War with IRAQ

Likarok · February 11, 2003

Please remember you guys this is for discussion and I am not trying to start a world debate on who is good and bad. I guess playing devils advocate.

I have noted that in the last few weeks that the anti American sentimete being discussed around the world is increasing. Not only in the obvious places, like the middle east, but in the most unlikely of places, Germany,France, Belgeim....in fact most of Europe. In fact the recent election in Germany was won by a candidate talking anti-American.

Also I noted this mourning after reviewing the news pages that our Prime Minister in Canada (even though I think he is an embarassment to our country) risks having a non-confidence motion in parliment and the downfall or his term if he follows the US and does not allow a parliment vote on supporting the war. No one from this site needs to remind me either of the sad state our Canadian Military has been allowed to go into a state of disrepair. God help us if Iceland invades us.

Also it is noted that Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of England risks the same thing and he has already sent forces to the Gulf Region. Several of his backbenchers from his own party are starting to feel he needs to slow down and have a vote of the English Parliment on this war.

The world knows as well as yourselves that the US is more than capable of wiping out all of Iraq by itself, but to me it is a very scary thing and sets a very dangerous precident if the US does do this without the UN backing. I know the UN process is sickening, and it is so obvious that Saddam is a dick-tater, haha......but if you go in by yourself you are going to have to run the country for years and it is going to cost you bizillions of dollars and NO one is going to feel sorry for you.

And if you have to run Iraq, and keep troops there, think of all the terrorists that are going to be targetting the troops as well as the Homeland. Iraq is no Afganistan.

I have noted that Many of you on this site have a military background, and there is no one on this site that admires you more than I for that background you have. Finally a question, what do you folks feel about the long process that would be involved in going into Iraq, and are you at all worried about world opinion of the US.

Remember, this is for discussion, as a person with American heritage, grandpa was from Oklahoma, don't get all over me please.......

Shaners · February 11, 2003

There is no doubt in my mind we could go this alone.

However I'm worried as to the short and long term consequences if we rush in without our Allies support.

I'm also very concerned about N Korea. Maybe even more than Iraq...

Z71GUY · February 11, 2003

Not sure where to start with this...

I'll make my point quick and simple.

Screw the UN...without us the UN is nothing. Why is it that the UN is all about Iraq but has not stated anything about the other countries that are giving us problems (ie N Korea & Iran). I guess they just assume we will take care of that problem just like everything else. This makes me sick when people from this country actually care what other countries think when OUR country was attacked and OUR fellow people were killed. I guess we should just wait for another attack on our country before we can take action.

Its kinda like this....you damned if you do and damned if you dont when it comes to our VERY liberal media. If President Bush does nothing about Iraq and we are attacked again (with connections to Iraq - whole other arguement) he will be strung out to dry. In the same respect, he is being hammered because he wants to PREVENT another attack by taking out ALL THREATS to our country. Now tell me, what would you rather see?? Prevention or another smoking gun?? Its time for our country to stand up and do everything possible to keep us safe and protect our Freedom.

I find it funny that the media decides to glamour the few countrys that are not with us about Iraq but totally neglect showing the support of the other countrys that ARE with us. I believe there are around 18 countrys that agree Saddam needs to be taken care of. (dont hold me to this number but I know its MUCH more in favor than not) I'll have to do some research and see if I can get a list of countrys backing us.

A small off topic rant: Nothing ticks me off more than when our freakin media refers to our President of the United States as "Bush". God d***it...refer to him as "President Bush", give him some respect!!!

Rant off..

This was not directed to anyong..just general statements.

Elwood · February 11, 2003

Well, I'm for the war with Iraq, but only if we finish it this time, unlike last time. I don't use the reasonong of us being attacked, b/c they haven't proven in black & white that Saddam had anything to do with that (even though we all know that even if he didn't, he wished he did). I'm for it b/c he continues to thumb his nose at the UN sanctions.

As for North Korea, they scare the he!! out of me, but the best thing to do right now is get rid of the threat from Iraq, then worry about them, b/c otherwise we'll get tied up with North Korea and @$$hole Saddam will attack us while we're destracted.

My biggest concern right now is, why in the he!! is there a debate about whether or not NATO should protect Turkey from Iraq?!?!? Isn't that what NATO is for?!?!?!? AND if there is this threat from Iraq, then why is everybody so d@mn worried about whether or not the U.S. should go into Iraq? It would solve one of our problems, AND Turkey's problem.

