NHT and 1/2 ton towables

Tommyz66 · July 26, 2018

16 hours ago, sldhead700 said:

Hopefully the attachment opens, I'm not computer savvy......https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5b591fdc70fa4/2018_RV_Trailer_Towing_Guide_F_150.pdf

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WOW, that chart is misleading. Some configuration can get you 3200 # payload if properly equipped. But later in the guide the max cargo weight is 2873 # for a 4x2 reg cab.....Supercrew 4x4 is 1799 #. It seems that they did not include the required options as stated when calculating payload which is totally worthless.

sldhead700 · July 26, 2018

WOW, that chart is misleading. Some configuration can get you 3200 # payload if properly equipped. But later in the guide the max cargo weight is 2873 # for a 4x2 reg cab.....Supercrew 4x4 is 1799 #. It seems that they did not include the required options as stated when calculating payload which is totally worthless.

Agreed, that's why I asked him what model he was comparing......

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Jon A · July 26, 2018

For years Ford has had a "max payload" option for the F150's. I think a major reason is simply to look good in those charts for advertising purposes. This option is very rare and has only been available on certain configurations over the years which means it has not been available for the trucks most people want to buy. So take those numbers with a big grain of salt; the typical F-150 is going to have available payloads similar to a GM 1500 and in most cases lower than a GM 1500 with the NHT (which is a lot more common).

Donstar · July 27, 2018

I tried the Ford build & price exercise with similar features I would want on my Silverado/Sierra.. GVWR came out at 7600 lbs. which is the same as the GM's with the NHT package.

DHeinze · July 27, 2018

I have a 2018 1500 Denali 6.2L Eco Tech, 3.42 gears. We avg. unburdened about 26.5 mpg highway. over all avg. 17.5-18. This is much higher than what we expected from the window sticker avg. of 15 city and 21 highway.

Pulling 4500 lbs travel trailer it is avg. 12 mpg. If you have a head wind is is 6-8 mpg.

We are upgrading to a fifth wheel and seriously considering just putting a 3.73 rear end in the truck and reprogramming. With the 8 Speed trans. and Eco Tech engine people are reporting the motor stays in 4V mode more and gas mileage improves because of the increased torque. I personally have not seen a conversion done or driven one, so unsure of actual results.

My wife primarily drives the truck and refused to drive a HD 2500 to get groceries.

I'm thinking this is a good option to get the performance for the heavier travel trailer and improve the gas mileage at the same time.

I would greatly appreciate input since I'm not a mechanic f anyone else has heard of this.

Jon A · July 27, 2018

Your mileage is very good now, it's doubtful a gear change either way will improve upon it--at least not enough to justify the cost of the change. In your case I would not spend that money hoping for an improvement in mileage.

If you're looking for more towing oomph, gears can give you that. Personally I would not spend that much money to change from 3.42 to 3.73 as the difference is just not big enough to justify the money. If you want gears, skip to 4.11's or save your money. But with the 8-speed your setup is already pretty good; maybe see how it does with the new trailer and see if you feel the need for any help (too much gear hunting in the lower gears going up hills, etc).

And that's coming from somebody who has swapped to 4.11's from 3.42's. My truck has a 6-speed and 35's though, so it really sort of needed the swap.

DHeinze · July 27, 2018

Thank you for the advise. The reason we were considering is because of the 9100 lbs towing capacity with the 3.42 rear per GMC. Which I didn't understand. The stock 3.23 gears according to them are required for the 12,500 lbs tow capacity with the NHT. The fifth wheel we are considering is 11,936 GVRW, 8796 dry weight. We travel quite a bit in the mountains when we go and my concern is pulling hills. Granted the only way we know the 4500 lbs travel trailer we have is behind the truck now is the mpg loss...

Donstar · July 27, 2018

49 minutes ago, DHeinze said:

Thank you for the advise. The reason we were considering is because of the 9100 lbs towing capacity with the 3.42 rear per GMC. Which I didn't understand. The stock 3.23 gears according to them are required for the 12,500 lbs tow capacity with the NHT. The fifth wheel we are considering is 11,936 GVRW, 8796 dry weight. We travel quite a bit in the mountains when we go and my concern is pulling hills. Granted the only way we know the 4500 lbs travel trailer we have is behind the truck now is the mpg loss...

It is not the drive train that is your problem. The NHT package with the 6.2 comes with a 3.42 gear ratio and an 8 spd transmission. The trailer you are considering is too heavy for your truck. I have the same weight of trailer as you and also get 12 mpg with my V6. Like you, I'm considering a 5th wheeler but will first buy a truck rated to haul the GVWR of the trailer I intend to purchase. Modifications to your current truck will not increase its legal tow rating.

Tommyz66 · July 27, 2018

2 hours ago, Donstar said:

It is not the drive train that is your problem. The NHT package with the 6.2 comes with a 3.42 gear ratio and an 8 spd transmission. The trailer you are considering is too heavy for your truck. I have the same weight of trailer as you and also get 12 mpg with my V6. Like you, I'm considering a 5th wheeler but will first buy a truck rated to haul the GVWR of the trailer I intend to purchase. Modifications to your current truck will not increase its legal tow rating.

