3.0 Duramax DEF consumption

[ChuckTaylor]

Anyone have news on this bulletin?  Anything I can't fill at the DEF pump at the truck stop is a non-starter for me.

[steve841]

Might be time to get out of the cold ...

 

"BlueDEF® is stable, colorless and odorless, and meets ISO Standards 22241 for purity and composition and is an American Petroleum Institute (API) certified diesel exhaust fluid. "

 

Owner Manual:  "Use only DEF that is GM approved, or fluid containing the API certified or ISO 22241 label."

 

So while BlueDEF may not support ultra cold temps, it's perfectly acceptable to run.   GM could not refuse to cover or Mr. Lawyer would get involved.

[ChuckTaylor]

 

Is what I see in the manual, which means the stuff in the pump and autozone should work fine?  I also remember faintly hearing that if they require their brand for something emissions related, they have to supply it.  That is the foggy depths of my memory from ~2011 though when I had a VW with DEF.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by ChuckTaylor

[ullose272]

Im pretty sure there is a law that states a company cannot have a monopoly on a certain fluid, or something to that effect. Just like they cannot say you have to use a certain oil, they can say it must meet such and such guidlines, like dexosD, but cannot say you must use acdelco or whatever oil.

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[topgear1224]

Anyone have news on this bulletin?  Anything I can't fill at the DEF pump at the truck stop is a non-starter for me.

So I ended up talking to the master technician on the phone. There is not an actual bulletin. According to the owner's manual -

"Use only DEF that is GM approved, or fluid containing the API certified or ISO22241 label. DEF has an expiration date. If the system detects poor quality, or contaminated or diluted DEF, a DIC message will display along with distance until vehicle speed is limited."

Per Bulletin No.: 19-NA-237 all damage related to contamination is not covered.

-----

HOWEVER, water contamination is a huge issue up here from the amount of condensation that builds in the tank during winter (does the same thing with your fuel gas or diesel). He stated at extremely cold temperatures the vehicle actually does not use any DEF (can't inject what you can't pump). And so that build up just keeps building up all 8 months of winter we have here. When you park in a heated garage and initially start the truck in the morning the system starts pumping, when it detects ambient falling below its set value it stops, but a lot of times that excessive water is still in the lines. That water then freezes and cracks lines, injectors, and valves.

Although the def is not technically contaminated by water in the jug. When you need the system repaired at the local dealer they have to interpret the contamination. that interpretation decides whether or not it's covered under your warranty or not.

The dealer stated the GM has been much more picky over what they are or are not allowed to cover in reference to DEF system freeze ups.

Both of those L5Ps he said gm on the 2018 and 2019 would have covered. but on those of those repair situations GM wanted evidence that official fluid was used.

at such the way the dealer basically puts it is if a dealer screws up your oil change and your engine blows it's covered under warranty. Even though the failure was caused by somebody other than general motors. It's covered as it was a result of dealership work performed.

As such if you only use DEF from the dealer and have the dealer fill the truck every single time, you have 2 protections in place. by using a genuine AC Delco part you have the AC Delco guarantee that the part is correct and won't cause damage. by having the dealership install it do you ensure that there is no way for GM to say that the failure was your fault. if GM wanted to say the failure was still your fault there's also a way for the dealership to file it basically stating that they screwed up.

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[topgear1224]

Might be time to get out of the cold ...
 
"BlueDEF[emoji2400] is stable, colorless and odorless, and meets ISO Standards 22241 for purity and composition and is an American Petroleum Institute (API) certified diesel exhaust fluid. "
 
Owner Manual:  "Use only DEF that is GM approved, or fluid containing the API certified or ISO 22241 label."
 
So while BlueDEF may not support ultra cold temps, it's perfectly acceptable to run.   GM could not refuse to cover or Mr. Lawyer would get involved.

that's the unique thing about the DEF system because it's sensitive to any kind of contamination you would have to somehow prove that contamination was not there.

Easy enough.

The problem is, it IS there it's just naturally occurring. The water contamination is from the ambient air not from somebody pouring 2 gallons of water into the tank. Since the system shuts off in extreme cold the fluid also begins to age very rapidly from not only the water contamination but because of the fact that for effectively 8 months system does not pump anything except for when you pull out of your garage.

that's where the loophole comes in to play whether or not "contamination" exists

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[topgear1224]

 
Is what I see in the manual, which means the stuff in the pump and autozone should work fine?  I also remember faintly hearing that if they require their brand for something emissions related, they have to supply it.  That is the foggy depths of my memory from ~2011 though when I had a VW with DEF.
 

