Towing question? I am confused

[kurtg2020]

 

Like I said before you shouldnt be towing close to 12k with a half ton regardless of stickers your right and thats reality. But in general you have to get ratings somewhere and a baseline has to be established of which I do trust engineers who designed it to put out information, but what isnt trustworthy is how the numbers are marketed. This isnt a dog on you, but Im not sure we can necessarily trust what ones opinion is on the capability vs published data by engineers. But we all know those numbers are dumbed down by companies for legal speek and that because not everybody can handle towing at max, and conditions dont always warrant it, but how far they dumbed down who knows, they are dumbed down in order to keep your vehicle from breaking and manufactures footing repair bills by pushing things to the max.

 

A 6.2 will out tow a 5.3 it will but it still weighs the same and still has the same breaking, tranny and rear end, and thats what towing is really about not necessarily hp and torque. If were going to reality your better off buying that 6.2l in a 3/4 if your going to push that 1/2ton to the limits as a 3/4ton can be had for the same price, and kick in a few more bucks you can be in a diesel which will leave the 6.2l in the dust.

 

Im not sure throwing a 6.2l and adding 60hp and 60torque in the grand scheme is giving you much more in the cost benefit column as like I said its still a half ton. I know some guys tow a lot but typical towing is less than 10% of annual miles. Do the math on initial investment, MPG difference vs what you are getting for the average guy the equation just doesnt work.

I wanted to tell you that this is one of the most true posts that I have ever seen in a forum. It is nice to see a person who understands it and can explain it especially the last paragraph. I don't tow anything large, so to me its not an issue, but I wanted to say thank you for helping. Keep up the good work sir!

[[email protected]]

Just to add to the GCVWR.....thats a manufacturers recommendation. You get pulled over by DOT, they will not be pulling out your owners manual to check the GCVWR. They will however check what the axle ratings (GAWR) are, which relate your GVWR for your truck and the axle ratings for the trailer you are towing.

 

The truck has a 7200lb GVWR which includes tongue weight, family, firewood etc, already explained.

 

The trailer has a set GVWR as well, look inside one of the cupboards on RVs or the tongue of boat trailers etc. As long as truck is under and trailer is under youre golden. A trailer with a 10000lb GVWR is designed to do the work for itself (ie carrying the weight and a large portion of braking)

 

I'm not coming from left field with this. Ive been through many DOT scales both commercially and recreational.

 

Manual says 9600lb max trailer, sure, probably shouldnt go over. But ask the guys that are hotshotting 25-30,000 loads with a truck stating max trailer weight of 210000 for example.

 

Go to your truck and in the drivers door frame you will see GAWR front and rear and GVWR. You will not find GCVWR anywhere except the manual where it is a manufactures recommendation. Each manufacturer can technically determine this however they choose as there is no standard being used by every auto maker.

 

.....just to create more chatter.....

[Jon A]

 

But in general you have to get ratings somewhere and a baseline has to be established of which I do trust engineers who designed it to put out information,

 

But again, those numbers don't come from the Engineers. Engineers like numbers that mean something. Standards to which items can be tested (because otherwise they wouldn't mean much, would they?). They advocate things like using SAE J2807 to come up with more meaningful numbers, but so far none of the big three do (although that may change soon, at least for light duties).

 

 

A 6.2 will out tow a 5.3 it will but it still weighs the same and still has the same breaking, tranny and rear end, and thats what towing is really about not necessarily hp and torque...

 

The correct way to look at it is a 5.3 has the same brakes, etc, as a 6.2 rated to tow 12,000, so it has more than it should ever need. HP and torque matter a lot, especially if the trucks brakes, etc, are easily up to the task. If you tow a heavy load up and down steep mountain passes, you'll find the brakes are just fine--hardly breaking a sweat. The engine, on the other hand, it'll leave much to be desired.

 

 

Im not sure throwing a 6.2l and adding 60hp and 60torque in the grand scheme is giving you much more in the cost benefit column as like I said its still a half ton.

 

Who is talking about cost/benefit? Nobody buys a brand new luxury truck for occasional towing because it wins in that area--not even close. If that's what's important, buy a 20 year old Cummins. It'll get the job done very cheaply, but there's certainly nothing "enjoyable" about towing with one of those very long, or driving it in daily use.

