Oil Consumption

[Jettech1]

On 7/5/2023 at 10:03 AM, Another JR said:

If you are going to use a poll with only two options, you might get more meaningful info for your purpose if you asked people to check if they have to add oil between changes or check whether they believe their consumption is above or below some level like 1 quart per 4000 miles. 
 

On my truck I lose less than a pint in my 3750 change interval. I suspect a certain amount of fuel absorption offsets the actual oil usage rate on these engines.  I received my truck with two miles on it. Nobody drove it but the delivery process people prior to me, and I broke it in very conservatively. That may be why mine uses very little oil. Or maybe I was just lucky. 
 

My purpose was to keep it clean, not muddy the waters so to speak. Either your engine uses oil or it doesn't. One or the other. Trying to simplify it. I know there are a thousand other reasons why the gasser may use oil. But I was trying to keep it simple.  

[Jettech1]

On 7/5/2023 at 6:55 PM, Flatus said:

I'm still trying to confirm if mine burns any or not. I checked my oil the day before I got my last oil change and it was at the halfway mark between the normal level lines. So, it appeared it may have used just a small amount in 5000 miles. I will continue to check it regularly but I am not concerned about it right now.

I believe a small drop in oil on the dipstick is totally normal. Most every vehicle I've owned will typically use a quart of oil in 5k miles. What I'm basing that on is how much I was able to drain out of it compared to how much I put it in at the last oil change. Not scientific at all, just putting the old oil in jugs from the drain pan. But yeah. Half to a quart in 5k miles was the norm. 

[diyer2]

I keep vehicles for an extended time so they reach high mileage, usually over 200k. Most used some oil between oil changes and all had oil usage go up with higher mileage.

 

[BuckWallace]

I just picked up an AT4 gasser and was somewhat worried by this. Just did my first oil change around ~1000 miles, but I'll definitely report back when I get to the normal oil change intervals!

[Grumpy Bear]

3 minutes ago, BuckWallace said:

I just picked up an AT4 gasser and was somewhat worried by this. Just did my first oil change around ~1000 miles, but I'll definitely report back when I get to the normal oil change intervals!

 

I have a theory on these motors oil consumption. For a host of reasons these motors, which are built with really narrow low tension rings are very fussy about cleanliness. Even the newest DEXOS licensed oils still allow a slow build up over time of carbon/varnish around and between the ever so sensitive second and third rings. I don't think they even have to stick. Just fill the 'ditch' in the second ring. There are fewer than a handful of PCMO's with enough natural solvency to prevent this from happening AT THE OEM RECOMMENDED OCI's. The few that do don't have a DEXOS license. People being what they are, protect the warranty first and the motor second. IMHO of course.  

[BuckWallace]

1 minute ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

I have a theory on these motors oil consumption. For a host of reasons these motors, which are built with really narrow low tension rings are very fussy about cleanliness. Even the newest DEXOS licensed oils still allow a slow build up over time of carbon/varnish around and between the ever so sensitive second and third rings. I don't think they even have to stick. Just fill the 'ditch' in the second ring. There are fewer than a handful of PCMO's with enough natural solvency to prevent this from happening AT THE OEM RECOMMENDED OCI's. The few that do don't have a DEXOS license. People being what they are, protect the warranty first and the motor second. IMHO of course.  

Just curious, is there an oil you recommend or have heard of that prevent or lessen this carbon buildup? I plan on using the Dexos (my Toyota Tundra actually seemed to run best and was less "noisy" running Kirkland cheapo oil, which is Dexos approved) recommended in the manual during my warranty period, but am always open to other recommendations!

[Grumpy Bear]

3 minutes ago, BuckWallace said:

Just curious, is there an oil you recommend or have heard of that prevent or lessen this carbon buildup? I plan on using the Dexos (my Toyota Tundra actually seemed to run best and was less "noisy" running Kirkland cheapo oil, which is Dexos approved) recommended in the manual during my warranty period, but am always open to other recommendations!

 

There is nothing on the approved DEXOS list I'm aware of that has enough solvency at the recommended OCI's. This is a property of esters, OS/PAGs, and SOME AN's, not all. A fair indicator is a VOA oxidation value over 30. There may be some Mobil 1 formulations that pass muster, but I could not tell you which one(s). 

 

If you insist on DEXOS then change it often and you have a chance. 3K often or sooner. It's all I got if DEXOS is a priority. 

 

You could look on BITOG at the VOA lists and perhaps find an oil with a 30+ oxidation on the DEXOS list. It's a resource. But watch dates and lab used. If you find something double check with your own VOA. 

 

Before the ink dries on this post two dozen people with a bazillion miles using Casey's Dexos oil at 10K mile OCI's will pop off say'n Not So. Whatever. 

[BuckWallace]

26 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

There is nothing on the approved DEXOS list I'm aware of that has enough solvency at the recommended OCI's. This is a property of esters, OS/PAGs, and SOME AN's, not all. A fair indicator is a VOA oxidation value over 30. There may be some Mobil 1 formulations that pass muster, but I could not tell you which one(s). 

 

If you insist on DEXOS then change it often and you have a chance. 3K often or sooner. It's all I got if DEXOS is a priority. 

