Sludge, Varnish, Soot & Ash

customboss · January 24, 2022

AN's give solvency with lubricous behavior thats the kick. Our fuels don't impart solvency anymore like days of yore.

Our fuels suck. That is a key problem and most of us attack CARB and EPA when in fact their demands actually make cleaner fuels.

Marketing has consumer/voter misguided and shooting the problem solvers many times.

Grumpy Bear · January 27, 2022

On 1/24/2022 at 10:34 AM, customboss said:

Spot on Grumpy Bear,.

Marketing isn't science and scientists and engineers don't pull the trigger on what management and marketing decide to share with the consumer.

There are also things that they can not hide from someone that knows where and how to look.

Example: One of the unique features of various base oils are their specific heat capacity and thermal coefficient. It's impossible to hide from it's affect with terms of market speak and deceitful practices.

Or from a good temperature gauge and someone with research background.

I argue with people. I never argue with results.

It really shows off in a tempered cooling system where the variables are VERY predictable.

Grumpy Bear · March 19, 2022

Nuts and Bolts of Sludge and Varnish

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/59/oil-analysis-varnish#:~:text=Hot surfaces and%2For time,filters%2C and narrow fluid passages.

Tough but good read. (A snippet from the oxidation caused varnish:

In other cases hot spots occur in machines due to high friction, inadequate lubrication (drip and burn feed to bearings), and abnormally high loading/speeds. Whatever the source of the heat, the oil in contact with a hot surface is at risk for flashing and coking. The result is a build-up of sludge and carbon residue. However, if circulation is sufficient and oil temperature is low this condition can be mitigated or avoided.

And, some oils are formulated to have high thermal stability and to resist coking while others are more prone to form carbon residue on hot surfaces. Common tests used to evaluate the thermal stability of an oil at hot surfaces include the Panel Coker Test (USS 3462-T), the Carbon Residue Test (ASTM D 189 or 524), and the Cincinnati Milacron Test (ASTM D 2070-91).

What this article does not address but is eluded to in the snippet are those vanishes caused from entrained FUELS which have much lower 'flash and coking' temperatures as the carbon chains are much shorter AND additive polymers. The oil itself may have fine anti varnish properties and still have issues IF FUEL by GC levels are in excess. Something GDI motors excel at.

Grumpy Bear · March 15, 2023

Scotchgard!

3/15/2023

I was trying to think of a way to explain detergency and a fellow member of this list happened on the perfect analogy. Scotchgard! Thanks @OnTheReel.

Detergent packages in motor oil are not like Tide that remove dirt form the thing you are attempting to clean. Oil detergents, among other things, act more like Scotchgard. They prevent the dirt from sticking. They are consumable. When consumed they no longer work. They can slow down the process but cannot prevent it from happening. If the OCI is short enough this can seem like prevention. I've seen in my time with my father pulling valve covers and oil pans from motors with half a million miles on them you could have used for shaving mirrors they were so clean. These motors used conventional oils but were changed on 1K mile OCI's. I've also seen School Bus motors with 3K OCI's on conventional oils requiring an ice-cream scoop to remove the sludge from the lifter valley.

In my time, and my time is long in the tooth, I've had what I consider major success and supreme failures with Full Synthetics, and it puzzled me for some time. I run motors to 7.5K miles between changes with Red Line HP and have a spotless motor and yet QSUD at 5K on multiple motors cakes the valve covers and plugged breathers. Know what the difference is between these two oils?

Solvency!

Solvency in a motor oil is kind of like drycleaning fluid although not actually true it works to that effect. Harsh cleaners such as KREEN are literally more so. But the point is, they have the ability to 'solve out' like types. Carbon, sludge, varnish, and hold them in solution. More so with a great dispersant package.

So, what gives a lubricant solvency? Polarity! Use of base oils that are polar. AN's, Oil Soluble PAG and all sorts of Ester groups, Ester, Diester and Polyol Esters, to name a few. It's a family not a individual. I'm going to lump them together and just call them Ester Functional. Not in the truest sense but 'acting like'.

There are some marked differences. Straight up Ester can swell seals damaging them. Hasn't happened in like forever but. AN is more polar however this material is a really large molecule. Double Benzene ring type large and is hindered from entering elastomers for that reason.

