Removing Oil Filter

Thomcat · May 4, 2017

Here's the actual math for a modern LS v8, which is what these pickup use. The reasonable expected life of these engines is ~300k miles BTW. You're cherry picking data and facts again.(please stop doing that) This is math that was done in response to a 3k mile OC guy on a thread last year.

Pay close attention to the last paragraph;

All these modern GM v8 engines have a realistic life expected span of at least 300 k miles when used normally. That's 100 oil changes for you high frequency guys. At $40 a pop for good full synthetic, that's $4000 in oil changes. Probably a lot more for you guys paying expensive dealers to do it for you; maybe as much as $6000, or more over the 300k life of the vehicle. This doesn't include all the extra personal time you have to invest in this.
Say an hour per change - 100 hours @ how much per hour do, or did you earn?

Now compare that to the vehicle done every 8000 miles;

Total oil changes 37.5

Total cost at $40 each is $1500, or $2250 @ $60 plus only 37.5 hours of your personal time.

The 3000 mile guy has now overspent between $2500 and $3750. Plus 62.5 hours of personal time @ ?$/Hr. That's a replacement engine right there.

Jus' sayin. The math doesn't lie.

To those who might argue that they never keep a vehicle that long, it doesn't matter. The math rolls over into every vehicle you own & keeps adding up. Over a lifetime of driving, many folks are probably spending as much as $10,000 or $15,000 on un necessary oil changes. Great for the company's that facilitate that, but no benefit to the consumer.

Just saying.....This new Math wouldn't add up even on the planet Mars. I suggest applying at least 3 years of Physics and Calculus not Math to condition one into including all known factors into the equation and substituting fact based variables for those which are not.

Here are just a few variables assumed as constants in the calculation:

1. Assumes constant 300K and/or alternatively a cumulative lifetime - really, not even on Mars - there are some of us who never get past the 36/3 yr. utilizing free dealer changes - variable

2. Assumes constant 3K accelerated changes, 5K differential against OLM - variable

3 Assumes constant OLM mandated 8K changes - variable

4. Assumes vehicle lifetime as distance, failing to include Julian time related concepts, e.g. over the unspecified (50 yrs.?) years the variable costs of oil, capacity of the oil sumps over multiple generations of engines - variable

5. Assumes the value for personal time as a negative cost rather than a positive one, i.e. one who does his own 3K change in 1/2 hr. earns positive credit in time against time expended driving to and waiting at the dealer for the service on an OLM change. - variable

6. Assumes a constant rate for personal labor - variable over the Julian dates lifetime - jobs, positions, retirement, public assistance, etc. - variable

7. Assumes a negative cost for personal (time expenditure) labor - vs. net positive earnings changing your own oil vs. zero dozing in the boat waiting for a fish to bite, or net negative blowing $50. worth of ammo at the range. - variable

Definitely not a case for simple Math, more variables than constants integrated over time. Any sense of accuracy requires application of Calculus and maxima-minima theory in Linear Algebra, all constants and variables must be identified and plausible values assigned to the latter. Once a defining equation is developed it requires Differentiation and Integration over a specified period of time to make any sense of an actual cost differential.

And the whole damned concept of personal preference for oil change frequency is meaningless because its' basis is necessity over personal satisfaction. Back in the 70s had to revive a '62 Nova junker as a work vehicle ....top and bottom end work on the old 194, plus clutch, Muncie tranny, U joints, brakes and every other moving part on it. Did it because I had to do it......now, any automotive screwing around I do is because I want to do it. Today one opens the hood and can't see the ground for all the crap in it, let alone diagnose half the problems without proprietary dealer equipment AND have a dealer with the proper equipment and properly trained mechanics who know how to use it for a quick one visit fix.

Retirement is great, you do what you want when you want to do it - I don't change oil because I have to, I do it because I want to....in fact I enjoy it.......and you can't fit that into any time or cost related concept. Gives a sense of accomplishment plus a chance for a look-see a baby's underbelly to see if there's something else that requires screwing around with. Could be psychological, but baby always seems smoother and peppier on fresh formula without burping.

Bottom line is change your oil when you feel comfortable with the change.

Nanotech Environmental · May 5, 2017

Just saying.....This new Math wouldn't add up even on the planet Mars. I suggest applying at least 3 years of Physics and Calculus not Math to condition one into including all known factors into the equation and substituting fact based variables for those which are not.

