Jump to content

Im sorry, but it is kind of funny GM 21-NA-199

14burrito

By 14burrito
in Engines & Drivetrain

 Share

Recommended Posts

BlaineBug Enthusiast

BlaineBug

Posted
Posted
On 11/22/2021 at 6:28 PM, 14burrito said:

So I'm led even more so believe that the 180 marked on the OE stat is start to open when stats have historically been about 15 or so start to full (194 -15 = 179).

 

The stamped 70 reverses this role obviously as 70c = 158f.

 

You can disassemble the new housing and reporting what's stamped on the stat, disassembly is extremely easy.

 

Iv been a believer that the thermostat is labeled start to open temps.

I got a chance to install this revised cooler bypass/thermostat today.  I disassembled both the new and the old.  The OLD pill is labeled V180 while the NEW pill is labeled V135.

20211205_122830.jpg

20211205_132413.jpg

  • Replies 198
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

14burrito
14burrito

Plenty of discussions with the dealer and techline in regards to the operating temps that GM set forth on the powertrain for our Tahoe. They said both engine and gearbox temps were normal and as expec

M1ck3y
M1ck3y

They'll get to the 8 spd once it get's closer to the end of it's life cycle.

newdude
newdude

End of the day it all came down to CAFE/Fuel economy ratings.  The faster the trans got to operating temp, the faster it could produce less friction, the faster it gets better fuel economy.    

Posted Images

BlaineBug Enthusiast

BlaineBug

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, BlaineBug said:

I got a chance to install this revised cooler bypass/thermostat today.  I disassembled both the new and the old.  The OLD pill is labeled V180 while the NEW pill is labeled V135.

20211205_122830.jpg

20211205_132413.jpg


If you're theory is correct that means that the new thermostat starts opening at 135'F and is fully opened at 158'F.

  • Like 1
14burrito Enthusiast

14burrito

Posted
  • Author
Posted
5 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

I got a chance to install this revised cooler bypass/thermostat today.  I disassembled both the new and the old.  The OLD pill is labeled V180 while the NEW pill is labeled V135.

20211205_122830.jpg

20211205_132413.jpg

 

Thank you for checking and confirming this, the more we know!

16LT4 Enthusiast

16LT4

Posted
Posted
On 12/3/2021 at 2:01 PM, BlaineBug said:

I haven't had a chance to install my lower temperature "revised" transmission thermostat yet, however I can't see how you'd experience both lower operating temperature and faster warm up simultaneously.  Your trans fluid is being exposed to the same ~210 degree engine coolant either way.

Regardless, someone above asked if I could detail what my operating temps are with the old style thermostat.  I just returned from a 90-120 minute trip in city traffic non-highway.  When returning home the cluster read the transmission temperature at 189 degrees.  Engine coolant temp reading centered at approximately ~210 degrees.  The outdoor ambient temperature is currently at 51 degrees.

To my understanding, the AT thermostat as originally designed is closed until the transmission reaches its operating temperature, so the ATF isn't being exposed to 210*F coolant until the ATF reaches high temperatures, opening the flow through its thermostat; ECT increases faster than transmission temperature.  Coolers are often heaters when said cooler is liquid-liquid; the oil cooler on my BMW acts as an oil heater on a cold start, because ECT also increases faster than oil temperature.   ECT doesn't reach 200* for at least 10 minutes, sometimes 15, during the cold season right now, so the trans fluid isn't being exposed to 210* coolant until the coolant itself warms.  Regardless, one doesn't need to fully understand the "how," when the data and numbers don't lie.  My ATF is hotter by the time I get to work (12 miles each way) now than before I "flipped the pill", so here an unforeseen result of flipping the pill seems to allow the truck to spend more time driving with hot fluid than cold.  One can read and consult google, but the best data is what is personally collected.

 

Even towing a car 200 miles back in August, my AT fluid never got hotter than 165*, even in stop-and-go.  Before the pill flip, I'd see temperatures in the mid 190*s, unladen on the highway.

  • Like 1
newdude Senior Enthusiast

newdude

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/1/2021 at 4:46 PM, Epsilon Plus said:

 

This is what my 2022 6L90E stat looks like on my 11/21 built 2500 HD. The 70 stamp and all.

 

I saw somewhere back that the HDs didn't used to have a stat.

 

Guess what...

 

 

Correct.  HD has had a stat since the 2020 T1 new trucks came out.  Prior to that 2019 and older gas have never had one.  2017-2019 diesel did however.   Was mounted on the aux cooler lines.  2016 and prior diesels did not have one.  

