Grumpy Bears 2015 Silverado 2WD

Grumpy Bear · April 15, 2019

GM submitted a paper to the SAE which was published and showed a direct correlation between particle contamination and engine wear. Read here: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter

It's what the study says. But not what you hear from whom ever is selling whatever. Lubeguard for example states in their FAQ area the 'number' to hit is sub 3 um. They offer 3 um at a Beta of 75 or absolute according to SAE standards. Frantz claims 5 um capable without a Beta reference. Ditto RRR. K & P holds 35 um, "and 'yes will catch 5 um as well' sort of like you should be ashamed to ask. Well I'm not and I do ask. I bough the K & P for many purposes. One of which was making space for a sandwich plate. Another was lower backpressure, quicker pressure rise. I like the idea that 35 um is a true absolute and not a relative value with a lot of if's, maybe's and but's attached. I can bypass finer so am unconcerned with it's low end performance.

Who has my attention is AMSOIL. 2 um at a Beta of 75. They are willing to state a number and a reference point and even if that number were 5 um I would know the facts and not just some relative marketing speak. Truth not to my exact liking is preferred to lies and pie in the sky. And as it happens I find 2 um at this reference agreeable. I have our resident AMSOIL guy on it.

Grumpy Bear · April 16, 2019

Omeprazole, Zantac. People take these drugs to cure acid reflux from eating a diet or living a lifestyle that aggravates acid production. They could just give up those foods that hurt them and destress, but they don't and they won't. We are kind of like that about allot of things....like lubrication. Except with lubrication we also tend to deny a fact if it doesn't suit or preference.

Heat is a great example. True, Synthetics will tolerate more sensible heat than mineral oils. Sometimes by a lot. Thing is they respond in the same way to that heat. Resistance to flow decreases. A viscosity drop.

I hand generated this table from data obtained from Donaldson for straight weight oils. It wouldn't copy from the PDF in was in. Look at the 40 C viscosity for 20W. 68 cSt. In a 0W20 that number is roughly 48 cSt. Below that point the differenced are greatly different. That's info to stop backlash for the next statement. Above 70 C (158 F), just above the EP additive heat activation point there isn't a nickels worth of difference in viscosities between straight weights and multi weights.

Synlube I believe generated this graph from 0W30. So take a second and look those over.

Now think bearing temperatures run 75 F hotter than the sump temperature. Ring land temperature of the oil runs in a gas motor in the 300F range under average load . Funny how that is the same temperature as the test temperature for the HSTS test, right? Add this thought. Milk at room temperature has a viscosity of 3 centipoise and as milk has a density a hair over 1 the cSt viscosity is just under 3 cSt. About the same as Red Line 0W20 at 302 F. Beat like a pup and you can push it to near 400 F.

Oil in that space of about 3 to 10 um between the ring and wall has the consistency of milk. Good to know that film strength isn't tied DIRECTLY to viscosity, right? At these temperatures even moderate reductions in sensible heat have a large impact percentage wise on viscosity. That's a long way around to say that even if the chemistry of the lubricant can tolerate the heat from the point of thermal oxidation it's viscosity is still subject to the laws of nature. Viscosity is huge in the formation of hydrodynamic film thickness every rotating part in the motor depends on to prevent contact. But we have Zantac, right? ZZDP?

1.) I use the best oil I can afford to lay my hands on.

2.) I will be mindful of the heat viscosity relationship.

3.) I keep it as cool as possible but warm enough to drive out moisture and activate heat sensitive additives.

4.) I will filter it as well as products, services and truthful information allows

5.) I will treat it like I don't have access to any of the above.

If I were only going to be allowed one truck for a life time, this is how I see it's services. It likely is.

Grumpy Bear · April 20, 2019

Turning Point

Care package came from AMSOIL today. Thank you Nick!

I've been presenting this piece meal fashion. It's my process. Sorry about that. There are five parts to this project.

1.) Oil Quality

2.) Oil Cooling

3.) Oil Cleanliness

4.) Oil Change Intervals

5.) Oil Stress

There is but one goal. Knowledge. Longevity is the vehicle. Cost is NOT a consideration...within reason. But what is reasonable?