 

 

If were going to reality your better off buying that 6.2l in a 3/4 if your going to push that 1/2ton to the limits as a 3/4ton can be had for the same price, and kick in a few more bucks you can be in a diesel which will leave the 6.2l in the dust.

 

You can't. The 6.2 is not available in a 3/4 ton. You're stuck with the 6.0 which is a dog in comparison. If you want a 3/4 ton that will actually pull better you need the Duramax. An extra $12K or so for occasional towing of light/medium weight trailers looks dramatically worse in the cost/benefit column.

 

 

Heres the thing with the 6.2l dodge doesnt make an equivalent well maybe in the hemi but not really. Ford is ditching theres, as it shows the manufacture as well as their customer base has determined the application for the cost doesnt make any sense. And not to get on Fords high horse, but if they think somethings working, I would to believe it.

 

If Ford's 6.2 was even on the same planet as GM's as far as emissions, mileage, overall torque curve and weight, that comparison would have some validity. But it's not.

 

And I hate to throw it out there and being mr scare tactic but get pulled over by the DOT nazis or get into a crash and have insurance or law enforcement start to investigate what you were towing and what with. They are not going to take my personal belief on what a truck can do vs published data

 

Yes, and this is very important because this happens ALL THE TIME!...........on the Internet.

 

Without even beginning that conversation, you said 1/2 tons shouldn't even be used within their tow rating (not even close to 12,000 lbs no matter what the sticker says, even though some 1/2 tons are rated for that). Speaking of trusting someone's opinion (you just said we shouldn't do that), upon what do you base that? Even if their current numbers aren't the most meaningful, why do you think you know better than they do? If/when one passes all the tests of SAE J2807 with a weight close to that, will you stand by the same opinion? Based upon what?

 

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being conservative with loading your vehicle, that's not my point. My point was I think many people should put a little less faith in numbers that aren't very meaningful, and rely on their own brains a little more. Especially right now, when all the numbers may change significantly very soon if the big three do adopt J2807 for their ratings.

 

You may buy a vehicle right now with a big number on the sticker, only to find next year's model has a much smaller number--even with no mechanical changes to the vehicle! And a different truck you may have liked a little better but it had a little smaller number on the sticker...it might get a bigger number, again, with no changes!

 

I'm just trying to advise people to use their heads a little in the decision making process and think about things that are really going to make a difference in the real world vs. treating the current ratings as gospel when they're largely a joke. If the big three do finally adopt J2807 in the coming years, then it will be a different conversation. While they still won't quite be gospel, at least then the numbers will be based on some very real capabilities and should be comparable from manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

While there will be nothing preventing manufacturers from purposely under-rating specific vehicles to give more advertising wiggle room in the future, you can have confidence none are going to be over-rated. Actually hooking up a trailer and passing all those tests with the vehicle will mean one can be pretty confident the vehicle really can handle that number on the sticker pretty well. That'll be a big improvement from where we are now.

 

Though they aren't using the standard for ratings yet, we are already reaping many benefits from the effort behind J2807. The large brakes, effective grade braking, standard fluid coolers, really stout hitch, etc, are evidence manufacturers are already building the trucks to pass those tests--which means we're getting much more capable trucks, even if the bogus numbers on the stickers don't necessarily reflect it.

[Jon A]

 

Manual says 9600lb max trailer, sure, probably shouldnt go over. But ask the guys that are hotshotting 25-30,000 loads with a truck stating max trailer weight of 210000 for example.

 

 

Yes, and I believe that's one of the biggest reasons the big three have been draggin their feet adopting J2807--many of their HD ratings will drop significantly. Toyota doesn't make any HD's so it wasn't a worry for them as it'll probably only change the ratings of 1/2 tons a few hundred lbs. When GM was in the process of adopting it in 2013 before pulling the plug, some of their HD models were having ratings go down several thousand lbs. You can see why the marketing guys freaked.

[nards444]

Just to add to the GCVWR.....thats a manufacturers recommendation. You get pulled over by DOT, they will not be pulling out your owners manual to check the GCVWR. They will however check what the axle ratings (GAWR) are, which relate your GVWR for your truck and the axle ratings for the trailer you are towing.

 

The truck has a 7200lb GVWR which includes tongue weight, family, firewood etc, already explained.

 

The trailer has a set GVWR as well, look inside one of the cupboards on RVs or the tongue of boat trailers etc. As long as truck is under and trailer is under youre golden. A trailer with a 10000lb GVWR is designed to do the work for itself (ie carrying the weight and a large portion of braking)

 

I'm not coming from left field with this. Ive been through many DOT scales both commercially and recreational.

