and effectively it has 12 forward gears, the three speed gave it an underdrive/direct/overdrive. By todays standards that truck is extremely underpowered but never the less somehow for a while there my dad was towing a triple axle 38 foot fifth wheel from Arizona to northern Washington state, I bet that was a thrill to struggle with on the highway.

 

The good ole 350 Olds diesel, that's another story as my dad talked my brother into buying a new 1980 Chev with what turned out to be as you well know, a shitpile of an engine and he literally gave it away some years later as their resale value went to crap for good reason. It didn't even have that many miles on it and the injectors were replaced at least once and then crapping out again as it would run rough and spit black gunk out of the tailpipe. That engine sure damaged GM's diesel reputation until the 6.2 came out and proved itself although it was no powerhouse either and then like you said the 6.5 turbo came out and it had decent power for the day, its issue was that electronic fuel injection system that would crap out .. a few friends had owned them. Where my dad went to get the turbo installed on his one ton in the states as it was anything but a drop in installation, I don't recall the name of the person that owned that shop but he was big in the diesel world at the time ( no it wasn't Banks but another very smart person ) , and GM had consulted him as an outside expert with their plans of using the 350 olds block and building a diesel out of that. He told GM, DO NOT BUILD IT ... and you know the rest of the story LOL. 

 

Other engines I recall my dad talking about were certain Detroit two cycles being put into pickups and he personally saw and talked to an owner of a pickup ( and that was a 4x4 ) of a guy who had stuffed a 3208 Cat into it, looking up the weight of the engine I see 1800 pounds ... anyway in later years Cat cranked more and more power out of that engine and yet now Ford for example has just surpassed the hp and torque of what the last of the Cat 3208 engines built were putting out. That shows the technology of the high pressure fuel system and multi firing injectors and the turbo system that has progressed since the late 1990's. Highway tractors years ago didn't have near the power that current diesel pickups have !

I’ve seen 3208s done. We just modified 390s and 454s until 1988 when we got our First Ford 7.3 non turbo diesel. We put a banks on it and an over drive behind the C-6. We were too busy with our business to get too creative. We just modified we off the shelf stuff. Sounds like your dad had a blast with his stuff. Sometimes it’s where you are and who you know that dictates what you do. Our experience with the 6.5 diesel was they were good for 100K miles before they get expensive. About the time the warranty runs out. My first diesel was a 91 dodge Cummins. It was turned up like all my trucks. I pulled 25K combination with it. Our trailers were built to stop the load. Our equipment was centered to eliminate sagging the truck. My trucks were geared to 65 mph highway speed with enough TQ for hills.That was the 90s. Now they do that stock without mods. 

[Chuck FB]

3 minutes ago, Another JR said:

Fishnitro posted that his failed at 35k miles.  My neighbor’s failed at less than 20k, breaking the transfer case on his dually. His was an early failure, so he was able to get parts. Fishnitro called his selling dealer a month ago and they said they had 20 trucks waiting for parts, some since November. 

 

Do you know what years those were or build date within the year ... if they stretched into 2024.

 

With the messes that are occurring, has anyone spoken to the powers that be at the dealership level to see if they would still cover a transmission issue of one installed a kit from Nextgen or a modified refurbished valve body from them or another company I see is SunCoast that does valve body mods. These aftermarket companies didn't invest all that money into not just valve body mods but other assemblies as well that are weak area's. But that valve body or at least the second generation of them seems to be that ticking time bomb as to when it will fail. I don't know if the third generation of the valve bodies is a reasonable fix or not, not sure when they did those changes.

[Chuck FB]

8 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I’ve seen 3208s done. We just modified 390s and 454s until 1988 when we got our First Ford 7.3 non turbo diesel. We put a banks on it and an over drive behind the C-6. We were too busy with our business to get too creative. We just modified we off the shelf stuff. Sounds like your dad had a blast with his stuff. Sometimes it’s where you are and who you know that dictates what you do. Our experience with the 6.5 diesel was they were good for 100K miles before they get expensive. About the time the warranty runs out. My first diesel was a 91 dodge Cummins. It was turned up like all my trucks. I pulled 25K combination with it. Our trailers were built to stop the load. Our equipment was centered to eliminate sagging the truck. My trucks were geared to 65 mph highway speed with enough TQ for hills.That was the 90s. Now they do that stock without mods. 