I do however understand the concern about going in alone and then having to run the country, b/c without the help from the UN it would cost the U.S. billions and billions to run the country for years, and leave us vulnerable in other areas. ANd if we just get rid of Saddam and leave, there will just be another one just like him, or a siuation like Afgahnistan, where a radical group like the Taliban take over.

However, if the UN doesn't agree I think it would be in the U.S. best interest to do it anyway, with the help of whoever will help them. The reward is worth the risk, BUT they should keep trying to get the UN on our side the whole time until it works, even if we're over there fighting.

TxDoc · February 11, 2003

Germany does not want to discuss how they are home to Al Quaeda cells living and planning from within their county. Nor, does France or its investors in oil interests within Iraq, want to invade and lose billions in oil contracts.

According to one Iraqi National Congress leader who favors the creation of a U.S.-led consortium to develop Iraq's oil fields, "American companies will have a big shot at Iraqi oil."

None of this has gone unnoticed by non-American companies from more than a dozen nations - including France, Russia, China, India, Italy, Vietnam, and Algeria - who have oil interests in Iraq. Nervous that a pro-American government in Baghdad might exclude them, representatives of those companies have met with leaders of the Iraqi opposition to make their case for a future stake in a post-Hussein Iraq. Although many of these foreign oil concerns have existing agreements (or have sought to reach agreements in principle) to develop and expand Iraq's oil industry, Iraqi opposition officials have made it clear that they will not be bound by any existing deals.

The most blunt statement comes from former CIA Director Jim Woolsey, a leading advocate of U.S. military action against Iraq: "France and Russia have oil companies and interests in Iraq. They should be told that if they are of assistance in moving Iraq toward decent government, we'll do the best we can to ensure that the new government and American companies work closely with them." Woolsey also said, "If they throw their lot with Saddam, it will be difficult to the point of impossible to persuade the new Iraqi government to work with them."

"Federal prosecutors have announced that a business card found at the Pennsylvania crash site of United Airlines Flight 93 had a handwritten address in Hamburg that a key planner of the Sept. 11 attacks had-called. Zacarias Moussaoui, accused of conspiring in the attacks, called the same number in the weeks before Sept. 11. Prosecutors said the card is powerful circumstantial evidence that ties Mr. Moussaoui to the hijackers; he says he never met them."

"

Authorities Arrest Al Qaeda Suspect in Hamburg

German authorities in Hamburg have arrested a man believed to have assisted the Hamburg-based terrorist cell that, along with a network of other Al Qaeda cells, carried out the September 11 attacks in the United States. Police arrested Abdelghani Mzoudi, 29, on October 10 after an investigation that began last year.

"We have accused him of having been active in the group,? Federal Public Prosecutor Kay Nehm told reporters. ?We have issued the arrest warrant on the firm suspicion of aiding a terrorist organization." According to the prosecutor?s office, Mzoudi had close relationships for many years with Zakariya Essabar, a cell-member wanted on an international arrest warrant, and Mounir Al Mottassadeq, indicted in Germany in August on more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder and with suspicion of membership in a terrorist organization.

Mzoudi was, like other cell members, a student at Hamburg Technical University as well as a roommate of Essabar and of Ramzi Binalshibh, recently arrested in Pakistan in connection with the attacks. Mzoudi knew the targets of the attacks and provided logistical support to the cell, which included three of the eventual hijackers, according to the prosecutor?s office. In the summer of 2000, along with other cell members, Mzoudi spent time in training camps in Afghanistan where the attacks were planned with other parts of the terrorist network. He provided money for the planned flight training of Essabar, which Essabar did not take up because he did not receive permission to enter the US.

Investigations in Germany are continuing, and German authorities are working closely with their US counterparts in both countries. "What we have achieved so far is excellent in international comparison,? Nehm said. ?No other country has come this far."

Germany and US Block Financial Assets of Al Qaeda Suspects

German and U.S. authorities announced Monday (September 30) that they have blocked the financial assets of Ramzi Binalshibh and three other men alleged to have connections to the al Qaeda terrorist network. Binalshibh, one of the alleged planners of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, is now in U.S. custody after having been arrested in Pakistan. The other three individuals whose assets were blocked include Mounir Motassadeq, currently under arrest in Germany, and two men who remain fugitives, Zakariya Essabar and Said Bahaji.

