E-85 Availability

bigBP · February 28, 2008

Well, gasoline is up past $3.00/gallon again. I just don't get it here in Michigan. This is the backyard of GM products (who are now putting out quite a few flex fuel vehicles, with ford starting to follow suit) and our Governer is constantly taking about pushing the development of alternative fuels / energy for the "new" Michigan economy, but I still have to drive 20 miles to get to the closest station that carries E-85. What gives? I know we have a couple of ethanol plants now in Michigan, where in the heck is all of the production going?

Is it like this in other states, or is Michigan just "special"?

carneyman · February 28, 2008

Well, its not really that available because there isn't much of it. It takes a lot of corn (which is mostly whats being used right now in the US to make it), and there was already a tight market for corn (see: food) before E-85. Wait for people to realize there are better ways to get ethanol, then there will be more stations.

Texsrt4 · May 4, 2008

i dont get the fuel industry. brazil runs a vast majority of their vehicles on ethanol produced by sugarcane. sawgrass, a weed, produces significantly more ethanol per bushel than corn. however, we use a substaintal food source to get our fuel. why are we so retarded?

Zembonez · May 5, 2008

E85 is readily available here but the fuel mileage you get with it sucks so bad very few are using it. Since it is always exactly (only) 30 cents a gallon less, there is no reason to buy it.

Zembonez · May 5, 2008

why are we so retarded?

Because almost every one of us is an Exxon Mobil stockholder. If you have a 401K or insurance, you're instantly relying on oil industry money. It's so interwoven into everything we do or buy that it makes all of the decisions. No surprise that they don't "choose" alternative fuels.

carneyman · May 5, 2008

i dont get the fuel industry. brazil runs a vast majority of their vehicles on ethanol produced by sugarcane. sawgrass, a weed, produces significantly more ethanol per bushel than corn. however, we use a substaintal food source to get our fuel. why are we so retarded?

Well, we use corn because that is what we are already growing. They use sugarcane and saw grass because that is what they already had.

Texsrt4 · May 5, 2008

i question. the sugarcane probably. sawgrass grows significantly faster, cheaper, and easier to grow than corn, has more significantly more ethanol producing capability than corn, and it doesnt take away the food source that using corn does.

what is even funnier is that we, as tax payers, fund a percentage of farmers to keep their fields empty and not produce so that the price of corn/wheat/etc stays at market price (if all farmers were able to grow, food grains prices would plumit and farmers would be out of work). what we should be doing is convincing these farmers to grow sawgrass instead of nothing, and buy the grass from them at teh same market value that corn goes for. this would prevent corn farmers from becoming sawgrass farmers for higher profits, we continue to grow enough food crops, and we have a significantly higher ethanol yield

carneyman · May 5, 2008

i question. the sugarcane probably. sawgrass grows significantly faster, cheaper, and easier to grow than corn, has more significantly more ethanol producing capability than corn, and it doesnt take away the food source that using corn does.

what is even funnier is that we, as tax payers, fund a percentage of farmers to keep their fields empty and not produce so that the price of corn/wheat/etc stays at market price (if all farmers were able to grow, food grains prices would plumit and farmers would be out of work). what we should be doing is convincing these farmers to grow sawgrass instead of nothing, and buy the grass from them at teh same market value that corn goes for. this would prevent corn farmers from becoming sawgrass farmers for higher profits, we continue to grow enough food crops, and we have a significantly higher ethanol yield

I think its funny how that always comes up. At least you understand that if that didn't happen, farmers would be out of work and everyone would starve. Most people think that the money is just the farmers being lazy and wanting a free handout. And its not as simple as convincing the farmers to switch the land that "nothing" is grown on to something that they can make money off of. The government gets a little pissy when farmers are using more land than they want them to. The more land that is used for producing crops, there is more water used. This water doesn't always come from the sky. Most of it comes from wells, which, eventually, will run out. So more crops over more land=less water in the long run for food. Also, this also increases the risk of having another dust bowl, since most of the land not being used is considered dry land, and the only way it gets water is when it rains. Rain is a gamble. West Texas right now is really, really dry. My dad, a farmer, has already written off his dry land for this year. Even if it was to rain tonight, the dry land crops are too far gone. So, really, the best idea would be to scrap the food crops for ethanol and concentrate on using other plants that we don't already rely on and that don't require alot of water. Harvesting the methane from dairies/feedlots/hog farms would also be a good idea and is in practice in some areas.

Really, I just want a nuclear power plant I can put in my truck.

Nick The Great · May 5, 2008

Come visit a farmer in the corn belt. Tell them about how switchgrass or sugar cane is a better feedstock for ethanol protection. Then tell them they need to stop using their planters, plows, cultivators, sprayers, combines, augers, wagons, trucks, grain bins, silos, etc. THEN tell them they need to go out and buy all new equipment.

You'll either get laughed off their property or thrown off of it.

Right or wrong, the infrastructure is set up for grains.

Zembonez · May 5, 2008

Come visit a farmer in the corn belt. Tell them about how switchgrass or sugar cane is a better feedstock for ethanol protection. Then tell them they need to stop using their planters, plows, cultivators, sprayers, combines, augers, wagons, trucks, grain bins, silos, etc. THEN tell them they need to go out and buy all new equipment.

You'll either get laughed off their property or thrown off of it.

Right or wrong, the infrastructure is set up for grains.

Nick makes a good point. I don't think we'll ever produce enough E85 to make a real dent in the oil industry. It's gonna take new and better alternative fuel technology to do that.

