Leveling Kit - Upper Strut Spacers Vs. Lower Block Spacers

[14burrito]

22 minutes ago, BlaineBug said:

 

That is true although I thought the upper bushings were the ones that had the alignment for caster/camber and then the toe would be adjusted via tie rod ends.  I don't believe they ever loosen/tighten the bottom control arm bushings at all.  I have never seen an adjustable lower control arm bushing for any make or manufacturer.

Toyota has been eccentric cams on their LCA's since like the 90s.

[14burrito]

7 hours ago, ftwhite said:

When you add spacers, you are not extending the length of the strut/coilover. You simply move the control arms further down in their travel arch. Since the top mounting is fixed on the body, and the bottom is on the lower control arm. Hence the lift. The length of the shock and the spring is the same in this case. What changes is how much sooner the upper control arm hits the droop stop (down stop built into the frame) and how much longer it takes (or how much more room the wheel has in the wheel well) when it is fully compressed.
Most of the time, when you add a lift/level/spacer/coilover, you also get an alignment. The control arm bolts (only 4 on the body side) get adjusted, so that generally addresses the bushing bind you mentioned.   

Regarding spacers...

Back to your comment "not extending the length, just moving the arm further down"...How can you say adding X spacer doesnt alter the coilovers length??

 

Again, talking spacers and stock coilovers...

Static ride height - the only way to increase leverage is to increase the coilover assemblies length as can be seen in the attached drawing. Adding a 1" spacer on the top or under increases the assembly length which is why you gain lift. You have not alter the coilover preload therefor no change to the coilovers spring rate. 

 

Same concept as if you look a stock truck. Jack up the front an inch or two with a floor jack - you have reduced load on the coilover assembly making it longer than it was before. Let's say the spring rates 600lbs per inch, jacking up the front removes weight off the assembly so it is no longer compressed by X amount of inches due to a lack of weight to compress.

[ftwhite]

2 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

 

  I don't believe they ever loosen/tighten the bottom control arm bushings at all.  I have never seen an adjustable lower control arm bushing for any make or manufacturer.

Toyota 4Runners and Tacomas both adjust via the lower arms. My Jeep TJ also has adjustable lowers.

but I agree they may not touch them on a Silverado unless you ask them to.

[ftwhite]

1 hour ago, 14burrito said:

Regarding spacers...

Back to your comment "not extending the length, just moving the arm further down"...How can you say adding X spacer doesnt alter the coilovers length??

 

Again, talking spacers and stock coilovers...

Static ride height - the only way to increase leverage is to increase the coilover assemblies length as can be seen in the attached drawing. Adding a 1" spacer on the top or under increases the assembly length which is why you gain lift. You have not alter the coilover preload therefor no change to the coilovers spring rate. 

 

Same concept as if you look a stock truck. Jack up the front an inch or two with a floor jack - you have reduced load on the coilover assembly making it longer than it was before. Let's say the spring rates 600lbs per inch, jacking up the front removes weight off the assembly so it is no longer compressed by X amount of inches due to a lack of weight to compress.

I think we agree, but are just calling what the "assembly" is different. I think in your description, you consider the spacers part of the shock/coilover/spring. What I am saying is that they are actually part of the body and arm mounts. They just move the mounting locations. The fact you bolt them to the top of the shock/coilover first, is just a convenient installation step. They don't change the shock length, preload, or piston location at rest. Its the same.  

 

If you use coilovers and preload to adjust ride height, you are changing the relation of the spring to the shock, which changes its ride height length (lift or lower) but since the shock piston and shaft are the same, you end up just moving where they start off. So they bottom out sooner, or top out sooner. Unless you get the longer ones designed for the desired height to begin with. 
 

I think we are saying the same thing.  

[BlaineBug]

37 minutes ago, ftwhite said:

Toyota 4Runners and Tacomas both adjust via the lower arms. My Jeep TJ also has adjustable lowers.

but I agree they may not touch them on a Silverado unless you ask them to.

