6.0 oil change interval

[Dnt]

Good point the previous owner could have fudged the records or the oil change place could have used a cheap recycled oil (maybe even poured in used oil from someone elses vehicle each time, the stuff probably looked like that super bowl commercial about the chunky milk) I can see that there would be a financial incentive for the oil change places to do that.  I am with you on this man, there has got to be an anomaly causing this very strange issue.  

[EZTundra77]

8 hours ago, Cowpie said:

Never said or even implied that Group III were better than Group IV PAO.  I stated the the differences are merely a gray area.  But there are some characteristics that Group III beat Group IV PAO in.  From the same article I linked to and you must have missed.....

 

A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance.

 

And even the Group III base oil synthetic / conventional blends, modern heavy diesel engine manufacturers are recommending up to 50,000 mile service intervals.  That is even without bypass filtration.  

 

My whole contention was that the differences in base oils are closing up as time goes by.  The main features of Group IV and Group V are becoming a big yawn compared to modern Group III and GTL base oils.  GTL is made from natural gas.  And guess what, Group IV PAO is made from ethylene gas which is derived from natural gas also.  The source product is the same for both base oils, but GTL is classified as a conventional.  But it offers similar characteristics as a Group IV PAO.   NOACK volatility being one.   The Pennzoil 10w30 conventional rivals even Amsoil's Signature oil in NOACK, and beats many other off the shelf full synthetics.   You can see the testing results at the Petroleum Quality Institute of America website.

 

GM recommends Mobil 1 5w30  be used in my wife's 2006 Cadillac CTS 3.6.   I use Pennzoil conventional 10w30.  The reason?  it is more cost effective and it knocks the snot out of Mobil 1 in PQIA testing.  In both base oil performance and additive package.  It must be doing a good job.  13 year old car and it runs great and we are keeping it for a while.   The Pennzoil conventional 10w30  appears to be GTL base oil.

 

Even then, the best Group IV PAO or Group V will grenade an engine just like any other base oil if it doesn't have a good add pack in the mix.  There is a lot to a motor oil, which is actually a blend of various components, with base oil being a carrier for the important additives like calcium, boron, molybdenum, zinc, phosphorus, etc.  All of which are critical to do the job a motor oil is called to do.  

 

I think it is becoming more a waste of time to put so much focus on base oils.  The key focus today should probably be more about how strong of an add pack is in the mix.  That can be harder to find out, but there are sources like the Petroleum Quality Institute of America that randomly tests various oils to see what their chemical makeup is and if they meet the classification they are marketed for.

 

 

Interesting.  Were there tests that confirmed better lubricity of group 3's?  Also, do they make group 5 without good add packs?  This isn't meant for me to to bicker, it's meant to learn. 

 

[diyer2]

Help a guy out fellas.

Group 3,4,5 oils.

Tell me what off the shelf brand oils fall into what group?

Castrol GTX Magnetec Group?

Castrol Edge Group?

Valvoline's oil line groups.

And so on.

 

[Cowpie]

3 minutes ago, EZTundra77 said:

Interesting.  Were there tests that confirmed better lubricity of group 3's?  Also, do they make group 5 without good add packs?  This isn't meant for me to to bicker, it's meant to learn. 

 

You would have to ask Machinery Lubrication about the claims they made on Group III since they published the article.  But they are a recognized lubrication industry professional publication so it would be safe to assume that they didn't blow a bunch of hot air regarding what they stated.

 

Sure there are Group V oils with good add packs. Now you have to find which ones.  And therein lies the problem.  Most motor oil companies are not real forthcoming with their proprietary recipes on how they blend up their products.  But while you might not find everything out about a particular product, you can always buy just a quart of the stuff and send in a unused "virgin" sample of the product to a good oil testing facility and get a break down of the major parts of the package for abut $30.  