That is one pile of weight to put on the front axle of a pickup as per the 3208. There was no one around here it seemed that was knowledgeable on doing engine swaps of that sort, and my dad was determined to have it done so all the way from northern Alberta to Toronto to have them do the engine and I believe it was somewhere in California where the turbo was installed as either the intake or exhaust manifold itself had to be modified to a one off design and yet it looks factory, someone was extremely skilled in that shop.

 

When the Dodge Cummins came out and guys started buying them for the engine ( they certainly were not buying them for the pickup the engine sat in ) that jumped Dodge ahead big time and was the smart move that kept them alive. The problem up here is rust, those older trucks are long gone unless someone kept the truck off the winter roads from day one.

 

Speaking of loads for pickups, there was a guy in the area who also farmed but he also got into hauling equipment with pickups and using a pickup with either 350 gas engines or the 454 but he did some amazing things with the 350 engine which defy physics. He would go into the states and buy a certain brand of tandem axle gooseneck new, then have a new Massey 750 combine loaded onto it with the front tires taken off and haul that the thousands of miles up here to Alberta and the combine would be sold through the dealership and he would sell these trailers privately. All the trailer had is two 10000 axles with duals and they had a vacuum over hydraulic disk brake system. He also hauled Versatile 850 tractors and I know with the duals on the tractor they weigh 24000 pounds. So 24000 pound load plus the trailer plus the truck weight. Not sure what the total weight was but must have been pushing a combined weight of 35000 pounds and all with a 350 engine screaming down the road at 5000 rpm he claimed and doing that for many thousands of miles on a pickup. Yes, if it was physically impossible just watch him do it, if anyone else tried a stunt like that it would be a disaster.

[Another JR]

40 minutes ago, Chuck FB said:

Do you know what years those were or build date within the year ... if they stretched into 2024.

 

With the messes that are occurring, has anyone spoken to the powers that be at the dealership level to see if they would still cover a transmission issue of one installed a kit from Nextgen or a modified refurbished valve body from them or another company I see is SunCoast that does valve body mods. These aftermarket companies didn't invest all that money into not just valve body mods but other assemblies as well that are weak area's. But that valve body or at least the second generation of them seems to be that ticking time bomb as to when it will fail. I don't know if the third generation of the valve bodies is a reasonable fix or not, not sure when they did those changes.

Fishnitro’s is a 2024. My neighbor’s is a 2021. 

 

[KARNUT]

1 hour ago, Chuck FB said:

That is one pile of weight to put on the front axle of a pickup as per the 3208. There was no one around here it seemed that was knowledgeable on doing engine swaps of that sort, and my dad was determined to have it done so all the way from northern Alberta to Toronto to have them do the engine and I believe it was somewhere in California where the turbo was installed as either the intake or exhaust manifold itself had to be modified to a one off design and yet it looks factory, someone was extremely skilled in that shop.

 

When the Dodge Cummins came out and guys started buying them for the engine ( they certainly were not buying them for the pickup the engine sat in ) that jumped Dodge ahead big time and was the smart move that kept them alive. The problem up here is rust, those older trucks are long gone unless someone kept the truck off the winter roads from day one.

 

Speaking of loads for pickups, there was a guy in the area who also farmed but he also got into hauling equipment with pickups and using a pickup with either 350 gas engines or the 454 but he did some amazing things with the 350 engine which defy physics. He would go into the states and buy a certain brand of tandem axle gooseneck new, then have a new Massey 750 combine loaded onto it with the front tires taken off and haul that the thousands of miles up here to Alberta and the combine would be sold through the dealership and he would sell these trailers privately. All the trailer had is two 10000 axles with duals and they had a vacuum over hydraulic disk brake system. He also hauled Versatile 850 tractors and I know with the duals on the tractor they weigh 24000 pounds. So 24000 pound load plus the trailer plus the truck weight. Not sure what the total weight was but must have been pushing a combined weight of 35000 pounds and all with a 350 engine screaming down the road at 5000 rpm he claimed and doing that for many thousands of miles on a pickup. Yes, if it was physically impossible just watch him do it, if anyone else tried a stunt like that it would be a disaster.