Edited by newdude
newdude Senior Enthusiast

newdude

Posted
Posted
On 12/3/2021 at 2:01 PM, BlaineBug said:

 Your trans fluid is being exposed to the same ~210 degree engine coolant either way.

 

 

Quick tip for everyone in this thread.

 

2014 and early 2015 V8 trucks, yes, this is correct.  The trans cooler lines hit the radiator, then go out to the aux cooler at the top of the condenser.

 

However...

 

This is NOT the case late 2015-2019 old body V8.  They no longer touch the main radiator at all.  They are dedicated flow to the cooler at the top of the condenser.  

 

See pics below.  I added some red lines in case the lines GM drew weren't 100% clear connecting the lines to their proper fittings/other lines.  Again, V8 only, the V6 doesn't have an aux cooler and only flows through the radiator.  

 

2014-2015.thumb.png.25abaf3fa0a2fdcf1d4efefcfd7377e3.png

 

2015-2019.thumb.png.712860b5fdbc8384271feac6d6609113.png

  • Like 4
Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted

2015 V6 is radiator only and the fluid enters the passenger side bottom (opposite that of the V8) and leaves the radiator on the passenger side top. Can't say about other years. 

 

Like 16LT4, ATF fluid heat up is much quicker with pill flipped. Does not get as hot but does get to say 125 F much quicker.

 

Aftermarket thermostats have a minimum flow to the cooler. Normally about 10% of the pump output to the cooler. The factory thermostat allows zero flow to the cooler bypassing 100% back to the transmission. This robs the system of the quick heat up that aftermarket thermostats permit.  

BlaineBug Enthusiast

BlaineBug

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

2015 V6 is radiator only and the fluid enters the passenger side bottom (opposite that of the V8) and leaves the radiator on the passenger side top. Can't say about other years. 

 

Like 16LT4, ATF fluid heat up is much quicker with pill flipped. Does not get as hot but does get to say 125 F much quicker.

 

Aftermarket thermostats have a minimum flow to the cooler. Normally about 10% of the pump output to the cooler. The factory thermostat allows zero flow to the cooler bypassing 100% back to the transmission. This robs the system of the quick heat up that aftermarket thermostats permit.  

Where is the heat coming from if not connected to the radiator for a fluid to fluid heat transfer mechanism?  I know these trucks run the A/C if in "auto" mode on the climate controls so the condenser would be my only theory, since the condenser does get hot in normal A/C mode.

Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

Where is the heat coming from if not connected to the radiator for a fluid to fluid heat transfer mechanism?  I know these trucks run the A/C if in "auto" mode on the climate controls so the condenser would be my only theory, since the condenser does get hot in normal A/C mode.

Isn't. This would only be true for the models that use the radiator as the primary and best on models where the radiator is the only cooler/heater.

 

I expect this works like it always has. GM tries something awful. Owners manage a work around. GM defeats the work around...Rinse and repeat. 

 

Harley does a similar thing. Aftermarket comes up with a problem solver then Harley mimics it and makes it part of a package forcing the aftermarket to a different product and/or living with the sales possible from earlier models. 

 

Actually...they all do it. It's what passes for Research and Development these days. 

 

A person so inclined might look at an early radiator for the 2016 on models. And if the coolers are already present and just not being used 😉 re-piping the system to the early layout. There are a few aftermarket radiators so equipped. 

 

Providing of course you see value in a quicker warmup. 

 

I believe the systems without radiator cooler, are they not also the models with shutters? 

16LT4 Enthusiast

16LT4

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

Where is the heat coming from if not connected to the radiator for a fluid to fluid heat transfer mechanism?  I know these trucks run the A/C if in "auto" mode on the climate controls so the condenser would be my only theory, since the condenser does get hot in normal A/C mode.

 

The ATF cooler lines are still ran through the engine compartment, which are increasingly well sealed to ambient air, so my untested hypothesis is that the lines, and therefore the fluid flowing through them, is heated by radiant heat soak from the engine.  Yesterday, ambient temperature of 58*F, my ATF was at 90*F within 5 minutes of run time and less than a mile.  With the ATF t-stat working as designed, I'd be almost home (12 miles) before hitting that temperature IIRC.

 

I don't have shutters.

Edited by 16LT4
  • Like 1
14burrito Enthusiast

14burrito

Posted
  • Author
Posted
4 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Isn't. This would only be true for the models that use the radiator as the primary and best on models where the radiator is the only cooler/heater.

 

I expect this works like it always has. GM tries something awful. Owners manage a work around. GM defeats the work around...Rinse and repeat. 