Here are just a few variables assumed as constants in the calculation:

1. Assumes constant 300K and/or alternatively a cumulative lifetime - really, not even on Mars - there are some of us who never get past the 36/3 yr. utilizing free dealer changes - variable

2. Assumes constant 3K accelerated changes, 5K differential against OLM - variable

3 Assumes constant OLM mandated 8K changes - variable

4. Assumes vehicle lifetime as distance, failing to include Julian time related concepts, e.g. over the unspecified (50 yrs.?) years the variable costs of oil, capacity of the oil sumps over multiple generations of engines - variable

5. Assumes the value for personal time as a negative cost rather than a positive one, i.e. one who does his own 3K change in 1/2 hr. earns positive credit in time against time expended driving to and waiting at the dealer for the service on an OLM change. - variable

6. Assumes a constant rate for personal labor - variable over the Julian dates lifetime - jobs, positions, retirement, public assistance, etc. - variable

7. Assumes a negative cost for personal (time expenditure) labor - vs. net positive earnings changing your own oil vs. zero dozing in the boat waiting for a fish to bite, or net negative blowing $50. worth of ammo at the range. - variable

Definitely not a case for simple Math, more variables than constants integrated over time. Any sense of accuracy requires application of Calculus and maxima-minima theory in Linear Algebra, all constants and variables must be identified and plausible values assigned to the latter. Once a defining equation is developed it requires Differentiation and Integration over a specified period of time to make any sense of an actual cost differential.

And the whole damned concept of personal preference for oil change frequency is meaningless because its' basis is necessity over personal satisfaction. Back in the 70s had to revive a '62 Nova junker as a work vehicle ....top and bottom end work on the old 194, plus clutch, Muncie tranny, U joints, brakes and every other moving part on it. Did it because I had to do it......now, any automotive screwing around I do is because I want to do it. Today one opens the hood and can't see the ground for all the crap in it, let alone diagnose half the problems without proprietary dealer equipment AND have a dealer with the proper equipment and properly trained mechanics who know how to use it for a quick one visit fix.

Retirement is great, you do what you want when you want to do it - I don't change oil because I have to, I do it because I want to....in fact I enjoy it.......and you can't fit that into any time or cost related concept. Gives a sense of accomplishment plus a chance for a look-see a baby's underbelly to see if there's something else that requires screwing around with. Could be psychological, but baby always seems smoother and peppier on fresh formula without burping.

Bottom line is change your oil when you feel comfortable with the change.

Nothing wrong with the math I used, as it does a simple job of illustrating a basic point... A point which you seem to have missed btw.........All you're doing is adding un-necessary complexity- ie. rube goldberging a simple thing. Waste money if you choose to, just understand that it is based on false logic.

PS. a couple of your 'math points', if used correctly, would further prove and reinforce my point, especially when inflation is factored in.

Eddie 70 · May 5, 2017

You guys are funny. Beejay and Thomcat. The OP didn't ask for any of that stuff you guys are enjoying. He just wanted to know about changing his oil filter.

Thomcat · May 5, 2017

Nothing wrong with the math I used, as it does a simple job of illustrating a basic point... A point which you seem to have missed btw.........All you're doing is adding un-necessary complexity- ie. rube goldberging a simple thing. Waste money if you choose to, just understand that it is based on false logic.

PS. a couple of your 'math points', if used correctly, would further prove and reinforce my point, especially when inflation is factored in.

Yes, math, schmath, and many a simple solution has started a war. The whole premise of when is the best time or mileage to change ones' oil and filter based upon time or mileage is faulty because:

All filters are not the equal, simply cut open and compare the guts of a Fram or a "greenie" AC PF64E and compare against a Wik, "old" PF64, Amsol, etc. The algorithm in the OLM hasn't the vaguest idea what filter is in use, how often it has been changed, or even if it actually was changed and not simply wiped off by the lazy employee at the cheapo super duper quickee oil change place.

All oils are not equal, evidently even those with the same service grade - half the contents of the oil can are proprietary additives, not the oil itself - that's how Mobil can market a specific extended mileage formulation for changes in excess of mfr. recommendations or their engine killer OLM.

All engines are not equal and operate under the same environmental conditions, it is a recognized fact that accelerated engine wear occurs at engine startup - the OLM has no idea if it was a single start for a 12 mile trip or used otherwise by a local package carrier or meter reader with over 200 engine starts for the same trip or efficiency of the anti drainback valve in the oil filter.

The best time to change oil and/or filter is to acknowledge that there are so many variables involved that recommendations in the manual and the feel good/engine killing OLM are only best guess estimates to use as a guide to when you feel comfortable with the change. If you beat the crap out of the engine and use crap components you might consider more frequent changes, baby it and use quality components and you might consider extending the recommendations.

