Never Change Your Oil?

[fbachman]

I know this has a lot of top-spin, but, here goes.

 

Recently, a German documentary program (a reputable one) did a series on, as they called it, "fleecing at the delaer" regarding oil and filter changes.

 

A German Entpreneur started a business that changes your oil once (it's not clear in the documentary, but my guess is he's using a full synthetic), has you change the filter and top off only, after that, with a LIFETIME WARRANTY.

 

Now, in Europe, oil changes that we pay $30-$40 for, go for about $170.

 

He is a former scientist at an (independent) european oil and lubricant standards testing lab.

 

The show interviewed dozens of folks that have run 100-200k kms (about 60,000 to 125,000 miles) without changing oil. Only filters and top-offs. Mercedes, BMWs, AUdis, most common German brands.

 

They even found some ski slopes whose snow-cats have been on that plan for 10s of thousands of hours and still run flawlessly.

 

He claims that the conventional/synthetic oils and lubricants developed today are so good, that oil changes have become largly superfluous, given that the filter is changed regularly, and the oil is topped off. He indicates that even conventional oils can go 100,000km before needing changing (62,000 miles)

 

They showed evidence that the car manufacturers (in Europe), in conjunction with their dealer networks, maintain this ruse because of the buisness they get doing oil and filter changes for pennies, and charging an arm-and-a-leg. In fact, one independent mechanic, on hidden camera, admitted that without the oil and filter changes, they'd likely go under.

 

Made me wonder a little bit.

 

My Mom lives in Germany and has an Audi. The FACTORY recommends oil changes at 11,500km (a little over 7000mi). The same Audi in the US has the oil change interval lowered significantly.

 

I'm working on translating pieces of the transcript --- but I find this interesting.

 

I'll be the first to admit, up front, that I fell awful if I don't change mine at least every 3-4000 miles.

 

Makes me think a little.

 

http://frontal21.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/14/0,...7142766,00.html

[svensk]

After switching to amsoil I'm trying out changing the filter and topping off only at 6-7K miles. I drive 75 miles a day (highway) so it makes sense for me.

[2000DV4.8]

I don't know about German cars, but when I pull the filter off my truck, a crapload of oil comes pouring out. In which case, "topping off" would still be changing 1-2 quarts of oil. I'm thinking if you're replacing about a third of the oil every time you change the filter, the oil will still stay reasonably clean, so you're not really "never changing your oil".

 

I just woke up though, so my logic could be completely off.

[dlstewart01]

Some issues with this:

 

All oil gets dirty, dino as well as synthetic.

 

The additives gets depleted after a few thousand miles.

 

some oil thin out while others thicken up after extended use.

 

The big one is---gasket leaks, anti-freeze, water in the oil. Most people will not know it till its too late, blown engine. At least changing oil regulary gets rid of the contaminants and gets fresh oil back in.

 

Especially if you do in-town driving, short trips ect. The engine doesn't stay hot long enougt to burn off contamiants, and condensation.

 

Most people who do extended oil changes use Blackstone labs to analize the oil to see the amount of contamiants, how high are the ware metals and if anti-freeze is present. Costs 22 bucks for piece of mind.

 

Oil changes are fairly cheap if you do your own, and just good insurance to a looooong and happy engine life. WHY would soneone compromise that to save a few bucks?????

 

Have a very pleasent day,

 

Don

[fbachman]

I don't know about German cars, but when I pull the filter off my truck, a crapload of oil comes pouring out. In which case, "topping off" would still be changing 1-2 quarts of oil. I'm thinking if you're replacing about a third of the oil every time you change the filter, the oil will still stay reasonably clean, so you're not really "never changing your oil".

 

I just woke up though, so my logic could be completely off.

 

 

That's a good point. I am not sure about european cars either, but when changing oil on my bike, i lose very little oil when I remove the filter. As I have gotten a little more routined doing so, I can swap the filter quickly and lose ver little. Of course, on a bike, the filters are much smaller.

[dlstewart01]

I don't know about German cars, but when I pull the filter off my truck, a crapload of oil comes pouring out. In which case, "topping off" would still be changing 1-2 quarts of oil. I'm thinking if you're replacing about a third of the oil every time you change the filter, the oil will still stay reasonably clean, so you're not really "never changing your oil".

 

I just woke up though, so my logic could be completely off.

 

 

That's a good point. I am not sure about european cars either, but when changing oil on my bike, i lose very little oil when I remove the filter. As I have gotten a little more routined doing so, I can swap the filter quickly and lose ver little. Of course, on a bike, the filters are much smaller.

 

 

AC-46 filter holds at most 1/2 quart (really its about 1/3 quart) and what little oil there is behind the filter that runs out.

 

Don

[ChrisNJ]

you still have to change the filter. so while your there, whats the big deal about changing out 4-5 quarts.

I know of one car that a friend had, a gm v6 in an early 90's car. it ate a piston at around 90K, he never changed the oil or filter, just added. not bad. i bet you could go 20-30K easy before changing out though, but who's gonna risk it for a $20-30 oil change on a $3-4K engine changeout risk?

[fbachman]

you still have to change the filter. so while your there, whats the big deal about changing out 4-5 quarts.

I know of one car that a friend had, a gm v6 in an early 90's car. it ate a piston at around 90K, he never changed the oil or filter, just added. not bad. i bet you could go 20-30K easy before changing out though, but who's gonna risk it for a $20-30 oil change on a $3-4K engine changeout risk?

 

Well, as indicated, we have the lluxury over here of paying $30-$40 bucks for it, less if done ourselves.