 

But it does beg the question, what would one be trying to accomplish with  a Group V that a Group III or Group IV could not do?   Some folks have no real clue about that, they are just influenced by marketing.    Something like.. "well it is a synthetic Group V so it just has to be better that any lower group number".  Now if you have a specific turbine engine that is being stressed to extremes, then maybe a Group V Ester is just what you need.  But we are talking about the average auto/truck engine, not a F-22.    Untold numbers of automotive engines have been taken to extreme life cycles without major repairs simply using a quality conventional oil and following sound maintenance practices.  I personally have taken 2 engines beyond 1 million miles on conventional oil without having to make a major engine repair, and my current Detroit engine, it now has 934,165 miles / 20,172 hrs on it without a repair and is still doing work every day that I need done and all it has gotten for its entire operational life is a synthetic blend that is 75% Group II+ conventional and 25% Group IV PAO synthetic.    But it also has a very stout add pack in the mix. 

 

And folks forget what Group V really is.  According to the industry rating scale, a Group V oil is one that doesn't fit into Group I thru Group IV.  Group V is a catch all group classification for anything that doesn't fit in Group I thru IV.   That definition can include a wide range of oils in Group V, some of which I wouldn't want anywhere near my engine.   But marketing can really have such an influence on the average person.  I mean, Group V just has to be better than Group III, right?  Not always.

 

The point I was definitely trying to make is that so many folks only focus on the base oil which is only part of the package when they should focus on the whole package.  There are many parts to a motor oil and each one provides a specific function that any engine needs.   Something to control acids that build up from combustion.   Something to keep particulates and contaminates in suspension so they don't clump up and cause component damage.   And a whole laundry list of other characteristics for proper engine lubrication.   Stuff a base oil just can't accomplish all by itself, no matter what group base oil it is.

[EZTundra77]

9 minutes ago, Cowpie said:

You would have to ask Machinery Lubrication about the claims they made on Group III since they published the article.  But they are a recognized lubrication industry professional publication so it would be safe to assume that they didn't blow a bunch of hot air regarding what they stated.

 

Sure there are Group V oils with good add packs. Now you have to find which ones.  And therein lies the problem.  Most motor oil companies are not real forthcoming with their proprietary recipes on how they blend up their products.  But while you might not find everything out about a particular product, you can always buy just a quart of the stuff and send in a unused "virgin" sample of the product to a good oil testing facility and get a break down of the major parts of the package for abut $30.  

 

But it does beg the question, what would one be trying to accomplish with  a Group V that a Group III or Group IV could not do?   Some folks have no real clue about that, they are just influenced by marketing.    Something like.. "well it is a synthetic Group V so it just has to be better that any lower group number".  Now if you have a specific turbine engine that is being stressed to extremes, then maybe a Group V Ester is just what you need.  But we are talking about the average auto/truck engine, not a F-22.    Untold numbers of automotive engines have been taken to extreme life cycles without major repairs simply using a quality conventional oil and following sound maintenance practices.  I personally have taken 2 engines beyond 1 million miles on conventional oil without having to make a major engine repair, and my current Detroit engine, it now has 934,165 miles / 20,172 hrs on it without a repair and is still doing work every day that I need done and all it has gotten for its entire operational life is a synthetic blend that is 75% Group II+ conventional and 25% Group IV PAO synthetic.    But it also has a very stout add pack in the mix. 

 

And folks forget what Group V really is.  According to the industry rating scale, a Group V oil is one that doesn't fit into Group I thru Group IV.  Group V is a catch all group classification for anything that doesn't fit in Group I thru IV.   That definition can include a wide range of oils in Group V, some of which I wouldn't want anywhere near my engine.   But marketing can really have such an influence on the average person.  I mean, Group V just has to be better than Group III, right?  Not always.

 

The point I was definitely trying to make is that so many folks only focus on the base oil which is only part of the package when they should focus on the whole package.  There are many parts to a motor oil and each one provides a specific function that any engine needs.   Something to control acids that build up from combustion.   Something to keep particulates and contaminates in suspension so they don't clump up and cause component damage.   And a whole laundry list of other characteristics for proper engine lubrication.   Stuff a base oil just can't accomplish all by itself, no matter what group base oil it is.

Agreed.  I use Redline.  Group 5 ester oil.  If you ever hear anything better than that, let me know.  Truly, cuz I would switch.  To me, the optimal performance in best cold start and the ability to maintain good quality up to 10k miles.  And I would guess there are a lot of group 3 oils that can do that.