 

Harley does a similar thing. Aftermarket comes up with a problem solver then Harley mimics it and makes it part of a package forcing the aftermarket to a different product and/or living with the sales possible from earlier models. 

 

Actually...they all do it. It's what passes for Research and Development these days. 

 

A person so inclined might look at an early radiator for the 2016 on models. And if the coolers are already present and just not being used 😉 re-piping the system to the early layout. There are a few aftermarket radiators so equipped. 

 

Providing of course you see value in a quicker warmup. 

 

I believe the systems without radiator cooler, are they not also the models with shutters? 

My condenser cooled ATF is built with shutters. 

  • Like 1
BlaineBug Enthusiast

BlaineBug

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Isn't. This would only be true for the models that use the radiator as the primary and best on models where the radiator is the only cooler/heater.

 

I expect this works like it always has. GM tries something awful. Owners manage a work around. GM defeats the work around...Rinse and repeat. 

 

Harley does a similar thing. Aftermarket comes up with a problem solver then Harley mimics it and makes it part of a package forcing the aftermarket to a different product and/or living with the sales possible from earlier models. 

 

Actually...they all do it. It's what passes for Research and Development these days. 

 

A person so inclined might look at an early radiator for the 2016 on models. And if the coolers are already present and just not being used 😉 re-piping the system to the early layout. There are a few aftermarket radiators so equipped. 

 

Providing of course you see value in a quicker warmup. 

 

I believe the systems without radiator cooler, are they not also the models with shutters? 

The AC condenser does get warm, as heat in the cab is taken out.

  • Like 1
BlaineBug Enthusiast

BlaineBug

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

The AC condenser does get warm, as heat in the cab is taken out.

So if it's getting warm that will also impact trans temperature.  On any day even a hot day I don't see under hood temperatures having a significant impact on the trans cooler lines that run through there to the front of the vehicle.

16LT4 Enthusiast

16LT4

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

So if it's getting warm that will also impact trans temperature.  On any day even a hot day I don't see under hood temperatures having a significant impact on the trans cooler lines that run through there to the front of the vehicle.

 

Maybe maybe not, but heat soak is the best explanation I've come up with.  Also, don't discount heat soak; if under-hood engine air can cost an engine 20-30 hp (based on fuel trims and trap speeds from engineer friends who log this sort of thing for fun), it will certainly help heat anything in the engine bay.  Even in sub-zero ambient temperatures, snow/ice melts off my insulated hood surfaces within a few miles/minutes, so heat-soak is definitely a factor.

 

Here's some information I obtained on another one of my vehicles to compare intake temperatures with and without the factory "cold air" intake snorkel installed, taking note of IAT (which is closely equivalent to engine-room air temp, of 100*F):

 

On the same loop, in the same direction every time, at the same range of speeds 30-65 mph. Some N52 E83 data from today:

Ambient air temp: 27.5*C

After 5 mile drive to get to operating temp as per ECT: IAT 29.5*C.

I stopped, removed the intake snorkel elbow from the air inlet to the air box. IAT shot up to 33.5*C within a few hundred yards. By the end of the loop, IAT hit a max of 38.2*C, dropping back to 37.2*C when I slowed down to a stop at the starting line.

Back to starting point. Re-installed the elbow. IAT dropped to 33.4 within 100ft, and ranged 31.5-33.5*C while driving.

Some interesting points. Regardless of whether the intake elbow was in place, idle temp after both loops was the same 36.5-37.5*C.

With the elbow OFF, 65 mph showed a 2*C WARMER IAT than at 35-40 mph. Under full throttle acceleration, where one wants power, IAT reached 39.5*C; if I sustained throttle position even longer, I would fully expect even hotter IAT.

With the elbow on, however, full throttle application saw the reverse. From 33*C at cruise at 45mph, I could instantly drop IAT to 29*C with my right foot, and then watch IAT more slowly raise back to its starting position once the throttle pedal was released. As long as I maintained the call for power with my right foot, IAT remained close to ambient air temp, unlike elbow off. Elbow On showed a smaller IAT temp delta at all speeds, only 2-3*C range compared to about 5*C, with the range occurring closer to ambient temp.

Elbow on IAT stayed within 10*C of ambient air temp at low-load conditions with only a 2*C delta at higher load conditions, while elbow off showed a minimum of 10*C and 12*C, respectively.