 

You could look on BITOG at the VOA lists and perhaps find an oil with a 30+ oxidation on the DEXOS list. It's a resource. But watch dates and lab used. If you find something double check with your own VOA. 

 

Before the ink dries on this post two dozen people with a bazillion miles using Casey's Dexos oil at 10K mile OCI's will pop off say'n Not So. Whatever. 

I meant do you have any recommendations regardless of Dexos rating. I'll be out of warranty based on years way before mileage, so I might just switch oils at that point.

[Pryme]

29 minutes ago, BuckWallace said:

I meant do you have any recommendations regardless of Dexos rating. I'll be out of warranty based on years way before mileage, so I might just switch oils at that point.

I believe grumpy likes redline. I think I read that somewhere. 

If you will be out of warranty by years not miles then you don’t drive it much like me and I have yet to go over like 3,200 tops. First was at 800 then around 2700 can’t recall right now and just got the freebie at 5,900. 
 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

41 minutes ago, BuckWallace said:

I meant do you have any recommendations regardless of Dexos rating. I'll be out of warranty based on years way before mileage, so I might just switch oils at that point.

 

9 minutes ago, Pryme said:

I believe grumpy likes redline.  I think I read that somewhere. 

If you will be out of warranty by years not miles then you don’t drive it much like me and I have yet to go over like 3,200 tops. First was at 800 then around 2700 can’t recall right now and just got the freebie at 5,900. 

 

Red Line HP white bottle. The Professional Series is just another commodity product. White bottle is a PAO/POE blend with a hint of VII. About 5% and no PPD. Oxidation between 90-125 depending on SAE grade.  The 0W20 has a HTHS of a 30. 

 

I've posted this photo ad nauseam.  Under the cover of my 167,000-mile motor on Red Line HP at 5K OCI. 

 

 

MPT30K. Don't know where you live so don't know your winter conditions. The 5W30 JUST failed the CCS test at PQIA. Just. I look at this one as more a 10W30 for cold weather. This is an interesting oil as none of the 30K line use VII's. And are ONLY POE/PAO blends. Tough as nails and plenty of polarity to be a good solvent. 0W20 HTHS is a hair higher than Red Line HP and I expect will do cold quite well even without AN. 

 

High-Performance Lubricants. Multiple lines. No VII is like MPT 30K but with some AN's and better cold weather. A gem is the group is the No VII Euro 5W20 for those who insist on a 20. It has the HTHS of a stout 30. The 0W20 and 5W20 non-euro fall short. I haven't played enough with this brand other than their engine cleaner to have a handle on the ester content. Solvency is their all lines claim to fame. I am using their SAE40-EC with Rotella T6 5W40 4:1 in a gummed up Ecotec 2.4 and it is delivering the goods. Very pleased with this company. 

 

All of these will go 5K between changes. Longer maybe formula dependent. And depending on your views of the TBN/TAN relationship. I call 4 TBN my bottom number and the Red Line is just above that at 5K miles. 

 

I used to put AMSOIL SS on this list, but they are going a different direction now days. Still a great oil but they have reduced viscosity across the board to the low end of the SAE spec and control 'stay in grade' with some of the best VI's out there. A viscosity spec that over the last 50 years continues to decrease. This is a fuel economy move and they have handed the control of wear over to chemical assistance. Last raw oxidation number I saw on new oil sample was right at 30 so it has some polar material in it. They have and still do boast cleanliness. Who knows. DEXOS1Gen3 claim best cleanliness too.  When I've used it I grade up one number. 

 

I'm rambling now. Tired. 7 hours driving today. 

 

[diyer2]

BuckWallace

I would recommend Amsoil OE. Better than off the shelf oil but not a boutique oil $.

This oil is rated for 7500 miles. I would do 5k if your going to keep your truck to high mileage.

[the wanderer]

On 7/10/2023 at 11:27 PM, BuckWallace said:

I meant do you have any recommendations regardless of Dexos rating. I'll be out of warranty based on years way before mileage, so I might just switch oils at that point.

 

Another vote for HPL. That oil is best in class, but you'll pay for it unless you stick with their more "entry level" oil which still exceeds off the shelf products by a large margin. Their entire line has the same cleaning ability, the more expensive oil basically gives you incredible cold start properties, and the no vii is awesome for towing as it shouldn't shear down at all.

 

The oil is more expensive, but you can in theory run it longer as well so some of that price cancels out a bit. I wouldn't run a > 5000 OCI (with any engine and oil) without having UOA's performed on the oil to see how its doing and then extend carefully beyond it.

 

As far as I know, HPL is kind of new to the passenger car scene, they were primarily an industrial oil producer and then moved to racing; they're still there, but lately have been offering products for cars and trucks. Formulated by Dr Lesley Rudnick who is very widely respected and has many patents in this industry.

 

https://www.advlubrication.com/collections/automotive-lubricants

[Grumpy Bear]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:39 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

                                        Even the newest DEXOS licensed oils still allow a slow build up over time 

...................................  

AT THE OEM RECOMMENDED OCI's. 