Just to clarify a bit, GVWR is just a number, it is not the end weight of the trailer. In this case they give over 3000# of capacity for your gear, water and propane. If you do not load it that much you may well be within the towing and payload specs of your truck.

In my case I figure 300 lbs water, 60 lbs propane, 20 armloads of food, pots and pans, clothes, chairs etc. assuming 20 lbs per load to be conservative. That is only 760 lbs of gear and gives me plenty of room to spare. On his 5th wheel I would be comfortable with 9556 lbs trailer weight depending on the actual tongue weight of course.

Donstar · July 27, 2018

1 hour ago, Tommyz66 said:

Just to clarify a bit, GVWR is just a number, it is not the end weight of the trailer. In this case they give over 3000# of capacity for your gear, water and propane. If you do not load it that much you may well be within the towing and payload specs of your truck.

In my case I figure 300 lbs water, 60 lbs propane, 20 armloads of food, pots and pans, clothes, chairs etc. assuming 20 lbs per load to be conservative. That is only 760 lbs of gear and gives me plenty of room to spare. On his 5th wheel I would be comfortable with 9556 lbs trailer weight depending on the actual tongue weight of course.

I do understand the difference between dry trailer weight and gross weight. As you suggest as long as the payload and gross combined weights are maintained you will have a safe load. By using the gross trailer weight as my truck buying guide, I can be a little more relaxed in what I choose to pack. If OP is weighing in at 9500 lbs (which may be conservative for a 8700 lb dry weight) his tongue weight will be anywhere from 10 -20% of this figure. He could conceivably reach his payload before he sits in the truck.

DHeinze · July 27, 2018

Thank you all for the advise. It sounds like I can pull the travel trailer I want if I chose too. It's just whether or not I'm doing it legally. That explains a lot. I couldn't understand why the same power train could pull 12,500 one truck and only 9100 on the other. Our intent has been to add air bags to the rear to level the ride out all along. I have never liked a high front end with load on the truck The power trian I have is the same. It's only what GMC rates it at. Does this sound correct?

Tommyz66 · July 27, 2018

Well, no that does not sound correct. If one is rated at 12,500 and the other at 9100 with the same power train, then there is also suspension, brakes, transmission cooler, etc that go into the rating. There is a standard that is published for towing.....it has to do with capability to tow a certain amount of weight up a certain stretch of highway, I don't have the link right now but googling the standard should help.

Donstar · July 27, 2018

36 minutes ago, DHeinze said:

Thank you all for the advise. It sounds like I can pull the travel trailer I want if I chose too. It's just whether or not I'm doing it legally. That explains a lot. I couldn't understand why the same power train could pull 12,500 one truck and only 9100 on the other. Our intent has been to add air bags to the rear to level the ride out all along. I have never liked a high front end with load on the truck The power trian I have is the same. It's only what GMC rates it at. Does this sound correct?

Look at the GM website to see the features of the max tow package (NHT). Air bags will help level your truck while hauling but they don't increase your tow rating.

sldhead700 · July 27, 2018

Thank you all for the advise. It sounds like I can pull the travel trailer I want if I chose too. It's just whether or not I'm doing it legally. That explains a lot. I couldn't understand why the same power train could pull 12,500 one truck and only 9100 on the other. Our intent has been to add air bags to the rear to level the ride out all along. I have never liked a high front end with load on the truck The power trian I have is the same. It's only what GMC rates it at. Does this sound correct?

And when your in a wreck because your not weight legal, kiss your income goodbye, because insurance company won't stand by you!
They will be able to come after you for willful negligence among other things.

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Jon A · July 27, 2018

8 hours ago, DHeinze said:

Thank you for the advise. The reason we were considering is because of the 9100 lbs towing capacity with the 3.42 rear per GMC. Which I didn't understand. The stock 3.23 gears according to them are required for the 12,500 lbs tow capacity with the NHT.

Are you sure you're reading your numbers correctly? Sorry I didn't catch this the first time, but if you have the 6.2 and 8-Speed for 2018 I think you have to have 3.23 gears, not 3.42. The only way to get 3.42 with that combo was with the NHT package...but since you have a Denali it's not likely you have it as I don't think it was available. Find your build codes and verify, but if you now have 3.23's, I do think swapping to 3.73's would be a worthwhile upgrade (though I'd still lean toward 4.11's for a trailer that big).

1 hour ago, Tommyz66 said:

there is also suspension, brakes, transmission cooler, etc that go into the rating.

Brakes are the same, transmission cooler is the same. Big differences (other than gears) are rear springs and slightly thicker radiator. Both very fixable.

1 hour ago, sldhead700 said:

And when your in a wreck because your not weight legal, kiss your income goodbye, because insurance company won't stand by you!
They will be able to come after you for willful negligence among other things.

Good grief, where on earth do people come up with this garbage? You can guzzle a case of vodka, drive down the freeway the wrong way until you crash, and your insurance company will "stand by you." They have to. That's the law. They may raise your rates or drop you afterward, but the idea that if you exceed a number in your owner's manual by a little you are somehow driving without insurance is pure fiction.