Towing question? I am confused

nards444 · April 17, 2014

Actually, I am an Engineer, but you don't need to be one to know this isn't even a question, a little experience is sufficient. It will do better. Without testing them yourself there are plenty of published tests and reviews that reflect that. The only question is whether or not the difference matters that much to you. If you aren't going to be towing anything heavy and don't live near any mountains, or maybe you just don't mind taking things a little slower when required, it probably isn't.

I think part of the problem was what I realized later--looking at different manuals gives you different numbers depending upon when it was published as it looks like they've been changing the numbers.

The only other thing I see wrong with your numbers is it looks like you're adding the tongue weight into the GCWR twice. That's not correct. The GCWR is the total weight of the truck and total weight of the trailer. It'll be the same before and after you hook them up if they're on the same scale. You don't count the tongue weight to the weight of the truck and to the weight of the trailer--it can't be two places at once.

You do count the tongue weight into your payload to make sure you're not exceeding the GVWR (7200 lbs for most of these IIRC).

So in your example, a trailer 11,800 lbs would have a tongue weight of 1180 (10% industry standard). 7200-5400-1180=620 lbs left over for passengers/cargo before exceeding GVW. So if you loaded it up to that, you'd have a total truck weight of 5400+620=6020 leaving space for the tongue weight.

6020+11800= 17820 GCWR. So, you're 120 lbs over your GCWR. So yes, you're right, you can't load it to the hilt and still pull your max trailer weight without exceeding something, but it's not really that far off.

I have said from the start that the 6.2l would probabyl tow better, how much better, now I did question that and did say it depends on the guy that needed. From the average joe takes his family out camping 5 times a year an hour away little to no hills, there probably isnt a huge advantage for him and he would be waisting money.

I may have doubled it at some point, if I did my mistake, your right the tongue weight goes into the weight of the truck one time only.(note your example is off you used the weight of the 5.3l, add 200lbs for the 6.2l and you bust by 300lbs from the start) Thats my point though your already over the GCWR without even putting bodies into the truck or gear if the tow item is at max, now thats according to published data and again if so choose to beleive it. But like I said from the start put 3-4 people in the truck with gear and towing 11,800 you could easily bust your GCWR by close to a ton and your going to be overloaded on payload as well, which I would agree the standards might be fluffed, but a ton over whats reccomended at least for me is pushing it. But this is why payload and the truck its self matters and why 3/4 tons and up can tow more and not necessarily due to engine. When it comes down to towing or at least ratings, its all about payload, now how efficient you can do that the engine comes into play. And I will say again engine matters, but its not the whole equation so agree with you.

Really back to the formula though you dont even have to worry about tongue weight to know where you sit, truck weighs 5400, trailer weighs 11,800, your at 17,200. Which means you have 600lbs for tongue, and people, never will happen. And thats all without a bag for moms shoes and 30 rack of millter lite, etc. So if you are going by the numbers and forget engine forget brand any half ton will do. You really can not tow to the max capacity as stated by most brands the true numbers is roughly 10-15% less than what they state. Which goes back for your push for better standards and less confusing in numbers I totally agree with you.

But people also need to stop being sheepish and walking into these dealers and walking out with keys thinking they can tow 12 grand, but it doesnt surprise me the amount of people I see at the boat launch, at pit stops, have no clue what their trailer or boat weighs, or they'll say I got 400hp or something stupid. Ive even have come across guys who dont even know what sized engine is in their truck, they dont know if they have a V8 or V6, crazy.

Jon A · April 17, 2014

But like I said from the start put 3-4 people in the truck with gear and towing 11,800 you could easily bust your GCWR by close to a ton

You’re assuming 1700 lbs of gear?

Really back to the formula though you dont even have to worry about tongue weight to know where you sit, truck weighs 5400, trailer weighs 11,800, your at 17,200. Which means you have 600lbs for tongue, and people, never will happen. If you have a 1000 tongue weight trailer even with two people, your really looking at towing right around 10,900, 11k lbs and thats stripped down, reality is probably closer to a 10-10,500 trailer. Because two people averaging 350lbs + 6400(truck and tongue)= 6750 which in turn tells you you can have a 10,950 trailer. ANd thats all without a bag, 30 rack of millter lite, etc.

Again, you’re doing it wrong. You’re adding the 1000 lb tongue weight into the number twice. This means you’re off by 1000 lbs. 1000 lbs is a lot of Miller Lite.