We sold about 200 versatile tractors. First 256 then 276 up to when Ford bought them. We pulled out the pto and put a hydraulic pump there. Hook a hydraulic motor to our treeater Turn the seat around facing the loader arms. Build belly pans, screens around the glass. Add forestry tires and clear pipelines, utility lines and cleared lots with them. I spent about 20 years in the seat of those. The trailer you describe is what I used to haul them. 

[Lpfm1990]

From google search’s and reading, if I understand correctly, the MY25 10L1000 has a different part number then the MY23 and MY24? Maybe gm “fixed” something that was the failure point???? Or just a pn change for the hell of it?

[Chuck FB]

1 hour ago, KARNUT said:

We sold about 200 versatile tractors. First 256 then 276 up to when Ford bought them. We pulled out the pto and put a hydraulic pump there. Hook a hydraulic motor to our treeater Turn the seat around facing the loader arms. Build belly pans, screens around the glass. Add forestry tires and clear pipelines, utility lines and cleared lots with them. I spent about 20 years in the seat of those. The trailer you describe is what I used to haul them. 

Those were unique and popular units that some farms made use of, certainly cattle operations. While I don't recall seeing a unit set up for the work you describe around here, its possible they existed and never noticed them. Tracked skid steers became the big thing with what might be a similar attachment to mow down smaller trees and so forth and then larger more dedicated type units for the same purpose. But back to the 276 for example as I looked up the spec on that with the front end loader, two of those in weight is what this guy was hauling in weight total on one of the trailers and I don't know how that was any legal load.

[Chuck FB]

45 minutes ago, Lpfm1990 said:

From google search’s and reading, if I understand correctly, the MY25 10L1000 has a different part number then the MY23 and MY24? Maybe gm “fixed” something that was the failure point???? Or just a pn change for the hell of it?

Very good question and like a lot of things manufactured through large corporations it can be difficult to determine what is changed on an assembly as its almost like they don't want to share that information.

 

And going back to your original question of what is the better pickup choice, Ford or GM were the ones you highlighted. What worried me about the Ford were the valve train failures that the 7.3 was having and that went on for quite a while and cooled my interest. I "think" they have resolved that with increasing the oil pump flow and not sure if substandard lifter or cam material was part of the problem or not as I never did hear a full explanation of the whole issue. Also that high speed steering wobble issue that plagued trucks randomly didn't excite me, that went on for years and that may have been resolved but really never have heard one way or the other. A nephew had a 2018 3/4 ton with the gas 6.2 and very early on he had high speed wobble multiple times and was into Ford numerous times for that, also he said the ride was pretty horrendous ( compared to his Ram 2500 ) and I've had a demo of that vintage of truck compared to a GM on pothole roads and I certainly preferred the GM although I realize the front end of a GM is not as tough. Ford was having some issues with their 10 speed but I think they have addressed that. The aluminum body would have its good points or so I think when it comes to corrosion but costs to repair tend to be a fair bit higher so both have their pluses for sure. I can't say I am all that thrilled about direct fuel injection though due to the complexity and potential increase in fuel dilution over port injection. I had not gotten to the stage of test driving the Ford and wouldn't have beat on it anyway to realize the power difference but that makes sense the Ford with its larger engine would have more power if that was high on the list of wants. Ford has gear ratio options available, something that GM just doesn't offer. Price wise at the time I priced them out with similar options or tried to, Ford locally wasn't into giving deals and the MSRP was higher on at least what I was comparing with the Ford so the dollars were swaying me to a Chev ( the main GM dealer was pulling an above MSRP stunt out of the blue so they were kicked out of the picture ). I'm sure either brand smashes up quite nicely with a head on with a moose or the insane amount of deer we have though !.