The divergent IAT data implies a few things: 1) under-hood airflow/air temp equalization is virtually nonexistent on this chassis and has no affect on IAT. If it did, IAT and vehicle velocity would have inverse relationships regardless of elbow installation. 2) further support that the factory air intake truly is a “cold air intake”, as lifting those valves higher and opening the throttle butterfly increase cold air velocity, combatting engine heat soak on the air intake tubes. The same speed-dependent elbow-on IAT data from above was replicated at a constant speed of 35 mph by downshifting into lower gears, increase engine RPM and intake air velocity, attempting to remove airflow as a variable.

Edited by 16LT4
  • Like 1

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing

  • Latest Articles

  • Posts

    • Grumpy Bear
      Some Assembly is Required

      By Grumpy Bear · Posted

      Can it still be Assembled I?    Stribeck says that we need a certain amount of viscosity under conditions of load and velocity to prevent two surfaces of a know roughness from tearing each other asunder. And we have marketing trying to tell the masses that those two surfaced require less of that commodity due to more exact limits being placed on the same old clearances. We also know that there are limits to how hard something can before it becomes to brittle to be viable and to smooth to 'wet' the surface and that both of those conditions have been known and met since about the Second World War.    That viscosity value shook out at 10 centistokes at 212 F just under a hundred years ago.  Give this a look: [Anton Parr]     What is advertised is the Kinematic viscosity (mm2/s) or that which has been density adjusted but the value we are after is the dynamic viscosity (mPa.s) or true viscosity. You can see that this number is dependent on density thus base stock and temperature. You can also see that an SAE 30 doesn't reach that value in this example. However an SAE 30 that is at the upper end of the SAE 30 range; 12.5 cSt (mm2/s), might. 12.5 * .83 = 10.375 (mm2/s). If you could find an SAE 30 at the upper end these days.   Then there is the complication of viscosity modifiers or VII or VM, whatever you wish to call them. Polymers added to very thin base oils, perhaps 3 to 6 cP oils, that will meet the SAE *W30 spec at 'tested' shear rates and 100 C/212F  target temperature. So a polymer fortified base that is a fraction of the 10 cP requirement Stribeck insist upon.   This could be all well and good if those polymers didn't have two very problematic 'features'. They shear or loose viscosity both 1.) permanently and 2.) temporality. And they do both omitted in the advertised data with the distinct  purpose of deceiving the consumer of the actual operating state of the fluid. I've shown the example of Warren Oils COSTCO 10.91 cSt 5W30 formuation several times where the 100 C HTHS value is 6.9 cP!! That's the temporary shear down and with and SSI or shear stability index of 9.4 cSt. Note the intentional deception in using mixed units?    After a short while that 9.4 cSt oil has a viscosity corrected dynamic value of 7.8 cP. But as the SSI is still within the range of an SAE *W30 whose lower value is 9.3 cSt.    This allows them to continue to call this SAE 16 weight oil a 30 weight, the cake, and still meet the API requirements for fuel efficiency IMPROVEMENT mandated by the EPA. The eating of the cake. By the time you've worn out your motor doing the responsible thing by adhering to the warranty requirements, (the stick), you get deprived of the carrot, wear control. So sad, to bad.   So what can be done? Do I need actually say? [Anton Parr]       Even this must be monitored if the oil is on the low side and the VII an organic or you opt for a 0W40 with an even lighter base oil and more / higher MW VII. (Note the lower density of the 40 weight versus the SAE 30 mono-weight?)    There is another workaround. Temperature. An SAE *W30 run at a bulk temperature of between 180 and 195 F.    Being the belt and suspenders sort I am I do both. Run it cook and run it heavy.    In Part II I'll work the AW package. 
    • Atlas
      Wow I'm in a pickle. (Broke down truck) and a story.