Unlike Detergent, Solvent action has the ability to clean EXSISTING deposits. For me viscosity is the #1 consideration but close on it's heals is the ability of a lubricant to keep my equipment clean. Ring sticking is almost always a contamination issue and not a mechanical one. Clean motors transfer heat easier and the addition of some Ester provides more friction reduction than a fat dose of Moly or Boron. But I digress....

We know that highly processed mineral oils, Groups II, II+, III, III+ and IV are increasingly non-polar. They are what we call DRY oils. Some Estolides that bond the Oxygen functionality to the chains center are also really dry bases. They have HUGE heat resistance and great pour points and increase in those traits the higher you go on the Group Chart. To the point where they, on their own, will not even hold a reasonable number of necessary additives. The carrier oils either need to be polar or the add package really small.

They are great at resisting the formation of sludge, varnish and the like but if allowed to precipitate they cannot remove them......ever, on their own. This is the direction the industry has taken. Make the really deposit resistant and cut a boat load of additive for various reasons and some very good ones.

Problems start when there is an upset in the system. Like leaky HPFP/fuel injectors and GDI non-vapor gas induction pumping varnish precursors into the oil chest.

Well and the point is, they are not 100% effective. Yes, as good as they are they, by specification and license are allowed to deposit garbage in you motor. Less with each iteration but still present. Likely always will be.

For me this means I want some solvency in my oil. Estolides with aniline points north of 130 are as dry as the Sahara. So are GTL's and PAO's. ANs under 50.

Question is, how do I know how much ester is in my oil? Or any at all for that matter. That would take a really large library for a GCMS and some really expensive testing to nail that down. Add to that the industry standard "Not Telling" policy and you wonder..

Really? Oh, kiddos we have a back door. A method for finding indirectly the solvency of our base oil package.

Have a good UAO/VOA lab? Look at the background Oxidation FTIR and the KF water. If that oxidation number is over 30 Index Units it contains some ester. If that number is over 100 Index Units, it contains allot of it. Remember I'm grouping all polar materials with the word Ester for simplicity's sake.

Look at the KF water. Real end functional oxygen group Esters will have a high water reading even when no or little water is present. Both together tell you the polar components are ester rather than AN of OS-PAG. (PAG almost never used in outside research).

VOA's of oils with very low background oxidation are the most highly refined bases. Read that the least polar.

It's still a guess on what is being used to create polarity, but it also tells who is using just enough to make the add pack stick and who's using enough to clean and maximize lubricity.

So next time someone questions if your Red Line still has any Polyol Ester left in it since Phillips made the 'Brand" a commodity product, point to the 100+ Oxidation and elevated KF ppm. HPL, MPT30K? If you were wondering if AMSOIL withdrew all of the Ester from Signature Series have a look at the 60+ Oxidation. Compare these with GTL Pennzoil, Mobil 1 whatever blends (various by by variations) at under 30.

It's not a scapple but it's REALLY useful.

Lake Speed Jr. put me on this path so no credit is due me. Although the product VOA's discussed were my own research in the VAO libraries. BITOG. Confirmation of formulation at Red Line by my internal resources at Phillips. Post by HPL.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Grumpy Bear
gramar and spelling

diyer2 · March 16, 2023

My take on this info Grumpy. Maybe only high quality oil should be used for extended OCI's.

I was ridiculed for doing 3k OCI's. Your 5k OCI's didn't work, same as my sons 5K OCI's on the same motor.

My brother-in-law still does 3k OCI's using Castrol.

Yes the 2.4L GM motor has some design issues but I would bet shorter OCI's would have helped.

I say again dirty oil isn't good IMO. I don't care if the oil is better today, engines today are different. My current 4k OCI's using Amsoil OE oil in our Hyundai makes me cringe when I change it because it's so dirty.

I will stick with 4k OCI's using Amsoil OE in the Hyundai, 3k OCI's with off the shelf oil for my truck.

Just saying this works for me.

Grumpy Bear · March 16, 2023

3 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Maybe only high-quality oil should be used for extended OCI's.

Baseline Shift

Before the Civil War millions of Buffalo roamed the plains and the Native Americans considered that ''normal''. Today if you want to see one you have to go to a National Park or Zoo, and we now accept this as normal. Even the oldest Native Americans still alive cannot recall the previous times. They too have accepted this as normal. That's a baseline shift.