Most of my life I've had little issues getting 200K plus from anything with four wheels on nothing more than 5 to 7.5K OCI, good oil and name brand filters. It's my nature not to stress oil very much. My driving style gets moisture out and holds shear and heat in check. I would have been happy with that for the rest of my life if it hadn't been for the last few years of the insane price increases of vehicles coupled with a severe dumbing down of basic quality and mandated over complication and compliance. Nutshell? Greed is getting too greedy. I can by allot of oil and filtration for $50K and as I have been able to skip buying every other vehicle I thought why not every third or maybe even fourth. I needed a new mind set. Less follow the leader.

I think I have one and I'll lay it out.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Grumpy Bear
plura

Doublebase · April 20, 2019

Nice thread, read most of it on flight to (and from) Vegas...14 hours...picking away at it little by little here and there. Kept the incredibly long flight a little more interesting.

I like the passion of trying to achieve a level of vehicle reliability and longevity through maintenance and ppersonal preferred methods, I don't agree with all of it but I appreciate and admire it.

The latest post - getting a vehicle to last and perhaps saving money by not having to purchase the "next" vehicle within third or even fourth cycle - is something I've done before and it requires maintenance and good driving habits (all of which are obviously on display here). You really do save a small fortune keeping a vehicle super long term, and maintaining it so it can get to that 250,000-350,000 mark. Along the way you will have to make a rather large investment into maintenance, the key is deciding what is that "point" and where is that "line" to maintain a vehicle for longevity and enjoyment (excellent condition). I probably differ a great deal in that regard to the OP, but I agree to attempt it is fun in some sort of weird way, and an excellent way to save maybe $50k-$70k longterm with today's vehicle costs.

So keep up the good work, Grumpy, inspirational thread! Truly a one of a kind trip into vehicle maintenance, modification and data. I will check in fequently.

Personally I have taken a vehicle to 287,000 miles before selling it...probably saving myself $50,000 in the process. That allowed me to pay off my house sooner, save for another vehicle etc. I think a real key is selecting the "right" vehicle for the job. And that's tough because you can't go on vehicle reputation always for that task...vehicles can be cyclical in their reputation for reliability...a few years of greatness and then the manufacturer changes the fuel delivery system or transmission specs and manufacturer. It's tough. Hopefully I can get my 2018 Silverado to 300,000 and beyond, not sure yet, there are some things I'm leery of, but that might make it even more of a challenge and interesting.

AtlasFBG2 · April 21, 2019

On 4/4/2019 at 2:36 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

   ACDelco Red Line    QSUD    Rotella    Super Syn MPT-30K AMSOIL

Vis 40 C 61.2    71 66.65    66.4 63.15 73.2    59.7

Vis 100 C 10.4    11.9 11.6 11.7 11.2 11.8    10.7

VI    160    166    170 175    158 162    Higher is better

HTHS    3.7    3.9 3.11    Higher is better

NOACK 6%    <13% 5.4%    6.7%    Lower is better

ACDelco is an Exxon/Mobil product based on Mobil 1 5W30.

That the case then ACDelco is a Group III hydrocracked oil just like Quaker State. Polarity would by default be middle of the road. I can find no information of Rotellas base oil. ACDelco is better than I imagined it would be.

Red Line is a PAO/POE blend. PAO is very non-polar thus a pretty high percentage of POE is added to improve polarity which improves wetting. Enough to be more polar than mineral oil. I actually know the percentage but am not at liberty to say. Let's just say I still know some people in refining at Phillips.

Tossed SuperSyn, AMSOIL and MPT-30K in for kicks.

I don't know what this information will tell you but it's what I could find.

0W20

Synlube Red Line QSUD AMSOIL

40    C vis    40.8 48 44.61    47.1

100 C vis 9.0 9.1 8.3    8.8

VI    210    172 165    169

HTHS    2.7    2.9    2.67

NOACK    9 8.5

Are those all 5w30 that are listed at top?

Here is some specs to compare on new oil samples. These are all 5w30 tested by the same lab.