In a statement, the U.S. Treasury Department said that all four men had been implicated in the German investigation of the attacks on New York and Washington and that Germany had already blocked their assets. The four men have been named by German authorities as members of an al Qaeda cell that had operated in Hamburg, Germany. Germany has accused the four of providing support to three of the 19 hijackers who died in the terrorist attacks. "As with most of the important steps taken in the war against terrorist financing, this designation and freezing of assets is the product of international cooperation," the Treasury statement said."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2240867.stm

Europe's hunt for al-Qaeda

By Michael Buchanan

Reporter for BBC Assignment programme

The revelation that the 11 September hijackers had close links with al-Qaeda cells in Europe sparked a hunt for terror suspects across the continent.

One year on and over 800 suspects have been identified, but none convicted. Michael Buchanan reports on the investigators' progress.

The announcement by Germany last week that it was charging a 28-year-old Moroccan, Mounir al-Motassadek, with helping the 11 September hijackers plan their attacks is, on the surface at least, a big breakthrough for European investigators.

Each country has its corresponding terrorism unit, and when they are all called for Islamic jihad they join together and take part

Pedro Rovira, Spanish prosecutor

The federal prosecutor described Mr Motassadek as "a cog without whom the thing would not have worked."

The Moroccan has fiercely denied the allegations and his lawyers said the charges were "thin on evidence".

Only a proper court hearing will of course decide whether Mr Motassadek is guilty or not, but the charges do at least highlight the work European investigators have been doing since 11 September.

University degrees

In Hamburg, home for a while not only to Mr Motassadek but also to a number of the 11 September hijackers, police have introduced a profiling system to try and spot potential militants among the city's large Muslim population.

False documents is as important as weapons

The deputy head of the city's anti-terrorism unit, Andreas Croll, says the key factors in establishing whether someone is likely to be a militant are "their age, the countries they come from, whether they have secure status in Germany and the subjects they study at university."

The system has thrown up 811 suspects so far, but no convictions.

In Italy, meanwhile, where police have foiled a number of attacks they blame on al-Qaeda, the courts have convicted people for what the authorities say were al-Qaeda related activities.

Earlier this year, four men were sent to prison for producing false documents. The investigations carried out in Italy suggest that producing false identification papers is a major task for al-Qaeda.

Milan's prosecutor of terrorism cases Stephano Dambruoso, says he was surprised by the importance al-Qaeda placed on producing false passports.

"We discovered that for them, the purchasing and finding of false documents was really important, as important as finding weapons and guns," says Mr Dambruoso.

Open borders

What has also become very apparent to investigators is how al-Qaeda uses Europe's internal open borders to organise different parts of their activities in different countries, and then come together for the final operation.

Pedro Rovira, the prosecutor in Spain responsible for trying to convict the country's 15 al-Qaeda suspects, says the way they operate remind him of Europe's premier football tournament, the Champions League.

"That is to say, each country has its corresponding terrorism unit. And when they are all called for Islamic jihad they join together and take part", says Mr Rovira.

Without conviction

The European investigations into al-Qaeda have spanned at least 8 different countries. Millions of dollars have been invested and scores of people have been arrested and questioned.

But the fact remains that since September 11, no-one has been convicted of direct al-Qaeda involvement in Europe.

The authorities undoubtedly know a lot more about the group than they did a year ago.

But with that knowledge has come even more questions, and a gnawing fear that Europe could well be the target of the next major al-Qaeda attack.

Likarok · February 11, 2003

Sorry for such a heavy topic....you all raise great points and I respect all of them...Thanks

One more from me......We need to keep China and Russia working on North Korea and hold them responsable on the world stage for what happens in NK.....NK is the result of their goof ball communist crap from the late 40's early 50's.

It's tuff for you folks being the world cops....but thank god it is you!

President Bush needs to remind the world of his statement after 9-11...when he said "Either you are with us or you are against us"

Elwood · February 11, 2003

None of this has gone unnoticed by non-American companies from more than a dozen nations - including France, Russia, China, India, Italy, Vietnam, and Algeria - who have oil interests in Iraq. Nervous that a pro-American government in Baghdad might exclude them, representatives of those companies have met with leaders of the Iraqi opposition to make their case for a future stake in a post-Hussein Iraq.