 

Manual says 9600lb max trailer, sure, probably shouldnt go over. But ask the guys that are hotshotting 25-30,000 loads with a truck stating max trailer weight of 210000 for example.

 

Go to your truck and in the drivers door frame you will see GAWR front and rear and GVWR. You will not find GCVWR anywhere except the manual where it is a manufactures recommendation. Each manufacturer can technically determine this however they choose as there is no standard being used by every auto maker.

 

.....just to create more chatter.....

really all they have to do is look at the door jamb like you said. Unless waived into the scales more than likely the officer is going to eye ball test you, if it stinks hes going to investigate and find out which probably means going through data panels and book, otherwise off to the scales you go.

 

I know people hem and haw, but on I90 in NY its actually pretty common for you to get a DOT nazis to pull you over if you have something more than a utility trailer behind you

[nards444]

 

But again, those numbers don't come from the Engineers. Engineers like numbers that mean something. Standards to which items can be tested (because otherwise they wouldn't mean much, would they?). They advocate things like using SAE J2807 to come up with more meaningful numbers, but so far none of the big three do (although that may change soon, at least for light duties).

The numbers dont come from engineers at all? Numbers are just picked off a dart board? Like I said I understand the politics of all involved, its still a baseline like I said. Do I believe you could tow more, probably, if it says 9600, does it really mean 13k, probably not, as with any rating on just about anything theres probably a 10-15% leway on it/

 

 

The correct way to look at it is a 5.3 has the same brakes, etc, as a 6.2 rated to tow 12,000, so it has more than it should ever need. HP and torque matter a lot, especially if the trucks brakes, etc, are easily up to the task. If you tow a heavy load up and down steep mountain passes, you'll find the brakes are just fine--hardly breaking a sweat. The engine, on the other hand, it'll leave much to be desired.

When your talking towing HP really doesnt matter, modern semis dont have any more HP then 3/4 or 1 ton diesels, they have more torque granted, torque matters in towing. But it still matters what frame, you have, weight of the tow vehicle, numbers of wheels, breaking etc. If the engine was the be all in the towing equation, then a chevy cruze could have a 6.2l in it with the same breaking and be fine for towing. Whether the numbers published are grossly wrong and the true numbers are out in space, a half ton is a half ton it has its capability, where that it is for you I guess is different than industry standards.

 

 

Who is talking about cost/benefit? Nobody buys a brand new luxury truck for occasional towing because it wins in that area--not even close. If that's what's important, buy a 20 year old Cummins. It'll get the job done very cheaply, but there's certainly nothing "enjoyable" about towing with one of those very long, or driving it in daily use.

If somebody doesnt do a basic cost benefit analysis when buying a vehicle and just picks one out with out factoring in price, what it can do, they either have have lots of money and dont care, or dont understand what they are doing. And I was reffering to buying a brand new vehicle, not comparing a brand new truck vs stuff made in the last two decades. I was also referring to comparing one model vs another, so yes doing a cost benefit analysis is quite reasonable to do. Whats so luxury about a truck, because they put leather in it?

 

 

You can't. The 6.2 is not available in a 3/4 ton. You're stuck with the 6.0 which is a dog in comparison. If you want a 3/4 ton that will actually pull better you need the Duramax. An extra $12K or so for occasional towing of light/medium weight trailers looks dramatically worse in the cost/benefit column.

Your right the 6.0 is in the 3/4 ton and is junk, IMVHO gas engines in those applications are junk period. But your still talking about a heavier truck with better axles, frame, breaking, which again is better for towing. I priced out a diesel the other day when my truck was in the shop and something comparable was 58-59 in a duramax before really dickering, so I think you could probably be in one for around 5-7k more vs a 6.2l half ton. But your right diesels never work out in the math unless you tow a lot/heavy and or put around 30-40k a year on the truck. But with that said if you need it you need it, if it tow something thats 13k-14k and only tow it a few times a year doesnt mean I should just buy a half ton, thats like letting a 12 ton truck cross a 5 ton bridge eventhough its only doing it once. So in this instance when you factor in safety and what it can do the cost benefit does work out.

 

If Ford's 6.2 was even on the same planet as GM's as far as emissions, mileage, overall torque curve and weight, that comparison would have some validity. But it's not.