Royal Purple AC Delco Mobil 1

Mobil 1 Supertech AC Delco Quaker State UD Amsoil Sig Series 0w20 0w20 0w20

TBN 9.7 8.0 8.03 8.5 12.8 9.07 8.05 9.53

Vis @ 100 11.0 10.9 11.1 10.1 10.7 8.6 8.51 8.8

Vis@40 62.4 62.0 64.95 55.3 60.5 45.27 44.59 45.97

Vis Index 170 168 164 172 171 171 171 174

Vis@-30 3937 4576 4884 4184 3398 5949 5642 4182

Vol loss 1 hr 10.1 11.3 7.9 8.8 7.6 10.9 12.0 10.7

Calcium 1161 2367 2224 2411 3619 1203 2158 1120

Magnesium 772 9 10 8 19 847 9 789

Phosph 689 706 803 687 701 769 743 709

Zinc 821 838 863 847 809 831 824 730

Moly 85 1 83 58 153 69 81 88

Barium <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Boron 108 198 248 5 236 235 247 102

Silicon 8 6 4 6 7 8 3 6

Potass 5 5 <5 <5 <5 <5 <5 <5

Manganese <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Titanium <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 35 <1 <1

Copper <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Sodium <5 <5 6 <5 5 <5 7 <5

Vandium <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Silver <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Aluminum 2 2 2 2 4 <1 <1 2

Chromium <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Iron <1 <1 1 <1 1 2 <1 <1

Nickel <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Lead <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Antimony <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Tin <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1 <1

Edited April 21, 2019 by AtlasFBG2

KARNUT · April 21, 2019

My brother in law has owned 5 or 6 vehicles in the over 40 years I’ve known him. His first 69 firebird he still has it. His second for 8 years a 65 Chevy p/u got him through 6 years college and 2 years working. A couple suburbans and a pickup. He buys used, except the pickup and drives them 300K miles. He just bought one with cylinder deactivation. He goes by the manual, nothing special. They always looks dirty but not abuse. He’s a car enthusiast ( the 69 firebird) but the daily’s are tools. Only one broke on him a rear end went out. He’s one of the few I can say gets his money’s worth. Nothing but GMs for him.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Grumpy Bear · April 21, 2019

2 hours ago, AtlasFBG2 said:

Are those all 5w30 that are listed at top?

Yes sir.

1 hour ago, KARNUT said:

My brother in law has owned 5 or 6 vehicles in the over 40 years I’ve known him. His first 69 firebird he still has it. His second for 8 years a 65 Chevy p/u got him through 6 years college and 2 years working. A couple suburbans and a pickup. He buys used, except the pickup and drives them 300K miles. He just bought one with cylinder deactivation. He goes by the manual, nothing special. They always looks dirty but not abuse. He’s a car enthusiast ( the 69 firebird) but the daily’s are tools. Only one broke on him a rear end went out. He’s one of the few I can say gets his money’s worth. Nothing but GMs for him.

Dad gets 300K falling off a log. 2500 OCI and mineral oil. Last ten years or so he's traded horses. Syntech and pushing 15K without UOA and so far....getting away with it. Of course he's doing this experiment on my brother-in-laws Olds.

12 hours ago, Doublebase said:

Nice thread, read most of it on flight to (and from) Vegas...14 hours...picking away at it little by little here and there. Kept the incredibly long flight a little more interesting.

I like the passion of trying to achieve a level of vehicle reliability and longevity through maintenance and ppersonal preferred methods, I don't agree with all of it but I appreciate and admire it.

The latest post - getting a vehicle to last and perhaps saving money by not having to purchase the "next" vehicle within third or even fourth cycle - is something I've done before and it requires maintenance and good driving habits (all of which are obviously on display here). You really do save a small fortune keeping a vehicle super long term, and maintaining it so it can get to that 250,000-350,000 mark. Along the way you will have to make a rather large investment into maintenance, the key is deciding what is that "point" and where is that "line" to maintain a vehicle for longevity and enjoyment (excellent condition). I probably differ a great deal in that regard to the OP, but I agree to attempt it is fun in some sort of weird way, and an excellent way to save maybe $50k-$70k longterm with today's vehicle costs.