 

Your Wrangler TJ has a solid front axle and aftermarket adjustable control arms to adjust their length to achieve proper caster angle and alignment in wheel well.  Apples/oranges.

[ftwhite]

1 hour ago, BlaineBug said:

 

Your Wrangler TJ has a solid front axle and aftermarket adjustable control arms to adjust their length to achieve proper caster angle and alignment in wheel well.  Apples/oranges.

Sure. Fruit.  You had mentioned 8 bolts, and I could only come up with solid axle to count 8 bolts (one on each end of four arms used to located a solid axle. So I just offered examples of adjustable lower arms used to located the wheel that had bushings. 
Regardless of the apple/oranges, I would think the bushing on the body side don't really care if the axle is solid or of a CV joint nature. As you point out, it needs to be torqued/tightened at ride height to maximize lifetime. I honestly had not thought of that when I did my lifts on my Silverado. So its a good point and we agree on that at least.    

[BlaineBug]

6 hours ago, ftwhite said:

Sure. Fruit.  You had mentioned 8 bolts, and I could only come up with solid axle to count 8 bolts (one on each end of four arms used to located a solid axle. So I just offered examples of adjustable lower arms used to located the wheel that had bushings. 
Regardless of the apple/oranges, I would think the bushing on the body side don't really care if the axle is solid or of a CV joint nature. As you point out, it needs to be torqued/tightened at ride height to maximize lifetime. I honestly had not thought of that when I did my lifts on my Silverado. So its a good point and we agree on that at least.    

I like women, not a fruit, you're being unreasonable.

Your Jeep Wrangler TJ has/had the same front axle as my Jeep Cherokee, a Dana 30.  Solid front axle.  I had Rusty's adjustable upper and lower control arms on mine.  Rough Country control arm drop brackets.  Rusty's steering (sucked!) and GoFerIt above-the-knuckle steering inserts.  Rusty's adjustable tracbar.  Rear axle was a Chrysler 8.25.  Had a Tom Woods rear driveshaft made for it too and a yoke conversion kit for the NP231 transfer case.

I started off with a 3" lift with 30x9.50s, then went to 4.5" with 32x11.50s, and finally settled around 8" with 33x1250s.  Looking back I should have stayed 3", it was the most friendly for daily driving!

[ftwhite]

4 hours ago, BlaineBug said:

Your Jeep Wrangler TJ has/had the same front axle as my Jeep Cherokee, a Dana 30.  Solid front axle.  I had Rusty's adjustable upper and lower control arms on mine.  Rough Country control arm drop brackets.  Rusty's steering (sucked!) and GoFerIt above-the-knuckle steering inserts.  Rusty's adjustable tracbar.  Rear axle was a Chrysler 8.25.  Had a Tom Woods rear driveshaft made for it too and a yoke conversion kit for the NP231 transfer case.

Sounds like a great setup. Agree that for jeeps, higher creates more issues and drivability problems. My TJ came with a 3inch body lift and I added 2inch lift with springs. I want to cut the body lift in half, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. 

Apples/Oranges = Fruit. Not my intent to be derogatory. Sorry about how I worded that.  

 

[BlaineBug]

I took some more measurements today, this time from the floor of my garage to the bottom of the frame.  3 tires at 35 PSI and 1 at 36 PSI according to dash display.

 

Front Left = 11-5/8"

Front Right = 11-7/8"

Rear Left = 12-1/4"

Rear Right = 12-1/8"

 

So when using the frame as reference there is less than an inch of difference from front to rear.  That's pretty level.  I don't have much weight but I have a tool box, some shackles, straps, and 3 inserts for the hitch receiver, so maybe 75 pounds in weight in the back at all times.

 

I'd have to say with such little difference being reported, I don't think I have any desire for a "leveling kit" at this time after all.

 

Maybe it's the trucks with the rear leafs that have a more significant difference from front to rear?

[Jeffrey Soulages]

I have a general question on this you may be able to shed light on. If I were to put a 1.75" level in the form of a spacer on top of the shock, would it put any added stress anywhere else? If I kept the factory control arms, would it compromise them or the ball joint?