      By Atlas · Posted

      So, do I go elbow-deep on this thing or list it for sale and play dumb? Seems to "runs good."   I'm about $1200 away from having: -a rebuilt injector ($300) -a new cat ($250) -a new cat back exhaust (OE style) ($300) -a new AC compressor ($200) -AC refrigerant charge ($150)   In theory, this should rectify the obvious detracting issues from its value and operability. Cold AC with a non-squeaking AC pulley both sounds and feels good. An exhaust that isn't cut/hacked in 17 different places and doesn't vibrate on a crossmember would make it sound and feel less janky. A working cat would help the stink, and will save the earth, but *if and only if* the fuel system is working properly, which would also address the intermittent "rich" CEL.   Heard a good one... CEL for "Rich condition" means you haven't spent enough money on the truck lately, and it's letting you know.   Rebuilding the injector would seem to be the most important part. Replacing the cat would be secondary. I don't think mine is plugged or overly restricted, but it might be a little restricted? I have no good way to tell other than seat of the pants feel. I hate the smell.   The current theory is I have a rich idle problem: A bad fuel pressure regulator, or a leaking injector(s) being the highest probabilities. I already replaced the FPR but that doesn't mean its replacement isn't also bad. It was a new part from Dorman, but the packaging looked like it had been sitting on a shelf for 20 years.   This is the (single) upstream O2 sensor shown at idle. I'm getting a lot of "rich" it seems. Sometimes it stays high like that and doesn't drop down. That makes me think it's processing injector leaks or a partially stuck open injector.     Other times it looks like this. Nice oscillations between rich and lean, which is what I think it should be. Under load and at speed, the oscillations are nice and tight and uniform looking, high and low.     Fuel trims suggest the PCM is compensating pretty hard at idle to pull fuel out. But it's not enough to trip a CEL. Something about slowing to a stop: brake vaccum booster, EGR, or the EVAP purge is delayed, or there's pooled fuel in the intake again that's draining into a cylinder is enough to set the CEL. Of course, in two days of driving, it hasn't set. I was hoping to actually look at the freeze-frame data when it sets. IAT is high because it's idling on an 83 degree day here.  
    • Another JR
      Gasser Subforum Has Been Quiet - - So, Regenerative Braking and Using L10

      By Another JR · Posted

      Have considered installing a DC to DC charger in your camper to replace your isolator?  
    • newdude
      Gas fill door

      By newdude · Posted

      Common failure.  You need to replace the fuel door housing.   The painted cover transfers over to the new housing.  To remove the old one there is 4 spots where you poke the plastic to release it.  
    • newdude
      Gasser Subforum Has Been Quiet - - So, Regenerative Braking and Using L10

      By newdude · Posted

      No such thing as regenerative braking on a pure ICE vehicle.     Regenerative braking is the re-capture of energy from electric motors and stores it in the battery pack.  So hybrids, PHEV and EVs have regenerative braking.     What you are seeing is the charging system changing modes is all.  Its likely entering charge mode for some sort of reason is all.  All of the charging modes will be listed below.   As for L10 vs D.  L10 turns off automatic grade braking.  L10 puts you in control of grade downshifts where in D it will automatically do it based on brake pedal position and other factors.  Otherwise L10 and D drive exactly the same aside from that one aspect.    Battery Sulfation Mode The BCM will enter this mode when the interpreted Generator output voltage is less than 13.2 V for 45 minutes. When this condition exists the BCM will enter Charge Mode for 2–3 minutes. The BCM will then determine which mode to enter depending on voltage requirements.   Charge Mode The BCM will enter Charge Mode when ever one of the following conditions are met:   Windshield wipers are ON for more than 3 s. Climate Control Voltage Boost Mode Request is true, as sensed by the HVAC control module via serial data. High speed cooling fan, rear defogger, and HVAC high speed blower operation can cause the BCM to enter the Charge Mode. The estimated battery temperature is less than 0°C (32°F). Battery State of Charge is less than 80%. Vehicle speed is greater than 145 km/h (90 mph) A current sensor malfunction exists. System voltage is determined to be below 12.56 V When any one of these conditions is met, the system will set targeted generator output voltage to a charging voltage between 13.9–15.5 V, depending on the battery state of charge and estimated battery temperature.   Fuel Economy Mode The BCM will enter Fuel Economy Mode when the estimated battery temperature is at least 0°C (32°F) but less than or equal to 80°C (176°F), the calculated battery current is less than 15 A and greater than −8 A, and the battery state-of-charge is greater than or equal to 80%. Its targeted generator output voltage is the open circuit voltage of the battery and can be between 12.5–13.1 V. When fuel economy mode is active, the generator is not charging, only maintaining open circuit battery voltage. The BCM will exit this mode and enter Charge Mode when any of the conditions described above are present.   Headlamp Mode The BCM will enter Headlamp Mode when ever the head lamps are ON (high or low beams). Voltage will be regulated between 13.9–14.5 V.   Start Up Mode When the engine is started the BCM sets a targeted generator output voltage of 14.5 V for 30 s.   Tow/Haul Mode (if applicable) Pressing the Tow/Haul Mode button located on the center stack, the vehicle system voltage is raised and the remote (non-vehicle) battery will be charged. Having the headlamps on will raise the system voltage and if the Tow/Haul button is applied it will not serve any purpose. The voltage is regulated between 13.9-14.5 V.      

  • GM-Trucks.com Clubs

  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...