So keep up the good work, Grumpy, inspirational thread! Truly a one of a kind trip into vehicle maintenance, modification and data. I will check in fequently.

Personally I have taken a vehicle to 287,000 miles before selling it...probably saving myself $50,000 in the process. That allowed me to pay off my house sooner, save for another vehicle etc. I think a real key is selecting the "right" vehicle for the job. And that's tough because you can't go on vehicle reputation always for that task...vehicles can be cyclical in their reputation for reliability...a few years of greatness and then the manufacturer changes the fuel delivery system or transmission specs and manufacturer. It's tough. Hopefully I can get my 2018 Silverado to 300,000 and beyond, not sure yet, there are some things I'm leery of, but that might make it even more of a challenge and interesting.

An adult, well written and refreshing perspective. Thanks for sharing it. Glad you enjoyed it.

I've been a bit scattered recently. Four funerals in ten days. I'm about tapped out so slow on the trigger.

KARNUT · April 21, 2019

An adult, well written and refreshing perspective. Thanks for sharing it. Glad you enjoyed it.

I've been a bit scattered recently. Four funerals in ten days. I'm about tapped out so slow on the trigger.

I was going to go thumbs up on the post until I came to the funeral part. Sorry to read that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doublebase · April 21, 2019

Sorry to hear about your loss...four in ten days? Wow that’s terrible.

Grumpy Bear · April 22, 2019

Thanks for the kindnesses boys. I appreciate that. Sort of a hazard of my age me thinks.

Grumpy Bear · April 22, 2019

"My uncle Wilber once.....". It's how the rebuttal starts after you supply hard evidence to the contrary. Leaves one with a feeling the wheels just fell off the rationality buss you are on and there isn't a thing you can do about it.

I was watching this YouTube video where a fellow is doing a home brewed NOACK test. I wondered if anyone but myself happened to notice what he was not talking about that was several times more important than the actual results his test produced. And what was that?

The oil darkened. In a covered container. That isn't soot or suspended dirt. That is thermal oxidation. Technically, it's thermal cracking. A process used in refining to break apart a hydrocarbon to make smaller hydrocarbons. Natural Gas is thermal cracked to make ethylene and ethylene and is synthesized into, a few steps later, PAO's or Polyethylene plastics or Polyethylene Glycol or...…. Problem is the cracking going on in the crankcase isn't do so in an orderly manor to make anything good. The most damaging thing unchecked thermal degradation does in a motor is destroy polarity. Surface tension. It's ability to 'wet' a metal. To hold an additive. To hold solids. This is the basis of lubrication is it not?

This process doesn't happen above some magic temperature the oil is designed to 'handle' although it does have an initiation temperature. It's rate of progress doubles incrementally with increases in temperature. From Machinery Lubrication concerning mineral oils:

"the rate of oxidation doubles for every 10°C (18°F) rise in temperature above 75°C (165°F)"

"Yes but", Your going to say about your favorite synthetic, and argue 'modern oils can handle more heat' and they in fact can. What they are not; is impervious to the process of thermal breakdown. The initiation temperature is indeed raised but NOT above your normal operating temperature. The proof is right there in the color on your dipstick. Your UOA can look fine. Vis is in range and TBN is okay. None of that is an indicator of polarity. IFT (interfacial tension) is that indicator. I've never seen this test done by anyone who does analysis for the public. We use to run it for the 180,000 hp. turbines in an Ethylene plant.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/376/surface-tension-test

There are points in a motor where temperatures greatly exceed the point of thermal breakdown for any popular lubricant. Compressive heating of oil in the roller to cam lobe interface an example. It's hot, it's quick and over time, miles, load gets the job done no matter how well you choose, cool, filter or analyze your favorite fluids.

That doesn't mean ignore them because there is noting you can do to stop it. It means be about it like you mean it. Then change your oil.

Grumpy Bear · April 23, 2019

Petroleum Oil Thermal Oxidation Chart.

At 212 F the rate of decay is already 6X faster than at 165 F; the initiation temperature. By 250 F it's over 30X faster. It's why track day cars change oil at the end of each outing. It's why I believe 235 F, a really easy number to hit with a stock motor on a hot day with a 207F water thermostat and a fluid to fluid oil exchanger is the very definition of 'stupid'. OLM's that permit 7.5K changes modifies this thought to 'Really Stupid" That's my story and I'm stick' n to it. Believe other as you wish. This isn't a fight. It's an opinion.