 

We can get into brand loyalty and brand arguing. But the specs are fairly similar and its not a night and day comparison. Point was ford is taking away a package, if they felt that engine had its niche and its market they would keep it in their line up and or develop it further. Again put what engine you want into a vehicle thats great, but you still have to figure in the truck as a whole.

 

Yes, and this is very important because this happens ALL THE TIME!...........on the Internet.

 

Without even beginning that conversation, you said 1/2 tons shouldn't even be used within their tow rating (not even close to 12,000 lbs no matter what the sticker says, even though some 1/2 tons are rated for that). Speaking of trusting someone's opinion (you just said we shouldn't do that), upon what do you base that? Even if their current numbers aren't the most meaningful, why do you think you know better than they do? If/when one passes all the tests of SAE J2807 with a weight close to that, will you stand by the same opinion? Based upon what?

 

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being conservative with loading your vehicle, that's not my point. My point was I think many people should put a little less faith in numbers that aren't very meaningful, and rely on their own brains a little more. Especially right now, when all the numbers may change significantly very soon if the big three do adopt J2807 for their ratings.

 

You may buy a vehicle right now with a big number on the sticker, only to find next year's model has a much smaller number--even with no mechanical changes to the vehicle! And a different truck you may have liked a little better but it had a little smaller number on the sticker...it might get a bigger number, again, with no changes!

 

I'm just trying to advise people to use their heads a little in the decision making process and think about things that are really going to make a difference in the real world vs. treating the current ratings as gospel when they're largely a joke. If the big three do finally adopt J2807 in the coming years, then it will be a different conversation. While they still won't quite be gospel, at least then the numbers will be based on some very real capabilities and should be comparable from manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

While there will be nothing preventing manufacturers from purposely under-rating specific vehicles to give more advertising wiggle room in the future, you can have confidence none are going to be over-rated. Actually hooking up a trailer and passing all those tests with the vehicle will mean one can be pretty confident the vehicle really can handle that number on the sticker pretty well. That'll be a big improvement from where we are now.

 

Though they aren't using the standard for ratings yet, we are already reaping many benefits from the effort behind J2807. The large brakes, effective grade braking, standard fluid coolers, really stout hitch, etc, are evidence manufacturers are already building the trucks to pass those tests--which means we're getting much more capable trucks, even if the bogus numbers on the stickers don't necessarily reflect it.

 

 

 

I already said I hate to be that guy, and not playing the scare tactic, none the less still something to think about, and asking yourself are you willing to take the risk. I already played devils advocate on just about everything I stated, so I dont understand why you are going over that again. And I said you shouldnt be getting close to 12k, because if you use published data of towing and factor in payload, GVWR, etc and factor in 4 people in the truck, tongue, gear, you cant tow 12k, you just cant. So whether we beleive it or not the numbers on current half tons really prevent you from towing more than 11,800 in the highest package available. factor in a minumum of two people and tongue weight the best half ton can by the numbers only tow about 11 grand tops.

 

I understand what you are saying on numbers and dont necessarily disagree. But Im not so sure we can just say they are bogus and not believe them because we have some premanition about it. Now if you have some scientific data such as J2807 that is published for current specific models please share it so we can know what real capability some of these trucks have. As it sits to just say have a brain and dont rely on manufacture specs without having something else published to refer to is rather silly. But like you I would like to see some standardization instead of what we have now, as like we said how does year to year virtually the same truck go up or down? Doesnt make any sense.

 

 

My observations were stated to give the gentlemen information on how to figure tow ratings now whether he, I, or you decides to beleive them thats up to the individual. And the 6.2l is a nice engine and this America we can buy what we want to buy. But if you do the equation a 6.2l vs a 5.3l for the average guy just doest make sense when you look at cost vs what you actually get, now I own a camaro with a 6.2l the most non make sense car there is, so Im not saying there anything wrong that purchase, and if you want it to want it, Im not flaming you or anybody else. And like you said if you tow up hill both ways and need the extra juice your equation would work out for you, your need outweighs cost, but most people dont tow up hill both ways, some do most dont. And you said to use your head, well if most buyers use their heads and looked at need vs cost they probably wouldnt buy what they bought as most people buy things because they just wanted and dont look at the purchase as whole. Vehicles have always been a capital expenditure but now days they are even more, so to use your head is even more important to buy what you need and getting what you paid for. But then again you guys and girls going in buying LTZ and what not because their payment is a certain level and rotate in and out vehicles. Which is very poor and irrational way to buy vehicles.