 

In Europe, oil changes run 130-150 Euros, approx $170.

 

I'll bet we'd look a little closer too for $170.

 

I know I would be doing it myself.

[Zembonez]

I also think the idea is not based on sound science. With my new Sierra, I'm comfy changing mine every 5K using Mobil1 and a PF48. It costs about 30 bucks. Seems way better than possibly buying a new engine at 50, 60 or even 100K to me.

[BigJayDogg3]

I can get the translation, but I have to do it in pieces, so bear with me. Also, for some reason, some words didn't translate.

 

How lubricated

 

 

 

The business with the Ölwechseln

 

 

 

Auto manufacturers recommend regular Ölwechseln and most drivers follow, can on average once a year the oil exchange. This was unnecessary, experts say: With modern motor oils can easily drive 100,000 km.

 

The route from Berlin to South Tyrol Pizzini Walter knows by heart, almost weekly runs a construction company manager of the long route, 1800 km out and back. Every time when the engine of its E-Class starts, exhorted it to the on-board computer: "Workshop / Service overdue" - he aims to oil change, his last is 87,000 kilometers. But Pizzini ignored the warning because he uses a motor oil, the car an entire lifetime. And, indeed: Pizzinis Mercedes runs and runs and runs. Ten years guaranteed Löchter Andreas, the engine "Lifetime". And to its customers fear Kolbenfresser and engine damage, he is assured by the Alliance.

 

Even Helmuth Kohnen considers the requests from the automobile industry, all 15,000 to 30,000 kilometers to change the engine oil, now considered superfluous. His Range Rover runs for seven years with the same oil, 155,000 km, he has in this time. And motorcycle dealers Gerd Schaub from Bad Hersfeld its controls Fiat Ducato has been ten years without oil, 192,000 km since it is driven. Both cars seems to lack of maintenance supposedly nothing to see. Despite the warnings, the engines no damage.

 

Modern engine oils

Experts like Peter Weismann of "Wear check", the largest independent Ölprüflabor in Germany, is not surprised. Modern engine oils have only 100,000 kilometers to be replaced, says Weismann. But garages would be finding deprive their clients often. Many were from the oil industry loans, to lifts or other equipment used to finance. In return for the loan if they had committed themselves to certain quantities of oil to decrease.

 

All done.

[omegafiler]

I've used Amsoil synthetic with previous vehicles and I'd go for the "extended oil change" period... but I still changed it less than every year as recommended by Amsoil. They were all low mileage vehicles as well. But to never change the oil, they'd have to do a lot more tests to prove the oil would maintain the same lubrication/protection and that the filter was changed out. I know even after a year of changing the Amsoil it looked and felt just as good as the new stuff... but that's not exactly a scientific study.

 

Here is what it says on the Amsoil site.

 

Service Life

AMSOIL Signature Series 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil is recommended for extended drain intervals in unmodified(1), mechanically sound(2) gasoline fueled vehicles as follows:

 

• Normal Service(3) – Up to 35,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first.

• Severe Service(4) – Up to 17,500 miles or one year, whichever comes first.

• Replace AMSOIL Ea oil filter at the time of oil change up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first (other brands at standard OEM* intervals).

• In all non-gasoline fueled vehicle applications, extend the oil change interval according to oil analysis or follow the OEM* drain interval.

 

*OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer

 

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/sso.aspx

[Black02Silverado]

One can go longer than the average 5k oil change. The main thing is type of driving, city versus highway and condition of your vehicles engine. I have been able to go basically a year on average 15k miles on one oil and filter change with no issues. Now I did this slowly and with the added benefit of having my oil analyzed so that I could see exactly what is happening with my oil. Turns out my style of driving and the condition of my engine, 2002 5.3 Silverado, all allowed me to go that long on my oil changes and the oil was still within specifications.

 

I know that the VW dealer states to change the oil on the new TDI diesel's at every 10k miles. A guy that worked with me had one and that is what he did and the dealer changed his oil for him. He drove 140 miles a day back and forth to work. He put over 60k on the TDI with no problems. I always wanted to run a sample of his oil but as usual he never reminded me when he was getting it changed, but he did show me the oil change receipts and it was at every 10k.

 

I don't see it happening for everyone. Just wouldn't work due to different driving styles. Like my mother-in-law, she had only 3k on her Mark VII in 18 months, she didn't feel the need to change it since it was so little miles, well I had a sample read and the oil was trashed, no TBN left and had high acids and wear metals as well as fuel dilution. Basically her car never got up to operating temp for the short distance that she drove it every day or so.

 

It is possible even with conventional oil, just need to have you oil tested to see if it can work for your style of driving and vehicle's condition.

[Zembonez]

EVERY single scientific study I have ever seen indicated that longer oil change intervals offer exactly ZERO danger to the engine. The OLM on my Sierra is on pace to indicate a "needed" first oil change at 10,000 miles (although I have already changed the oil... I am just seeing when it indicates). Studies indicating that no additional wear occurs at 15K using conventional oils are available everywhere. Almost every major fleet company has conducted their own. Cities across the country have adopted a 10,000 mile interval for their vehicles. The argument that damage is somehow being done to the engine if you go by the OLM is simply not valid.

 

I still change my oil every 5,000 miles... just for peace of mind. I like it and my feeble brain can remember it. All I have to do is watch for 5K 10K 15K etc...

[dlstewart01]

Just something to think about. Go beyond what the manufacturer recommends while in warranty and have an oil related engine failure and see who pays for it.

 

Don

[Guest Riggs]

ive never changed my oil and it has 126,000 miles........