Look, nobody thinks you can load down a vehicle to the hilt, and still expect to pull the heaviest trailer it’s capable of. That’s a given, everybody knows that. You generally try not to do both things at once.

But your statements that these vehicles simply can’t be used to pull the trailer size they’re rated for, due to your incorrect math that knocks the GCWR down 1000-1200 lbs lower than published, are not remotely accurate.

redwngr · April 18, 2014

And just to confuse things more, it's also necessary to be sure not to the rated capacity of any individual axle.

nards444 · April 18, 2014

You’re assuming 1700 lbs of gear?

No not assuming, just offering an a real world example, or potential. 1700lbs also factored in people weight. But if your getting close to 1700lbs your also getting close to payload max as well.

No I know I was adding the extra grand in there and I edited that you were right.. My point is this take the truck empty 5400 no tongue weight added plus your 11,800 trailer/boat or what have you. your at 17,200, which gives you 500lbs to spare, before you put your cell phone in the car. Logically if it was just you and maybe your wife, you could do it but you would be right up at the quote breaking point unquote of payload and gross carrying weight, can you do it sure. But real world you would more than likely bust that number as 500lbs is a lot but it adds up quickly.

Alot of guys forget too, adding, bigger tires, exhaust, tool box, bull guards. side steps, all these things add weight. I would guestimate most guys probably have a residual 50-100lbs added to their truck just in tow straps, whats in the glove box etc.

I think we have established the formula and what you can and cant do per published data and were getting in the weeds. The logical thing would be to match up your needs to what can feasibly do it. Its also wise to take the guessing game out of things and go to scales if you are going to be pushing your rig to the limits. Because people will say its just a couple of bags. I remember when I was in army I went to weigh my car to get paid for travel and I had just a couple of bags car wasnt loaded and I was just under 200lbs. The difference in car empty and with a few bags and me in it was 350lbs. So i adds up.

nards444 · April 18, 2014

And just to confuse things more, it's also necessary to be sure not to the rated capacity of any individual axle.

Thats another good point. Also you must look at your receiver and also look at your hitch. A lot of guys buy those walmart hitches that only have a 5-6k limit.

Another thing to think about is tires. most half tons come with load range C or an equivalent. If your doing some heavy duty work it might be wise to bump up to load range D maybe even E. Now I might be wrong but I also thought adding adding the factory 20in rims killed towing as well, which I think with max tow you cant add them.

14'SilveradoLT · April 18, 2014

Man there is a lot of information in here...I'm just thrilled that I have 1620lbs of payload available with my 20s.

My F150 EB 4x4 with 3.55's and 20's was rated at 1270lbs payload. The "book" said I could tow like 9400lbs or something.....there was no freaking way that I could pull anything heavier 6500lbs and not be over payload. They rated it for 10% tongue weight which would be a very crappy towing experience.

The rear axle on my new truck is 3950....the f150 did have 4050lb rating. I don't think I'll have an issue towing a TT at around 7500 lb wet. I do wish I would've found a 3.73 rear end though.

nards444 · April 18, 2014

Man there is a lot of information in here...I'm just thrilled that I have 1620lbs of payload available with my 20s.

My F150 EB 4x4 with 3.55's and 20's was rated at 1270lbs payload. The "book" said I could tow like 9400lbs or something.....there was no freaking way that I could pull anything heavier 6500lbs and not be over payload. They rated it for 10% tongue weight which would be a very crappy towing experience.

The rear axle on my new truck is 3950....the f150 did have 4050lb rating. I don't think I'll have an issue towing a TT at around 7500 lb wet. I do wish I would've found a 3.73 rear end though.

Really be nice if something like J2807 was actually put into practice. Reason it wont though is wide speculation is that it will reduce towing ratings and some of them up to 1000lbs. So I dont see it happening unless its mandated by the government.

Jon A · April 18, 2014

But real world you would more than likely bust that number as 500lbs is a lot but it adds up quickly. .

But again, you're assuming things. There are an infinite number of things people might want to tow, and reasons they might want to tow them. Not every time somebody tows something does it mean he's going on a vacation with his entire extended family and all their crap. Sometimes, sure, but using cargo he might take on that trip as a standard limiting everybody else all the time is not correct.

If I want to take four horses from one side of the range to the other, it'll be me, the horses and the trailer (and maybe a kid to open gates). If I want to haul a car from one state to another, it's not something my wife would enjoy, so it'll be me, the car and the trailer.... Will there be times I'm loaded to (or beyond) capacity limiting the max towing number? Sure, but that's not what the rating is supposed to reflect. That's why you have the other numbers.