[Jon A]

When your talking towing HP really doesnt matter...

 

 

And one of the best things about the 6.2 is the low/mid RPM torque. It will spend a lot of time chugging along where the 5.3 would need to downshift a gear in order to maintain the same speed. This is something you absolutely will notice--a lot.

 

 

But it still matters what frame, you have, weight of the tow vehicle, numbers of wheels, breaking etc. If the engine was the be all in the towing equation, then a chevy cruze could have a 6.2l in it with the same breaking and be fine for towing.

 

I was saying nothing of the sort. I was pointing out GM designed the frame, brakes, transmission, hitch, etc--all that stuff for 12,000 lbs. They are the same on every truck (V8, at least). You will not notice a difference at all, regardless of what the sticker says because they are all the same. If you're under the impression a higher number on the sticker of one of these things means the frame will bend less or that it'll stop better, you are misinformed. The only things that will make a big difference you'll notice in the real world are the gear ratio and engine. And yes, they really will make a big difference.

 

Whether the numbers published are grossly wrong and the true numbers are out in space, a half ton is a half ton it has its capability, where that it is for you I guess is different than industry standards.

 

You said a half ton rated right close to 12,000 shouldn't be used anywhere near 12,000. You're the one differing from the "industry standards."

 

I was also referring to comparing one model vs another, so yes doing a cost benefit analysis is quite reasonable to do. Whats so luxury about a truck, because they put leather in it?

 

The price. You can't get a stripped down WT or LT, etc, with the 6.2.

 

We can get into brand loyalty and brand arguing. But the specs are fairly similar and its not a night and day comparison. Point was ford is taking away a package, if they felt that engine had its niche and its market they would keep it in their line up and or develop it further. Again put what engine you want into a vehicle thats great, but you still have to figure in the truck as a whole.

 

It has nothing to do with brand loyalty, but the reality of the specs. What specs are you looking at? They're not remotely similar. While peak HP is close, as you mentioned that's not what you care about for towing. The Ford 6.2 is a dog at low and mid RPM. Until 4000 RPM it doesn't have any more torque than the 5.3. The GM 6.2 stomps it. 16 MPG vs. 20 MPG. And it weighs somewhere around 150-200 lbs more (did Ford spend all that money on the aluminum body to save weight only to put that boat anchor in it?). So no, not similar at all.

 

And I said you shouldnt be getting close to 12k, because if you use published data of towing and factor in payload, GVWR, etc and factor in 4 people in the truck, tongue, gear, you cant tow 12k, you just cant....

 

So I can't tow anything unless I take 3 people with me? And lots of gear? That's a copout. Of course you need to subtract for that IF you happen to be in that situation. But saying one can't get close to 12,000, is not accurate as you easily can with the max tow package as long as you're lightly loaded otherwise.

 

As it sits to just say have a brain and dont rely on manufacture specs without having something else published to refer to is rather silly.

 

No, again I was specifically saying the frame, brakes, transmission, etc, all the stuff you seem to be worried about, is the same on these trucks no matter what the "specs" say. So saying you need to look at the specs because that's the stuff you're worried about really is silly.

 

I said things not in those specs (like 6.2 vs. 5.3) can make a big difference in the real world and make for a much more pleasant towing experience. Somebody using his head should realize this. Somebody looking at the number on the sticker will think there is no difference.

[nards444]

I was saying nothing of the sort. I was pointing out GM designed the frame, brakes, transmission, hitch, etc--all that stuff for 12,000 lbs. They are the same on every truck (V8, at least). You will not notice a difference at all, regardless of what the sticker says because they are all the same. If you're under the impression a higher number on the sticker of one of these things means the frame will bend less or that it'll stop better, you are misinformed. The only things that will make a big difference you'll notice in the real world are the gear ratio and engine. And yes, they really will make a big difference.

 

Right but what gives you the higher rating isnt the 6.2l per say its the max tow package which is a different rear end and other options so no not every v8 model is the same, frame and breaks probably axle and gear ratio no, along with a few other things thats factor into towing. Yes engine is important but not the end all be all.