[Cowpie]

5 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Help a guy out fellas.

Group 3,4,5 oils.

Tell me what off the shelf brand oils fall into what group?

Castrol GTX Magnetec Group?

Castrol Edge Group?

Valvoline's oil line groups.

And so on.

 

Most full synthetics you see on the shelf are Group III.  SOPUS (Pennzoil, Quaker State), Valvoline, Castrol, etc.  Even much of the Mobil 1 lineup that you find of sale or with rebates are typically Group III base oil.  A few, like some of the Mobil 1 line have a mix of Group III and Group IV in them.  No oil on the shelf is exclusively  a Group IV.  Even if it s mostly a Group IV, it needs a Group II or Group III in the mix to help it keep the add pack in suspension.  That is the one major weakness of a Group IV PAO.  And unless a store is also carrying a niche brand of oils, you will not find a Group V on a shelf.  Group IV and Group V are most expensive base oils to make.  And the majority of the public doesn't really need that type of base oil and is not willing to shell out the cost for it.   Group III offers more than any average auto/truck owner needs.  

 

Even Amsoil's lineup includes a lot of Group III / Group IV blending.  their base OE product line is all Group III. 

[Cowpie]

5 minutes ago, EZTundra77 said:

Agreed.  I use Redline.  Group 5 ester oil.  If you ever hear anything better than that, let me know.  Truly, cuz I would switch.  To me, the optimal performance in best cold start and the ability to maintain good quality up to 10k miles.  And I would guess there are a lot of group 3 oils that can do that.

I will do better than that.  When you can provide documentation of a heavy diesel engine going to over 1 million miles without a major repair using a Group V, then please provide the link.  There are thousands upon thousands of documented engines going to over 1 million miles without a repair using Group II thru Group IV.  All the OEM's and oil blenders will gladly provide the information. 

 

 I am in the transport industry.  I have never even seen Redline or any other Group V ester base oil blender even try to make a dent in the lubrication marketing towards heavy duty transport vehicles.  If their product is so grand, the why not?   Truckers are probably the most gullible group of all when it comes  to lubrication marketing claims.   When one buys a truck where the engine alone costs as much or more than someone else's tricked out complete Silverado pickup truck, it is only natural to want to protect that investment as long as possible.  

[EZTundra77]

16 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Help a guy out fellas.

Group 3,4,5 oils.

Tell me what off the shelf brand oils fall into what group?

Castrol GTX Magnetec Group?

Castrol Edge Group?

Valvoline's oil line groups.

And so on.

 

I could be wrong, but GTX is group 2.  Edge is group 3 -EXCEPT Castrol Edge 0w30, european formula.  That was a group 4 but they started making it in Belgium about 5 years ago and now I'm not even sure it's available.  No Idea on Valvoline.  I would guess their conventional is a group 2 and their full synthetic is a group 3.  There's a good char somewhere floating around but I can't find it. 

[mookdoc6]

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:48 PM, 07Serria said:

Just turned 15,000 miles on my 2500 HD 6.0. Been changing my oil every 3000 miles since new,. I always use a full synthetic such as ACDelco full synthetic, or house Brands like O'Reilly, Napa, Carquest, or Federated. My filter of choice has been an oem pf48. I often notice my oil life is only around 50% at 3,000 miles. My question is, are my old school ways throwing money away? Should I trust the oil life and go down to 15%? Or start changing every 5000 miles.? What are you guys doing with your 6.0s. I do some light snow plowing in the winter, only one or two driveways,, other than that the truck doesn't really get worked hard

Double it!  Man we use to run the snot out of 6.0's 8-10K OCI idling and driving 10-12hrs 6 days a week....Honestly, the most durable engine I have ever seen or abused. 