Or you might simply say "screw it altogether" - I'm going to do what I want and what makes me feel good even if I am pissing away a few bucks -

Buying your spouse a gift once a year on their birthday may be all that is required, but more often certainly doesn't hurt the relationship or their performance

Giving your dog a treat ever day is not necessary to the animal's health, but even though it doesn't make him run faster, puts a hop in his step and makes him happy to see you

Changing your oil too often has never damaged an engine - but if spending the extra bucks doesn't bother you and/or you enjoy doing it and simply makes you feel it runs better - it does!

So it is you who miss my point. Absent a Biblical quote - in the overall scheme of things in our onward rush to the grave whether or not our actions waste money are irrelevant compared to what little pleasures we can claw out of our existence, it's not the money itself. Change at 3K makes me happy; 5K doesn't; 7K makes me sad. And as for the engine - it doesn't give a $hit!

But I digress.....what was the original OP topic? Oh yes, Removing Oil Filter Answer: Righty tighty; Lefty loosy.

Nanotech Environmental · May 5, 2017

Yes, math, schmath, and many a simple solution has started a war. The whole premise of when is the best time or mileage to change ones' oil and filter based upon time or mileage is faulty because:

All filters are not the equal, simply cut open and compare the guts of a Fram or a "greenie" AC PF64E and compare against a Wik, "old" PF64, Amsol, etc. The algorithm in the OLM hasn't the vaguest idea what filter is in use, how often it has been changed, or even if it actually was changed and not simply wiped off by the lazy employee at the cheapo super duper quickee oil change place.

All oils are not equal, evidently even those with the same service grade - half the contents of the oil can are proprietary additives, not the oil itself - that's how Mobil can market a specific extended mileage formulation for changes in excess of mfr. recommendations or their engine killer OLM.

All engines are not equal and operate under the same environmental conditions, it is a recognized fact that accelerated engine wear occurs at engine startup - the OLM has no idea if it was a single start for a 12 mile trip or used otherwise by a local package carrier or meter reader with over 200 engine starts for the same trip or efficiency of the anti drainback valve in the oil filter.

The best time to change oil and/or filter is to acknowledge that there are so many variables involved that recommendations in the manual and the feel good/engine killing OLM are only best guess estimates to use as a guide to when you feel comfortable with the change. If you beat the crap out of the engine and use crap components you might consider more frequent changes, baby it and use quality components and you might consider extending the recommendations.

Or you might simply say "screw it altogether" - I'm going to do what I want and what makes me feel good even if I am pissing away a few bucks -

Buying your spouse a gift once a year on their birthday may be all that is required, but more often certainly doesn't hurt the relationship or their performance

Giving your dog a treat ever day is not necessary to the animal's health, but even though it doesn't make him run faster, puts a hop in his step and makes him happy to see you

Changing your oil too often has never damaged an engine - but if spending the extra bucks doesn't bother you and/or you enjoy doing it and simply makes you feel it runs better - it does!

So it is you who miss my point. Absent a Biblical quote - in the overall scheme of things in our onward rush to the grave whether or not our actions waste money are irrelevant compared to what little pleasures we can claw out of our existence, it's not the money itself. Change at 3K makes me happy; 5K doesn't; 7K makes me sad. And as for the engine - it doesn't give a $hit!

But I digress.....what was the original OP topic? Oh yes, Removing Oil Filter Answer: Righty tighty; Lefty loosy.

I suggest you and Cowpie change your user names to Rube Goldberger 1 and Rube Goldberger 2

It doesn't matter to me who chooses which name.

Jake56 · May 5, 2017

Beejay..........I like your thinking and have taken your approach for years, now the math proves it...thanks ! especially when you consider most of us trade in our vehicles every five years , so why am I worried about the engine , of every vehicle I own, potentially losing a tiny percent of its life , by going overboard with oil changes, when it will be someone elses problem ! Or when the vehicles now come with sensors that tell me how long I can wait ...so instead of every 5 thousand, my wallet and time is saved and engine is not risked.

Thomcat · May 6, 2017

I suggest you and Cowpie change your user names to Rube Goldberger 1 and Rube Goldberger 2

It doesn't matter to me who chooses which name.

Thanks for the suggestion, which I will afford all its due consideration. Certainly more suitable to my inclinations and actions than another colloquial expression like "BJ".

Silverado Steve · May 6, 2017

Wow, any thread with oil in it, turns into which oci is right. The correct answer is in the OM and anything else is just an opinion and how you want to save or waste your money....everyone is free to choose which camp they want to belong to.