 

And one of the best things about the 6.2 is the low/mid RPM torque. It will spend a lot of time chugging along where the 5.3 would need to downshift a gear in order to maintain the same speed. This is something you absolutely will notice--a lot.

 

Good point. But what also hase been helping these tow ratings in all manufactures is the 6spd trannys and now whats coming is the 8 spd which will probably boost it even more.

 

The price. You can't get a stripped down WT or LT, etc, with the 6.2.

 

Your right, but again whats luxury about a truck its a truck were not talking benz, or bentley quality here. Although trucks have come a long way. Price is price but again your might be right where or not its justified price can be an indicator of luxury for some.

 

So I can't tow anything unless I take 3 people with me? And lots of gear? That's a copout. Of course you need to subtract for that IF you happen to be in that situation. But saying one can't get close to 12,000, is not accurate as you easily can with the max tow package as long as you're lightly loaded otherwise.

 

Im not saying you cant do anything, you can tow a boat with a golf cart if you like. But really were talking about the same thing here. My point was that 6.2l can do 11,800 a crew cab short weighs almost 5400 that puts you at 12,300, you can tow a 11,800lb item. So you got 500lbs to spare, throw in tongue weight you might already bust that as larger items can have 4-500lbs in tongue weight. In reality depending on your item you really cant load it up all the way. But if your talking one person, or two smaller people sure you could tow at the max. But four people at 200lbs a piece average and luggage or gear. Your max is more than likely closer to 11000lbs. Again this is published data, whethere you obey it or not, thats up to you, I really dont care.

 

 

But your right using your head is most important. and one should be wise now this is my opinion but if you are towing regularly or long distances something that weighs around that 12k mark your head would tell you to probably find another application to do it with.

[kurtg2020]

 

Im not saying you cant do anything, you can tow a boat with a golf cart if you like. But really were talking about the same thing here. My point was that 6.2l can do 11,800 a crew cab short weighs almost 5400 that puts you at 12,300, you can tow a 11,800lb item. So you got 500lbs to spare, throw in tongue weight you might already bust that as larger items can have 4-500lbs in tongue weight. In reality depending on your item you really cant load it up all the way. But if your talking one person, or two smaller people sure you could tow at the max. But four people at 200lbs a piece average and luggage or gear. Your max is more than likely closer to 11000lbs. Again this is published data, whethere you obey it or not, thats up to you, I really dont care.

 

 

But your right using your head is most important. and one should be wise now this is my opinion but if you are towing regularly or long distances something that weighs around that 12k mark your head would tell you to probably find another application to do it with.

This is where I think most it goes wrong for most people, they hear that a truck has a 12,000lb tow capacity, and they don't factor in anything else. And to go even further, the average car salesman doesn't seem to truly understand it either. When traveling, I look at what some of these people are pulling with their "1/2 tons" and I think the tail is wagging the dog.

[Crf450r420]

150lbs difference from one motor to the other, not. I build Gen IV motors and will soon be building these Gen V motor. The only major difference is the bore of the motor, so if there is a weight difference it will be a few pounds.

 

I got the gas because I will be towing maybe 10% of the time and it's a much better choice for someone not towing often. I'm surrounded by diesel owners who tow as little as I do and it makes me laugh. The trucks cost more, the fuel cost more, and you have to keep them full of cat piss now.

 

I found the reason I didn't see the options is you can't have the Z71 and Max Tow, so once I selected that the Max option doesn't show.

[Jon A]

Right but what gives you the higher rating isnt the 6.2l per say....

 

Uhm, yeah, that was my point. My point exactly. Have you not been reading? You are looking at the number on the sticker, saying the engine doesn’t make a difference. Because the number doesn’t change. That number is gospel. That’s all that matters. So obviously, the engine doesn't matter.

 

I am telling you the engine will make a big difference in how the truck tows heavy loads in the real world. Use your head. Just because it doesn’t change that arbitrary number, does not mean engine choice should be dismissed out of hand as you suggested in the beginning of the thread. And yes, everything I mentioned as being the same is the same with all V8's. And you were comparing one Max Tow with another Max Tow, so....

 

Im not saying you cant do anything, you can tow a boat with a golf cart if you like. But really were talking about the same thing here. My point was that 6.2l can do 11,800 a crew cab short weighs almost 5400 that puts you at 12,300, you can tow a 11,800lb item. So you got 500lbs to spare, throw in tongue weight you might already bust that as larger items can have 4-500lbs in tongue weight.....