[EZTundra77]

Just now, Cowpie said:

I will do better than that.  When you can provide documentation of a heavy diesel engine going to over 1 million miles without a major repair using a Group V, then please provide the link.  There are thousands upon thousands of documented engines going to over 1 million miles without a repair using Group II thru Group IV.  I am in the transport industry.  I have never even seen Redline or any other Group V ester base oil blender even try to make a dent in the lubrication marketing towards heavy duty transport vehicles.  If their product is so grand, the why not?   Truckers are probably the most gullible group of all when it comes  to lubrication marketing claims.

No reference whatsoever on big diesel. When I had a diesel pickup, I plugged it in i the winter so I didnt demand as much on cold starts.  Totally different animal from where I sit and not nearly as many cold starts as my daily driver.  I have also heard of million mile + engines running on dino juice so I dont doubt your claim whatsoever.  Like I said, I'm mainly concerned with cold start/sub zero/short trips in which the engine never even reaches full warm up.  I think that's the opposite kind of wear you get with a big rig.  Dont you keep those running overnight?  If I had a 30 qt engine oil capacity, I would not run redline either.  My challenge on finding better oil than redline wasnt open ended.  I just meant, if you come across anything specifically that shows it's not top shelf oil, please let me know because I have good second choices at hand.

Cheers and safe driving!

[Cowpie]

18 minutes ago, EZTundra77 said:

No reference whatsoever on big diesel. When I had a diesel pickup, I plugged it in i the winter so I didnt demand as much on cold starts.  Totally different animal from where I sit and not nearly as many cold starts as my daily driver.  I have also heard of million mile + engines running on dino juice so I dont doubt your claim whatsoever.  Like I said, I'm mainly concerned with cold start/sub zero/short trips in which the engine never even reaches full warm up.  I think that's the opposite kind of wear you get with a big rig.  Dont you keep those running overnight?  If I had a 30 qt engine oil capacity, I would not run redline either.  My challenge on finding better oil than redline wasnt open ended.  I just meant, if you come across anything specifically that shows it's not top shelf oil, please let me know because I have good second choices at hand.

Cheers and safe driving!

Only if you want to pay for my fuel!   Let's see..... I spend about $60,000 a year on diesel fuel alone.  A heavy truck engine uses about 1-1.5 gallons of diesel per hour idling.  Saving every bit I can makes a difference.  I only leave the truck running in the most extreme of cold conditions, and that is only to keep diesel fuel from gelling or freezing in extreme cold.  Even then, all of my vehicles have oil pan warmers on them.  If my pickup, the wife's Cadillac, or my compact tractor is going to sit shut off in extreme cold, the pan warmer keeps the oil flowing like a warm summer day at startup. Even the syntethic oil that gets used in the pickup.  And since it is argued that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up, why wouldn't anyone use oil sump warmers whenever possible?   Yet hardly anyone does.  They really don't use much electricity.   Folks will drop thousands of dollars on useless crap on their vehicle but wouldn't shell out a C-note or even less for good oil pan warmer if their life depended on it.  Such is the American mindset.

 

Using sensible practices is why when I lived in the interior of Alaska for 10 years, I only used a conventional 10w30 year round.  How is that possible at -55F?   By using block heater, battery warmer, and oil sump warmer.  My 1979 Ford Bronco 351M lasted all of those 10 years and I sold it eventually when I moved to Colorado later.    Worse that vehicle ever experienced was a real cold snap of -72F (we never used the wind chill nonsense the goes on down here in the lower 48, only actual temperatures). Started right up with instant oil pressure.  

[EZTundra77]

6 minutes ago, Cowpie said:

Only if you want to pay for my fuel!   Let's see..... I spend about $60,000 a year on diesel fuel alone.  Saving every bit I can makes a difference.  I only leave the truck running in the most extreme of cold conditions, and that is only to keep diesel fuel from gelling or freezing in extreme cold.  Even then, all of my vehicles have oil pan warmers on them.  If my pickup, the wife's Cadillac, or my compact tractor is going to sit shut off in extreme cold, the pan warmer keeps the oil flowing like a warm summer day at startup. Even the syntethic oil that gets used in the pickup.  And since it is argued that 90% of engine wear occurs at start up, why wouldn't anyone use oil sump warmers whenever possible?   Yet hardly anyone does.  They really don't use much electricity.   Folks will drop thousands of dollars on useless crap on their vehicle but wouldn't shell out a C-note or even less for good oil pan warmer if their life depended on it.  Such is the American mindset.