Sir Dan · June 15, 2008

Well, gasoline is up past $3.00/gallon again. I just don't get it here in Michigan. This is the backyard of GM products (who are now putting out quite a few flex fuel vehicles, with ford starting to follow suit) and our Governer is constantly taking about pushing the development of alternative fuels / energy for the "new" Michigan economy, but I still have to drive 20 miles to get to the closest station that carries E-85. What gives? I know we have a couple of ethanol plants now in Michigan, where in the heck is all of the production going?

Is it like this in other states, or is Michigan just "special"?

Well, since ethanol cannot be pumped through the existing pipeline system as gasoline and diesel products, it has to be trucked in. And that puts lots of limitations on where it will get marketed. It also makes the price of ethanol much more volatile since they are using diesel trucks to deliver the stuff. Ethanol is the biggest government boondoggle yet...period. Nice try, but Americans are fed up with this hippie environmental lobbyist crap. Let's get with the program and build some modern, safe nuclear and clean burning coal fired power plants, drill our own oil off the coast and up in Alaska and tell the middle east to keep their overpriced oil. I'm sure china will buy up whatever we don't.

djdiablo · June 18, 2008

Well, gasoline is up past $3.00/gallon again. I just don't get it here in Michigan. This is the backyard of GM products (who are now putting out quite a few flex fuel vehicles, with ford starting to follow suit) and our Governer is constantly taking about pushing the development of alternative fuels / energy for the "new" Michigan economy, but I still have to drive 20 miles to get to the closest station that carries E-85. What gives? I know we have a couple of ethanol plants now in Michigan, where in the heck is all of the production going?

Is it like this in other states, or is Michigan just "special"?

You think you got it bad....California has only 4 stations available...I have to drive 35 miles one way if I want E85...but I still do do it! Conserv Fuels in Brentwood CA makes their E85 out of Beer and Liquor....it's f'n awesome. Now both my truck and I are drunks! Honestly though We need more ethanol out here, it can be made out of just about anything, and in Los Angeles we pay .90 cents less a gallon for E85 so I feel it's worth it! Gives us more ethanol!!!!!!

rvsahs · June 19, 2008

Well, gasoline is up past $3.00/gallon again. I just don't get it here in Michigan. This is the backyard of GM products (who are now putting out quite a few flex fuel vehicles, with ford starting to follow suit) and our Governer is constantly taking about pushing the development of alternative fuels / energy for the "new" Michigan economy, but I still have to drive 20 miles to get to the closest station that carries E-85. What gives? I know we have a couple of ethanol plants now in Michigan, where in the heck is all of the production going?

Is it like this in other states, or is Michigan just "special"?

Well, since ethanol cannot be pumped through the existing pipeline system as gasoline and diesel products, it has to be trucked in. And that puts lots of limitations on where it will get marketed. It also makes the price of ethanol much more volatile since they are using diesel trucks to deliver the stuff. Ethanol is the biggest government boondoggle yet...period. Nice try, but Americans are fed up with this hippie environmental lobbyist crap. Let's get with the program and build some modern, safe nuclear and clean burning coal fired power plants, drill our own oil off the coast and up in Alaska and tell the middle east to keep their overpriced oil. I'm sure china will buy up whatever we don't.

I've not read this entire thread so I apologize in advance for the sake of repeating previous comments, but ethanol is not the magic bullet that some think it is. Many of us were and continue to be, "Blinded by Science" (as Thomas Dolby put it back the 80s) that ethanol is a renewable resource that would allevate our energy dependence on foreign oil. Many articles on the subject, but an interesting read is found at:

http://www.farmgate.uiuc.edu/archive/2008/...if_you_wok.html

Due to the powerful farm lobbies (namely corn growers) and the multinational giant Archer-Daniels Midland, we are where we are today. Switchgrass is not the cure-all either. Yes, the raw product is cheaper to produce as it is a perennial crop instead of an annual, but the technology just isn't there yet to convert it into ethanol as easily or inexpensively as corn plus the storage/delivery problems to plant are challenging. You could convert the most of the cropland in OK to switchgrass and if every bit of it were grown for ethanol, it really wouldn't make much of a dent in our fuel reserves. And who would grow the lost production in hard red winter wheat instead?

Yes coal, nuclear, wind, solar energies are proven techologies that need to be expanded plus let's not forget some common sense conservation measures. Personally, I'm sick and tired of hugging those camel jocks in the mideast just for "reasons of national security".

TedH · June 26, 2008

i question. the sugarcane probably. sawgrass grows significantly faster, cheaper, and easier to grow than corn, has more significantly more ethanol producing capability than corn, and it doesnt take away the food source that using corn does.

what is even funnier is that we, as tax payers, fund a percentage of farmers to keep their fields empty and not produce so that the price of corn/wheat/etc stays at market price (if all farmers were able to grow, food grains prices would plumit and farmers would be out of work). what we should be doing is convincing these farmers to grow sawgrass instead of nothing, and buy the grass from them at teh same market value that corn goes for. this would prevent corn farmers from becoming sawgrass farmers for higher profits, we continue to grow enough food crops, and we have a significantly higher ethanol yield

I've read that with the increases in the prices for grain (corn, wheat, soy), more farmers are farming those empty fields; or renting them to other farmers that can afford to plant them. As a result, there are much FEWER dormant fields. Also, I see the gov't removing those subsidies to not farm land; especially with the price/demand for grains for both fuel and food. Good time to be farming in my opinion.