Sugar Bears Terrain has started to use some oil. About a quart in 5K and it has almost 90K on the clock. QSUD and 5K OCI's. By 4K the oil is getting pretty dark. A good deal darker than Peppers oil at that same interval. Besides the fact we use different oils she is that person who gives not a single thought to longevity. Her Toyota did this same thing at about the same mileage on Pennzoil Platinum. I've told this story before I believe but it bears repeating.

She's headed to Memphis from Fort Wayne on a day with a SW wind steady over 45 mph gusting to 55/60 and I get a call from her all worried. She says, and I not knowing the conditions of the drive from my chair at home, "Somethings wrong Grumpy. I've got my foot flat on the floor and it can't hold 80 mph!!!" 2.4 liter motor pushing a bread box into a cyclone wind...hum....what could that be?

She's not being cute, this is just who she is. I've explained that it's really hard on such a small motor's oil to push it like that and it bounces off unnoticed. She's not untypical. By my observations of the road she's actually pretty tame. Dad made mention on our last visit that he believes the fastest vehicles on the road today are not Corvettes and Camaros but Suburban's and Silverado's. I think he's dead on the money.

While the extra hydrogen processing of QSUD that closes the ends of each molecule certainly help move this graph to the right a few degrees it is evidently not up to the loads she can place on it. And as it is still a mineral oil it will as it evaporates leave behind varnish and gums. Something POE's and PAO's will not do. Sadly once it starts there is little that can be done to reverse it.

Anyway, story time over with....I'm a belt and suspenders sort of guy. Might even add a bit of rope and duct tape taking me back to the Turning Point post. Use better oil than you need. Keep it cooler than you have to. Filter it well and stress it little then change it.

OCI is the only area I'm still on the fence about. I think that is going to be a function of how much truth I can be assured of and so far that isn't much. So until I'm comfortable I will continue to change it more often than the median user.

Grumpy Bear · April 26, 2019

I've had the AMSOIL bypass filter, remote mount and valve cover barb for awhile. Then paused to ponder the supply source. As I would like to add an actual pressure and temperature gauge I've opted for a filter spacer plate with taps. Glow Shift had one I ordered minutes ago that looks promising. I now need to fab a mount. I think I'd like to locate it in the second battery tray area. I'll add a sample tap in that location as well; pre-filter, for UOA's.

Over the last 3236 miles she's burned 115.48 gallons = 28.02 mpg.

The last 1044 miles, since the K & P filter install she used 35.731 gallons = 29.22 mpg.

Takes about 1 hp./1 psi to drive an oil pump. Normal pump lay outs that's a 'meh'. But the Gen V motors regulate oil pressure after the filter, not before as in the past. In this set up 1 psi reduction in filter DP is a direct one horsepower reduction in friction. Observation however says it is something less with the two stage set up. My horsepower meter says about a 3 hp. reduction at 60 mph. Hot idle power is much easier to see. Old 8/9 hp, new 6 hp. There is only a 3 psi difference between idle and 55 mph oil pressure so I think I'm in the ballpark.

Today I drove down to Peoria to Hoerr Racing to pick up fluids and the 360 mile round trip calculated 30.4 MPG driving 60 mph all Interstate. That's a bit quicker than my usual pace but I was experimenting. Day started 58 F and ended 75 F. Light N wind. Under 5 mph. Pretty day. This pace yields a slightly higher oil temperature and a few degrees cooler transmission temperature. 206 F oil, 148 F Transmission.

0W30 is what I chose this time. At least until I can get the oil temperatures below 200 F on the hotter days and at 60-65 mph. I'm right up against my self imposed limits so I'll create a bit of cushion.

This part of the project is going painfully slow. But with good results.

Grumpy Bear · April 29, 2019

Glow Shift parts came. One tap for the bypass system. One for temperature and one for pressure. I need to fab a bracket for the bypass filter mount. Source some gauges and a panel mount. Getting there.