 

Again, that’s a copout/backpedal. You said no half ton should tow anywhere near that much weight—no matter what it is rated for! Saying now one can’t tow what it’s rated to tow, “Because this is how the ratings work….” is quite silly. We all know how the ratings work. That’s a given.

 

In addition, I was just using numbers off the top of my head. I went and checked the manual--I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers or how you're doing your math, but for a 4WD CC Standard Box (for example), I'm showing the GCWR for the Max Tow 6.2 as 17,700 lbs and 16,700 lbs for the 5.3. Both are higher than the 16,000 the 2500 is rated for with 3.73's bumper pull BTW.

[redwngr]

It's also interesting that in some vehicle configurations, the tow rating is LOWER with the 5.3!

 

4WD double cab, 6.5 box, 3.42:

5.3L tows 9500

6.2L tows 9400

 

with 3:73's

5.3 tows 11,100

6.2 tows 11,700

 

Same happens with the Double cab 5'8 3:42's and 3.73's (although the exact numbers are different)

 

These also show that (for these configurations) the rear end ratio has a bigger impact on the tow rating than the engine selection.

[Jon A]

Yeah, who knows what arbitrary measure they picked to get those numbers. I'm looking at three different owners manuals right now, downloaded at different times. I get three different answers for the 4X4 CC RB...but the truck hasn't changed.

 

Hopefully they'll finally start rating to J2807 soon. We still might not know which component/test is the limiting factor in a particular truck's rating, but at least we'll know some sort of real one exists. They also make things more realistic with the "TOW-VEHICLE TRAILERING WEIGHT (TVTW)" which should reduce the confusion mentioned above--instead of using the curb weight of a stripped down model with no passengers or other cargo, it assumes one passenger and 100 lbs of additional equipement. Still not as much as most people will have much of the time, but closer.

[nards444]

Uhm, yeah, that was my point. My point exactly. Have you not been reading? You are looking at the number on the sticker, saying the engine doesn’t make a difference. Because the number doesn’t change. That number is gospel. That’s all that matters. So obviously, the engine doesn't matter.

 

I am telling you the engine will make a big difference in how the truck tows heavy loads in the real world. Use your head. Just because it doesn’t change that arbitrary number, does not mean engine choice should be dismissed out of hand as you suggested in the beginning of the thread. And yes, everything I mentioned as being the same is the same with all V8's. And you were comparing one Max Tow with another Max Tow, so....

 

 

I never said engine doesnt totally matter. All I have said is I dont think its as much as a game changer as you would like to think, as minus the engine its the same truck. Will a bigger engine potentially tow better in the real world, yes you might be right, or your might be wrong, I dont know you and I arent engineers or professional truck drivers. All I said is for 60 more HP and Torque with added initial invesment plus more fuel cost, is it really worth buying, IMVHO for the average driver /tower I dont think it is, for the guy that tows up hill both ways in a snow storm and needs the extra power, I would say yes. For you it obviously was as you have tried to defend it from the start when I wasnt attacking. But chances are like most guys that buy diesels and bigger engines the largest thing they are handling is a jet ski or some groceries. Also your right put some more HP and torque in there you might be able to accel up hills faster and 0-60 faster, but that doesnt change breaking, handling all things that are major factors int towing, nor does being able to pull faster make it safer all the time. Again Im going by published data, not what I believe to be true without any sort of scientific data to back it up, without anything other than what GM tells me I have to beleive it and run with it, unless I can find something else. A coup out is saying well more HP and torque means I can tow more, not necessarily, you may be able to tow the same weight more efficiently doesnt mean you can tow more. Your still crediting the engine a lot more than you should, the truck as a whole has to be looked at engine is a factor yes and big one your right, but at the end of the day its still a half ton regardless of what power plant you have in it, it still weighs only so much, has so much breaking, certain axles etc. If you dont get that you dont understand towing.

 

Again, that’s a copout/backpedal. You said no half ton should tow anywhere near that much weight—no matter what it is rated for! Saying now one can’t tow what it’s rated to tow, “Because this is how the ratings work….” is quite silly. We all know how the ratings work. That’s a given.

 

In addition, I was just using numbers off the top of my head. I went and checked the manual--I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers or how you're doing your math, but for a 4WD CC Standard Box (for example), I'm showing the GCWR for the Max Tow 6.2 as 17,700 lbs and 16,700 lbs for the 5.3. Both are higher than the 16,000 the 2500 is rated for with 3.73's bumper pull BTW.