All the more reason for these countries to go into this with us. The UN is responsible for regulating the World Economy. If these countries went with us, they would have the UN to help keep them from getting left out, plus the fact that they contributed. If they let the U.S. do all the work, they should expect nothing out it.

SnakeEyeSS · February 12, 2003

You guys hear about the British paper today?Front page, something like: "Does Germany, France, and the rest of Europe not remember who saved Europe during WWII?"

Shaners · February 12, 2003

You guys hear about the British paper today?Front page, something like: "Does Germany, France, and the rest of Europe not remember who saved Europe during WWII?"

Yeah I saw it...

I believe they are all "fence sitters", and if/when we go to war they will have to jump off the fence onto our side because of the lucrative oil contracts they all have with Iraq. If they were ballsy enough to accept the oil embargo (which they weren't) then they would already be supportive of a Mission in Iraq. But since they have found Iraq to be a cheap source for their oil they don't want any turmoil in the region.

I will support whatever our President deems necessary. (I'm still torn on the idea of a war, but I will still support the USA )

TheScaryGuy · February 12, 2003

The war isn't what scares the $hit out of me. Its the aftermath. The middle east is a volital place. They really won't like us (a christian state) imposing our will on an Islamic country. Its not if we go to war anymore, its when. Definatly during march, since the temp in Iraq rises 10 degrees every month after march and its already 85. So if the hawks are going in, they need to now. This war isn't what the world wants due to the fact that China, Russia, France, and Germany have billions invested in the madman, as we do. But they will all join in after we takeover so that they can get their cut of the cake after we take him out. We already get 4% of our oil from Iraq. (12 million a day)

The rest comes from Ven., the Saudi's and turkey I believe.

The whole going before the UN is a total show for us. World politics is a funny thing that we discuss in my Current Events class all the time. Its funny how we consider ourselves police all the time. We are very good at protecting American interests and our investors interests. Thats why I disagree with everyone who protests war at my brother in laws base. I'd like to hit them with my truck, honestly like those young boys have any say in fact that we are going to war.

I support everything we do internationally no matter what, no matter how I sound at times. I may not agree but I figure even though he didn't get the popular vote he is our president. I'd really like to know more than a good ol southern boy "Trust me, we know more than you know" Seeing as how china helped Saddam build his near untappable fiber optic communication lines under most of his country now I dont really see how they could know more than what defectors tell them.......

Bush isn't the man who scares me. Its Rumsfeld and Cheney. Rich men making war for the poor to fight.

sincityZ71 · February 12, 2003

Italy's Berlusconi urges Europe to unite with U.S. on Iraq

Thu Feb 6,11:15 AM ET

ROME - Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi urged Europe on Thursday not to oppose the United States in dealing with Iraq, saying the world was facing its most serious crisis since World War II.

The conservative Berlusconi — one of the Bush administration's strongest European allies — addressed parliament Thursday to explain his government's attitude toward a possible U.S.-led action against Saddam Hussein.

"This is certainly the gravest crisis on the international scene from the end of the war until today," Berlusconi said.

"Europe cannot be disconnected or opposed to the United States," he said.

France and Germany have both made clear that they oppose a swift military action against Iraq, preferring the extension of U.N. weapons inspections.

U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair have been trying to rally a firm coalition against Saddam, although attempts to gain support from the French and Germans have so far fallen short.

Berlusconi insisted Thursday that "we don't want war, but neither will we hide our head under the sand."

He expressed hope that the United Nations would take the lead against Iraq, "assuming its responsibilities that fall to it for its commitment to peace ... If necessary, authorizing force with a new resolution, the measured use of force."

Leftist opposition members strongly oppose Berlusconi's position on Iraq, and several disrupted his speech, shouting anti-war slogans and waving a peace flag.

Head of the lower Chamber of Deputies, Pier Ferdinando Casini, briefly halted the session, and expelled parliament member Paolo Cento of the Green party, a determined anti-war activist.

Lol...I find that last part quite funny...kicked a lefty parliament member out for protesting the war...haha. I am glad to hear that the Italians have thrown in their support of us. This Italian Premier has been very supportive of the US since he has been in office. :thumb:

So that means we have the support of the UK, Australia, Italia, Spain, Portugal, and a few other European and S. American countries. Good enough for me.