I think we have established the formula and what you can and cant do per published data and were getting in the weeds. The logical thing would be to match up your needs to what can feasibly do it.

I agree.

Its also wise to take the guessing game out of things and go to scales if you are going to be pushing your rig to the limits. Because people will say its just a couple of bags.

Yes, a very good idea. But also one that illustrates just how academic this discussion is. I'd venture to guess around 99% of pickups used for personal/recreational use are never put on a scale by anybody for any reason ever. Maybe a whole 1% goes the extra mile and actually scales things to make sure his trailer is set up correctly.

But for the most part, it's rough ballpark estimates and as long as the bumper isn't scraping on the ground, they're good to go. I see frightening number of pickups cruising down the freeway that actually do have their bumpers nearly scraping the ground (especially in the summertime). My best advice is don't be that guy! Of course nobody who cares enough to read this thread is going to be that guy. If one stays reasonably close to the numbers on the sticker and uses some common sense he's unlikely to every have a problem. When a load is too much for a vehicle to the point of being unsafe, it's generally pretty easy to feel it when driving. Lighten the load, get a bigger vehicle, modify the vehicle, etc, is only common sense--it's the guy who ignores that or is too oblivious to notice you need to watch out for.

Alot of guys forget too, adding, bigger tires, exhaust, tool box, bull guards. side steps, all these things add weight.

That is a very good point. That's what would kill me if I took the ratings more seriously. Camper shell, 250 lbs? Cargoglide, that thing must weigh 250 at least. I was sore for a week after putting that thing in. And that's "empty." While I don't plan to be towing 10,000 or more very often, if ever, (more commonly 7-8000) I'll probably be breaking that payload capacity number quite often when I go to the track. Frankly, with Bilsteins and airbags, I'm just not going to sweat a couple hundred pounds either way. In reality, it's just not going to matter. Of course I can't recommend anybody else to that, but I'll sleep just fine, thank you. ;)

Jon A · April 18, 2014

My F150 EB 4x4 with 3.55's and 20's was rated at 1270lbs payload.

Yeah, these new GM's are pretty good compared with the others. The Rams all seem to top out at 6800 GVW which really hurts their payload capacity as well (some only rated to about 1000 lbs). Now don't get me wrong, despite what I said above, those numbers do have some value. If something is rated that low there's probably a good reason for it. There's a big difference between exceeding something by a couple hundred pounds or so...and a thousand!

Jon A · April 18, 2014

Really be nice if something like J2807 was actually put into practice. Reason it wont though is wide speculation is that it will reduce towing ratings and some of them up to 1000lbs. So I dont see it happening unless its mandated by the government.

I think there’s a chance they will for ½ tons at least. Ford says they will with the new F-150, so we’ll see. If they do I expect GM will immediately do it for their ½ tons (I’m sure they’ve already done the tests and have numbers ready to go). Ram will probably follow fairly soon after that. It shouldn’t be that big a deal for half tons, some numbers might even go up.

I don’t know about the HD’s though. That’s where the numbers could be reduced dramatically. At some point you run into a physics problem in the braking tests (they already get easier requirements for the hillclimb speed, etc). A big diesel engine, big axle and stiff springs doesn’t make something stop more quickly—bigger brakes don’t even help when it’s traction limited. I’m not sure if some of those trucks are actually going to be able to pass some of the tests with 20,000+ lb trailers. The tests are done with no trailer brakes.

They changed the spec from being recommended for all vehicles under 16,000 GVW to 13,000 GVW I think specifically for that reason—to exclude the requirement for the heaviest pickups. So it’ll be interesting to see what they do.

redwngr · April 19, 2014

I think there’s a chance they will for ½ tons at least. Ford says they will with the new F-150, so we’ll see. If they do I expect GM will immediately do it for their ½ tons (I’m sure they’ve already done the tests and have numbers ready to go). Ram will probably follow fairly soon after that. It shouldn’t be that big a deal for half tons, some numbers might even go up.

I don’t know about the HD’s though. That’s where the numbers could be reduced dramatically. At some point you run into a physics problem in the braking tests (they already get easier requirements for the hillclimb speed, etc). A big diesel engine, big axle and stiff springs doesn’t make something stop more quickly—bigger brakes don’t even help when it’s traction limited. I’m not sure if some of those trucks are actually going to be able to pass some of the tests with 20,000+ lb trailers. The tests are done with no trailer brakes.