The instructions in my father's first owner's manual, a 28 Model A Ford, called for oil changes every 500 miles. The oil they used at that time was literally a raw cut of the barrel with zero additives. He used to strain new oil threw cheese cloth to get the debris out. I won't run down the entire history of oil but suffice to say oil improved, machines improved and OCI's got longer.

Problem is they have not done so in lockstep. Expectation has always exceeded the oils' ability. Likely always will.

People are way too quick to take marketing and manufacturing claims as gospel. I don't think they foresaw the time we live in now where the chemistry is digressing due to regulation outpacing innovation. Greed and fear replacing facts. You've experienced similar when the Fed demanded cleaner air motors (1970's) form the OEM's than the existing technology could support. Power and reliability went down the drain. Yes, it caught up and even surpassed expectations. And here we are again. Ready to repeat the experience once more. Accepting technologies that are not yet developed and yet forced by taking away choice. While this analogy is useful in explaining the point, it is not the point.

It's what they do. Take away choice to enforce compliance and wait on the technology.

If a Top Shelf oil cost 5X the bottom shelf, then the public expects it to last 5X longer and the blender claims 10X. Not one bit of that is true. But it is normal. Okay, widely accepted. There are a few of us 'old timers' like you and I whose history and realities has not been dimmed by dementia and misinformation.

ROI is a useful tool for only those who can afford it. That is, if one can afford to kill a motor then yes, by all means, squeeze every cent out of the oil. :crackup:

:banghead:

KARNUT · March 16, 2023

17 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Baseline Shift

Before the Civil War millions of Buffalo roamed the plains and the Native Americans considered that ''normal''. Today if you want to see one you have to go to a National Park or Zoo, and we now accept this as normal. Even the oldest Native Americans still alive cannot recall the previous times. They too have accepted this as normal. That's a baseline shift.

The instructions in my father's first owner's manual, a 28 Model A Ford, called for oil changes every 500 miles. The oil they used at that time was literally a raw cut of the barrel with zero additives. He used to strain new oil threw cheese cloth to get the debris out. I won't run down the entire history of oil but suffice to say oil improved, machines improved and OCI's got longer.

Problem is they have not done so in lockstep. Expectation has always exceeded the oils' ability. Likely always will.

People are way too quick to take marketing and manufacturing claims as gospel. I don't think they foresaw the time we live in now where the chemistry is digressing due to regulation outpacing innovation. Greed and fear replacing facts. You've experienced similar when the Fed demanded cleaner air motors (1970's) form the OEM's than the existing technology could support. Power and reliability went down the drain. Yes, it caught up and even surpassed expectations. And here we are again. Ready to repeat the experience once more. Accepting technologies that are not yet developed and yet forced by taking away choice. While this analogy is useful in explaining the point, it is not the point.

It's what they do. Take away choice to enforce compliance and wait on the technology.

If a Top Shelf oil cost 5X the bottom shelf, then the public expects it to last 5X longer and the blender claims 10X. Not one bit of that is true. But it is normal. Okay, widely accepted. There are a few of us 'old timers' like you and I whose history and realities has not been dimmed by dementia and misinformation.

ROI is a useful tool for only those who can afford it. That is, if one can afford to kill a motor then yes, by all means, squeeze every cent out of the oil.

My problem was I saw extended drains save money, time and work. I saw hydraulic and transmission fluids save thousands in cost, down time and labor. Then the manufacturers changed the game. All the while saying yes we can extend. Then some Grumpy guy comes along and says BS. This guys messing with my kool aid. Then the proof shows up. And finally I see it myself.

diyer2 · March 16, 2023

I'm sure Karnut you used top of the line Amsoil products and being a business, it was a write off. I don't doubt your experience being you bring it up often.

KARNUT · March 16, 2023

3 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

I'm sure Karnut you used top of the line Amsoil products and being a business, it was a write off. I don't doubt your experience being you bring it up often.

Although I didn’t mention it by name. When you see a truck need a transmission rebuild at 100K miles. And all you do is change to Amsoil. And 180K miles later (dad loved that truck) it’s still going. And you have hydraulic motors and pumps that when you blow a hose. They through cavitation fail. Costing thousands plus down time. Simply changing to Amsoil hydraulic oil solves the problem. You become a BIG fan. And want to share it. And watch temperature drop on your equipment and pulling trucks simply by changing to synthetic Amsoil. Yup, a fan I am. I can multiply those results by hundreds of similar results.

diyer2 · March 16, 2023

I get using Amsoil SS series and running it for 25k ? miles saves money. I can't do it.