 

Using sensible practices is why when I lived in the interior of Alaska for 10 years, I only used a conventional 10w30 year round.  How is that possible at -55F?   By using block heater, battery warmer, and oil sump warmer.  My 1979 Ford Bronco 351M lasted all of those 10 years and I sold it eventually when I moved to Colorado later.    Worse that vehicle ever experienced was a real cold snap of -72F (we never used the wind chill nonsense the goes on down here in the lower 48, only actual temperatures). Started right up with instant oil pressure.  

I had a 351M in a 79 F350.  That thing was a dog but a workhorse.  Agreed that oil warmers would be smart.  And no thanks on the offer to buy your fuel.  Tempting.  But I'll take a pass.  No, like I said, if you happen upon any literature that calls redline out as snake oil, please share.  Many take these pages as a chance to show they're right.  I look to these groups as a chance to share info and realize when I'm wrong.  Which is often

 

[Cowpie]

I will take this a step further.  Here is a link to the results of the Petroleum Quality Institute of America testing of Pennzoil 10w30 conventional.  Take a look at the add pack and especially the NOACK (Volatility) number, which is lower than many full synthetics (lower is better).  Even the viscosity index is in full synthetic territory.  Compare to any full synthetic, including Amsoil or Redline, and see if it compares.  It shames Mobil 1 so I left that out.   PQIA has done similar testing on many full synthetics.  I have found only a rare few that even come close to the Pennzoil conventional's stout add pack combined with such  low NOACK.  Obviously, the product seems to be using GTL base oil.  It is a value if there ever was one.  I get it for under $3 a quart at my local farm and home store.  My wife's 13 year old Caddy sure likes it. This motor oil is all that I have ever used in the car even though GM said it requires Mobil 1.

 

http://www.pqiadata.org/Pennzoil10W30.html

[diyer2]

Thanks for the input guys.

I will continue to do 3 K mile oil and filter changes so I believe any spec oil will do.

Switching to Castrol GTX Magnetec.

My 3 K mile oil changes have been the norm since I started driving, 50 years ago.

 

Living where we do now I believe it is more important.

Mountain living in Colorado with dirt roads, lots of grades changes and towing a boat in summer.

My 7 mile trip to town has 5 grade changes. One pull each way is 3/4 of a mile. One on the way home is a 1.5 mile pull.

 

The cooling fans on our vehicles will come on on a cool spring or fall day from pulling the grades.

In the summer the fans come on sooner with longer run times.

In summer my  empty truck trans. temp can reach 212 degrees F. 

Towing my boat I have seen 230+ degree trans temps.

I change  the trans fluid more now.

 

 

 

 

 

[EZTundra77]

10 minutes ago, Cowpie said:

I will take this a step further.  Here is a link to the results of the Petroleum Quality Institute of America testing of Pennzoil 10w30 conventional.  Take a look at the add pack and especially the NOACK (Volatility) number, which is lower than many full synthetics (lower is better).  Even the viscosity index is in full synthetic territory.  Compare to any full synthetic, including Amsoil or Redline, and see if it compares.  It shames Mobil 1 so I left that out.   PQIA has done similar testing on many full synthetics.  I have found only a rare few that even come close to the Pennzoil conventional's stout add pack combined with such  low NOACK.  Obviously, the product seems to be using GTL base oil.  It is a value if there ever was one.  I get it for under $3 a quart at my local farm and home store.  My wife's 13 year old Caddy sure likes it. This motor oil is all that I have ever used in the car even though GM said it requires Mobil 1.

 

http://www.pqiadata.org/Pennzoil10W30.html

They dont analyze Redline.  The Volatility of the pennzoil is definately lower.  But the TBN is also lower. I believe that TBN is always lower on conventional.  the Viscosity Index index is much lower on the pennzoil vs Mobil 1.  It seems like you found a great conventional motor oil for your wife's caddy.  Certainly not trying to get you to switch.  But after reading this PQIA study, I think full synth. is worth the extra dough