They changed the spec from being recommended for all vehicles under 16,000 GVW to 13,000 GVW I think specifically for that reason—to exclude the requirement for the heaviest pickups. So it’ll be interesting to see what they do.

When this was talked about publicly during the NAIIAS in Detroit this year GM did indicate that if ford went this way they would as well.

For sure they all know exactly what the ratings are for their vehicles using the SAE standard - and could publish tomorrow if they so desired.

Jon , any idea where the SAE standard is publically available without an SAE subscription?

Jon A · April 19, 2014

Jon , any idea where the SAE standard is publically available without an SAE subscription?

No, I couldn't find it floating around anywhere. I'm a member and still had to pay for it. I'm sure if it's adopted by the big three there will be dozens of magazine articles that detail every test in it to the nth degree. In my opinion it's far from perfect, but infinitely better than what they're doing now. And as mentioned before, I believe it's already responsible for very real and substantial design improvements we're already enjoying with these new trucks.

Now I might be wrong but I also thought adding adding the factory 20in rims killed towing as well, which I think with max tow you cant add them.

Just a point of clarification, the 20" rims are actually a required part of the max tow package with most models, I'm not sure if it's currently the case with every model.

seamonster · April 19, 2014

20 inch rims are required with the 6.2 and Max tow package however with

the 5.3 and Max tow package you can get 18's. I cant imagine towing heavy

with those short sidewalls but they are "rated" for it. I wish they would put

LT tires on the the trucks with the max tow package instead of the P rated

tires. I changed to them on my last truck and it made a huge difference, but it

also cost me some MPG. Not sure if it was the tread pattern or the heavier

rated tire that caused the drop in MPG but it was worth it. I do tow about

9K lbs with my 2007 1/2 with max towing(6.0 with 4:10's) along with the heavier

axle/brakes, transmission and cooling that were part of the max tow package.

The max towing package is considerably different the the regular " towing package

that includes a hitch and wiring on the current trucks.

I would not be afraid to tow it anywhere----it tows

great is very stable and never heats up.

Also make sure if towing somthing large you have the correct sway control and weight

distributing equipment these are just as important as the tow vehicle. This is true for 3/4 trucks

also.

nards444 · April 21, 2014

Just a point of clarification, the 20" rims are actually a required part of the max tow package with most models, I'm not sure if it's currently the case with every model.

Sea monster is right, if you have the 5.3 you get 18s upgraded from 20s..

Now whats funny is I believe when I built my truck and ordered when I was looking through brochures or online if I added 20's to the 5.3 it did have a disclaimer that it would diminish tow capacity. So I wonder if you put 18s on the 6.2 you would get more. But Like sea monster said with those thin side walls on the 20's would make me nervous as well towing close to max.

But again, you're assuming things. There are an infinite number of things people might want to tow, and reasons they might want to tow them. Not every time somebody tows something does it mean he's going on a vacation with his entire extended family and all their crap. Sometimes, sure, but using cargo he might take on that trip as a standard limiting everybody else all the time is not correct.

If I want to take four horses from one side of the range to the other, it'll be me, the horses and the trailer (and maybe a kid to open gates). If I want to haul a car from one state to another, it's not something my wife would enjoy, so it'll be me, the car and the trailer.... Will there be times I'm loaded to (or beyond) capacity limiting the max towing number? Sure, but that's not what the rating is supposed to reflect. That's why you have the other numbers

No i agree and your right, you have to look into what your doing. How far you going what you doing etc. I was more or less speaking on the guy thats doing the average, which more than likely is 2-4 people a dog etc.

nards444 · April 21, 2014

Man there is a lot of information in here...I'm just thrilled that I have 1620lbs of payload available with my 20s.

My F150 EB 4x4 with 3.55's and 20's was rated at 1270lbs payload. The "book" said I could tow like 9400lbs or something.....there was no freaking way that I could pull anything heavier 6500lbs and not be over payload. They rated it for 10% tongue weight which would be a very crappy towing experience.

The rear axle on my new truck is 3950....the f150 did have 4050lb rating. I don't think I'll have an issue towing a TT at around 7500 lb wet. I do wish I would've found a 3.73 rear end though.

see whats funny is I had the F150 with max tow and the eco and I was sitting at 2020payload. But im assuming you had the crew cab, no max tow and the 3.55 gearing put you there. None the less a 1200lb payload on a half ton sucks.