 

It used to be that my primary concern was wear protection. To that end I value viscosity over chemistry and to that end natural viscosity over chemistry. All these things are still important. Kids, the landscape has changed and now cleanliness, especially of the ring pack due to design changes across the board so that these motors 'fail' before they wear out has taken center stage. 

 

Motors "Fail" in the sense of oil control. People have either forgot or are young enough to have no knowledge that oil in a combustion chamber LOWERS FUEL OCTANE and by a bunch. Nothing good happens in an ICE when knock come' s a knocking. Not to mention what happens to O2 sensors and cats. 

 

In a conversation with my sage father this week I asked if he remembered nickel candy bars and seven-ounce sodas. I certainly do and so did he. I asked what a living wage was at that time. $70 a MONTH for 6 and sometimes 7 days a week of 12 hours days! As a young man in the 30's and 40's he worked farms as hired labor and as a horseman. At minimum hours that is 20 cents an hour. Perspective. If he were today to make the enough wage to buy todays $2 candy bar at the same earnings to spending ratio he would have to make..... $80 an hour!! Point! The commercial system has been squeezing the lemon from both ends for decades while we have been focused on one. Same is true with our oils. 

 

It may be true the industry has ACCESS to better base oils and better chemistry. But the bean counters have been backing down faster than science has made advances. Access has not transferred in to USE. Mobil backed off PAO/POE after losing to Castrol and without notifying the public in a public way. Everyone but a handful followed suit. The have developed better VII chemistry. But fail to use them in "licensed' brands. EPA has been putting the squeeze on the amount of antioxidants and wear additives. As these are consumables the OCI's should be falling and yet the recommendations have not. 

 

Cleanliness is a shell game with these people. The goal is not elimination. It is cost effective method to slow it to a point it fails after warranty. They have mis guessed and like GM many are in the courtrooms fighting warranty suits and winning by admitting "DESIGN FLAW". 

 

They have let bean counters push them so close to the edge like lemmings they are now jumping off the cliff. And so are the people following the fear of losing warranty protection over motor protection. 

 

It is a dynamic system with many moving parts and hard to keep track of lies and failings. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Last one then I let this dog sleep awhile.

 

GDI leaves raw fuel and lots of it. (So will badly tunned carburation). Even if the UOA doesn't show large percentages of it the start sequence hoses fuel at it and much of that gets 'boiled out' of the oil. But not before it does what fuels do. Leave shellac deposits during the cool down portion of engine operation. Shellac deposits are not solids until they are (dry) and cannot leave a deposit IF they are held in SOLUTION well below the saturation limit of the solvent and disposed of during oil changes. The more solvent type polar materials there is the longer it last (dissolving and holding). It will hold more of these compounds. Simple really. Dispersants do not work on this crap. If they did you would never see deposits in a motor. D'oh! 

 

Full Synthetic oils are great at slowing oxidation but not worth a flip as a solvent. Group II, II+, III, III+ and Group IV as DRY OILS without a hint of solvency. Blenders add just enough in a carrier oil to keep the add pack in solution and not a nano more. They even have some adds that will disperse in nonpolar bases. The magic of chemistry.

 

As stated earlier and elsewhere, esters in various types are polar solvents. SOME AN's are but not all. Oil soluble PAG's. These ARE NOT blend components of DEXOS Licensed oils. Entry level fluids even from boutique blenders do not contain enough to be useful if any at all.

 

There are some esters not made with conventional materials. Biobased estolides and HOBBS. Some of these are great keeping things clean and some not so much. I don't know enough about this group to have much to say on it. Given the other upsides to estolides it would make a perfect swap for PAO in a PAO/POE blend. No one is doing that now that I know of. Biosynthetic (impressive fleet test result concerning cleanliness) and Renewable Lubricants (RLI)I am watching. 

 

I have not yet personally checked oxidation levels of HPL products nor MPT. The HPL SAE30/40-EC has been tested and is over 100. It has been the heart of my Dizzy engine cleaning project and working well. I'll get to it or see some results of others eventually. For now Red Line HP is the only one I have verification of and proven success with. (as regards cleaning).

 

Ya all have a nice day  

[VicFirth]

To my surprise, the esters used in Red Line do not clean well per Dave Granquist at Red Line.  The cleaning some see may be a result of the high dose of Ca they have historically used.  I can't confirm whether this is true or not, but Dave specifically said they do not use esters that clean well or are known to clean.  Roy Howell would be a better source, but Dave G. would be a close second.

 

HPL uses a lot of AN's which won't give the oxidation spike many are looking for.  They also use select esters that are chosen for high solvency. 

 

Mobil 1 Triple Action is speculated to be using substantial amounts of AN's.  The VOA of that oil is quite interesting.  

 

TBN is also a relic of the past with little value.  The SP oils are showing much greater wear protection than SN+ oils.  As they lowered the detergents (Ca and Mg), less competition on the between anti wear additives improved wear protection.  

 

Among the Mobil 1 line, the ESP and FS 0w40 have been the oils known to clean very well as they contain polar POE base oils. 

 

The latest Mobil 1 Triple Action formulations were born from F1 Racing.  It is rumored they are using substantial AN's.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by TunaFresh