As for the U.N., in the long run, I really don't give a #### what they think...worthless body IMO. If it were up to me as Pres. I would tell them to #### off, take their dues we supposedly "owe" them and shove them up their ass, then kick them the #### off of our soil and tell them to find a new home somewhere else...we have given them the blood of our people (along with many other countries) on many occasions, we owe them nothing, and if they can't show us the respect we deserve for what we have given them, #### them...As you can see I don't like the UN that much...

As for the NATO crisis, I hope that gets resolved, because NATO is a great alliance that we should not allow to disappear due to a little disagreement...

99silveradoz71 · February 12, 2003

Screw the UN...without us the UN is nothing. This makes me sick when people from this country actually care what other countries think when OUR country was attacked and OUR fellow people were killed. I guess we should just wait for another attack on our country before we can take action.

Its kinda like this....you damned if you do and damned if you dont when it comes to our VERY liberal media. If President Bush does nothing about Iraq and we are attacked again (with connections to Iraq - whole other arguement) he will be strung out to dry. In the same respect, he is being hammered because he wants to PREVENT another attack by taking out ALL THREATS to our country. I find it funny that the media decides to glamour the few countrys that are not with us about Iraq but totally neglect showing the support of the other countrys that ARE with us.

A small off topic rant: Nothing ticks me off more than when our freakin media refers to our President of the United States as "Bush". God d***it...refer to him as "President Bush", give him some respect!!!

I agree with you on several points. The media likes to put their slant on things as always.

bummed-n-Md · February 12, 2003

Think back to the League of Nations. The precurser of the UN as an attempt for a "world body". The US refused to be a part of it. It died a quick death. One of the reasons the UN still exists after all these years is US involvement.

There is an old saying that the ones who hate war the most are the ones who have to fight it. However, they are the same ones who know that at times it must be done which is the reason they are there.

Soap box Time:

:arrow: You hear many countries denigrating the US, but do ANY of those refuse our money or help in times of need (or not)? When we send in educators, peace corps volunters, rescue people (military or otherwise) and others, do you hear complaints or refusals.

No.

They complain about the US only when it serves their purposes.

Next topic:

:arrow: Is big business involved? Any one who doesn't think so is blind, stupid or both. Big business is the underlying foundation of world economy. The current state of world economy is one reason most of the world's population enjoys the life they now have (fundamentalist and radical leader countries excluded) If Iraqi oil is the resource, and France doesn't help, their companies may loose out to the US oil companies. Oh well, so sorry, bad business decision on your part. Could mean our gas prices go down and theirs go up (is this a bad thing?). However, business goes on.

Next topic:

:arrow: I look at anything the press/media puts out with a jaundiced eye. They, for the most part, report that which is going to get them the biggest market share (which means they can charge higher advertising rates which means higher profits) . Remember, the media/press is also big business.

off the soap box.

One of the biggest things the world has against the US is our freedoms, those that hate us the most are some of the biggest repressors of those freedoms in their own countries. Why? Because they would not be able to stay in power otherwise.

I wholeheartedly support all of this extremely candid conversation about going to war with or without support and whether or not we should even go.

BUT

Once the decision is made to do so, we should stand behind the decsions 100%. The rethoric may and should continue, but never should the support for men and women in uniform faulter.

Semper Fi,

bummed.

MSgt, USMC Retired.

99silveradoz71 · February 13, 2003

The rethoric may and should continue, but never should the support for men and women in uniform faulter.

Absolutely agree.

Likarok · February 13, 2003

Try and litten this up.......was looking at CNN just now, I am sure most of you have seen the picture of the Iraqi troops/women/kids whatever they are marching in their white uniforms. I just realized how appropreate that is.......they already have something white to wave when they surrender in mass like they did last time. haha

I have another idea to for Germany and France and Russia. If they think the US is being to hard nosed about this issue maybe Schroeder, Putin and the french dick whatever his name is, should all fly to Bagdad and I am sure they can all talk their calm and level headed buddy Saddam into baking down. They will probably think this is a good idea and at the same time they can take along more offers to stock up the Iraqis with new military hardware.......since that is were most of their junk came from in the first place.