 

 

I did say near that weight, but I didnt state how much. If you want a number IMVHO, again this is my opinion and nothing related to facts and this what I would do, I would not tow more than 10-11 grand with a half ton, I just wouldnt, now published data will tell you can tow up to 11,800 in a properly equipped 6.2l Truck thats the data. But again thats a misnomer as you cant just hook a 11,800 boat to a truck and go, you have to figure in payload and such.

 

 

Before we get to Data

GVWR- Is the total maximum weight of the vehicle includng people, pets ets

GCWR- Is the total of loaded truck and what you are towing

 

And here the data from GMs Website as of this morning, I used 4x4 Crew cab shorty, with 5.3l and the 6.2l, these numbers would assume having the max tow and 3.73 gearing

 

For the 5.3l The total GCWR is 16,700, towing capacity is 11,200, payload 1957, curb weight 5200lbs

 

16,700 - Subtract weight of truck 5200lbs= 11,500lbs

 

In that configuration you can tow 11,200lbs. Which means you have 300lbs(as after minusing the weight of the truck from GCWR you get 11,500, minus what you can tow which is 11,200 gets you 300lbs) to play with in tongue weight, people, and gear until you have to start subtracting weight from what you are towing. So for instance you have 800lbs in people, tongue weight and gear, the max weight you can actually tow is 10,700lbs

 

 

Now for the 6.2l The total GCWR is 17,700, towing capacity is 11,800, payload 1805, curb weight 5400lbs

 

17,700- Subtract weight of the truck 5,400lbs = 12,300

 

In that configuration you can tow 11,800 which means you have 500lbs to play with in tongue weight, people, and gear until you have to start subtracting weight from what you are towing.

 

 

One note keep in mind if you are towing something that weighs 11,800 lbs you have to figure 10-15% tongue weight, so thats at a minumum 1800lbs, which right of the bat limits you from towing that item. And goes back to what I said before is you really can not tow the maximum weight its impossible if your going by published data. Which again depends on what you choose to believe or not, but due to lack of better data the prudent individual would have to believe what the manufacture publishes, and yes interject some rational reasoing. So yes it might not be reality for you, but as the industry standards sits, you can never really tow at their maxmumum weight in most half ton applications.

 

The basic formula for figuring out how much you can tow is to take GCWR- (Curb weight of truck+ payload, passengers, and tongue weight) = The maximum weight of what can go behind your tuck. Your starting backwards by looking at what the stated maximum towing capacity is, as in your words thats not reality.

[Jon A]

Will a bigger engine potentially tow better in the real world, yes you might be right, or your might be wrong, I dont know you and I arent engineers or professional truck drivers.

 

Actually, I am an Engineer, but you don't need to be one to know this isn't even a question, a little experience is sufficient. It will do better. Without testing them yourself there are plenty of published tests and reviews that reflect that. The only question is whether or not the difference matters that much to you. If you aren't going to be towing anything heavy and don't live near any mountains, or maybe you just don't mind taking things a little slower when required, it probably isn't.

 

For the 5.3l The total GCWR is 16,700, towing capacity is 11,200, payload 1957, curb weight 5200lbs....

 

I think part of the problem was what I realized later--looking at different manuals gives you different numbers depending upon when it was published as it looks like they've been changing the numbers.

 

The only other thing I see wrong with your numbers is it looks like you're adding the tongue weight into the GCWR twice. That's not correct. The GCWR is the total weight of the truck and total weight of the trailer. It'll be the same before and after you hook them up if they're on the same scale. You don't count the tongue weight to the weight of the truck and to the weight of the trailer--it can't be two places at once.

 

You do count the tongue weight into your payload to make sure you're not exceeding the GVWR (7200 lbs for most of these IIRC).

 

So in your example, a trailer 11,800 lbs would have a tongue weight of 1180 (10% industry standard). 7200-5400-1180=620 lbs left over for passengers/cargo before exceeding GVW. So if you loaded it up to that, you'd have a total truck weight of 5400+620=6020 leaving space for the tongue weight.

 

6020+11800= 17820 GCWR. So, you're 120 lbs over your GCWR. So yes, you're right, you can't load it to the hilt and still pull your max trailer weight without exceeding something, but it's not really that far off.