KARNUT · March 16, 2023

8 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

I get using Amsoil SS series and running it for 25k ? miles saves money. I can't do it.

There’s very few vehicles I would do that with anymore. That was my point. If I was driving lots of miles like I used to. The vehicle I would go extended that I owned recently. That would be my Camry. A non turbo with no cylinder deactivation. My Odysseys no more than 5K max it has cylinder deactivation.

Grumpy Bear · March 16, 2023

What does Extended Mean? Kind of an important question. For some blenders it is Infinite. Literally never change your oil. Synlube's Lube-4-Life is such an oil. For some others it's 20-25K. Mobil 1 AP and others.

For me, up to the API SN designation it has been 7.5K. Today I consider 5K the limit of "Extended" service. Then ONLY IF they contain enough polar material to keep her clean. If not, then 3K would be my limit even for oils based on GTL's.

Could my mind be changed? If lab work in my service and under my care provided evidence of that ability.

Example. I run Red Line HP in Pepper. It has allot of ester group base oil. It also has a large published initial TBN. But in a VOA, it is about an 8. (Different acid used for these two points of reference and not really swappable or scalable.)

It starts as a near 3 TAN, backs up a bit during service as some additives that 'read like' acid are consumed. Then heads north again. Most consider an increase of 1 point in acid a sign the neutralizing agent is about done. So it's tapped out on acid by 4. That means the crossing point is also 4 TBN and as I don't like seeing how close to the cliff I can walk a mid-4 works for me. Red Line HP in Pepper is mid 4's by 5K and I run it no longer than that. to me, that's an extended oil change.

The SP oils and Euro oils have even less initial TBN with the same acid numbers.

This crossing point is not the ONLY "dump it' alarm I have but if everything else is good to go...it is my stopping point.

Grumpy Bear · May 1, 2023

High Performance Lubricants

About Us – Advanced Lubrication, Inc. (advlubrication.com)

Advanced Lubrication, Kankakee, Illinois. I started an account with them as they are the retail supplier for High Performance Lubricants. I'm happy with their Ester based Engine Cleaner's performance in Dizzy, our troubled Ecotec 2.4 I-4. I'm not a Rep, just a currently happy camper.

Each motor on this lot has a different history and a different need. Products come and go. History tells me that about the time I find something that works it gets taken from the marketplace or greed's need changes it "for the better". Whose betterment isn't often mine. My go to list is short and overtime changes with the landscape of the marketplace. I hope this one sticks around awhile. I'll be looking into some of their other products as need and my current supplies dictate. For now, the EC-30 and EC-40 are on the short list.

Grumpy Bear · May 3, 2023

Whoa Horse!

I posted a Forbes article recently wherein their recommendations for their weighted ranking of oils gave only a 15% weighting to "Prevention of sludge and wear". 15%!

Market recognition, price and packaging were given more consideration. :nonod:

I guess I should have seen that coming. After all, when the topic of oil comes up what are the most frequently posted comments?

I trade every 3 to 5 years so it doesn't matter.
I trade every 3 years and have never seen a difference in any oil.
Let the next guy worry about it.
I dump them when the warranty runs out.
It has the Dexos license so it can last whatever GM says it will.
Engineers at GM know what they're doing.
Today's oils are good for 20K or a year.
If it says Synthetic, it can take 300 F all day every day.
If it hasn't the Dexos license it's no good.
It's more important to protect the warranty than the vehicle.
Oil doesn't go bad.
Motors/transmissions/differentials are cheaper than oil.
It cost less to trade than to maintain.
Boutique oils are a scam.
Good oil cost too much.

Truth seems to be that Average Joe really doesn't care at all. I guess that's fine, but it begs the question......

Why do these people feel so compelled to weigh in on a topic you care nothing about?

Which of those statements places a person in a superior position to judge for others the worth of the topic?

The majority of buyers really don't care.

But 15% of buyers do.

Grumpy Bear · June 10, 2023

GM Hit With New Lawsuit For 5.3L Vortec V8 Oil Consumption | GM Authorit

Quote from this link....

Numerous other class-action lawsuits have been filed against GM over this issue in the United States, including in Ohio and Washington. A judge tossed out the Ohio suit last November after it was found that GM did not breach the terms of its warranty with the issue due to this being an inherent design defect and not a flaw related to manufacturing or materials.