Correct you can use either the GM brand or one that meets the API standard.

however in the supertech situation supertech offered to refund them for their 3 bottles of DEF and did not offer to cover any of the repairs.

When you use AC Delco products repair coverage is possible.

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[topgear1224]

Now I understand why the ram dealer refuses to stock EcoDiesel trucks up here.

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[LaRed]

delete

Edited April 19, 2020 by LaRed
others covered subject

[LaRed]

8 hours ago, ullose272 said:

Im pretty sure there is a law that states a company cannot have a monopoly on a certain fluid, or something to that effect. Just like they cannot say you have to use a certain oil, they can say it must meet such and such guidlines, like dexosD, but cannot say you must use acdelco or whatever oil.

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It is the Magnuson Act, Passed by Congress December 17, 1943. They have the right to write specifications but not require consumers  use their brand. Where you going to find an open GM dealer at midnight anywhere if you need DEF.? If this is the case my brand new truck will belong to someone else shortly. 

[topgear1224]

I have read my owners manual. It does not specify GM branded DEF. My dealer confirms GM is not required but recommends theirs. Why am I not surprised? They do have a specification for DEF which must be adhered.  Have you ever heard of the Magnuson Act passed by Congress December 17, 1943. If you haven't you should read it.

I am aware of the act.

I mean I can roll the dice and see what happens and then just simply add DEF and make sure that I do a video of it every single time that I add it. Lawyers love video evidence.

The whole point is to make DEF claims non deniable, the only way to do that is to buy fluid from the dealer and have them install it on the service ticket every time.

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[topgear1224]

It is the Magnuson Act, Passed by Congress December 17, 1943. They have the right to write specifications but not require consumers  use their brand. Where you going to find an open GM dealer at midnight anywhere if you need DEF.? If this is the case my brand new truck will belong to someone else shortly. 

To be clear this issue could only affect you if you live somewhere that has Arctic conditions such as -40F AIR TEMP not wind chill. AND you have a shitty dealer with no competition for 400 miles.

everyone else doesn't really have anything to worry about DEF is stable down to I believe -17F at that point it begins to slush and I believe -23F is when it actually freezes.

Also really depends on how long you plan on keeping the vehicle my long-term is looking to be about 10 years or 200,000 miles.

Only has to survive 2 more winters up here. After that it's back to the lower 48.

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[redwngr]

On 4/18/2020 at 8:38 PM, topgear1224 said:

To be clear this issue could only affect you if you live somewhere that has Arctic conditions such as -40F AIR TEMP not wind chill. AND you have a shitty dealer with no competition for 400 miles.

everyone else doesn't really have anything to worry about DEF is stable down to I believe -17F at that point it begins to slush and I believe -23F is when it actually freezes.

Also really depends on how long you plan on keeping the vehicle my long-term is looking to be about 10 years or 200,000 miles.

Only has to survive 2 more winters up here. After that it's back to the lower 48.

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You've read been given a lot of bad information.

 

12 deg F (-11 deg C)
A 32.5% solution of DEF will begin to crystallize and freeze at 12 deg F (-11 deg C). At 32.5%, both the urea and water will freeze at the same rate, ensuring that as it thaws, the fluid does not become diluted, or over concentrated. The freezing and unthawing of DEF will not cause degradation of the product. 

 

DEF is made at the 32.5% ratio specifically because at that ratio it does not salt out (unlike other ratios of water and urea) so doesn't degrade due to freeze thaw.

 

Since nobody makes DEF that isn't made to the ISO spec.....

[BJ Niceguy]

I purchased my 3.0 duramax in February. Filled tank right away.  At 2500 miles (not towing averaging 24+ MPG) i was 2 bars below full. I decide to take a trip TOWING a 4500lb enclosed trailer (total weight). After 200 miles at 12.7 MPG alert came on saying 278 miles def remaining and gauge was now 1 bar above 1/2 tank. in 125 miles the low light came on and in another 50 miles alert came on saying empty and could drive x miles before power affected. I had to drive 20 miles to get def. Filled tank & it took about 4.2 gallons. as soon as got going alert came on saying less than 1000 miles remaining. After 500 miles alert said 258 miles remaining and gauge was 1 bar above 1/2 tank. in less than 120 miles empty tank alert came on again. I had purchased def and had with me. Took 2.5 gallons Plus not quite the rest of 1st box (about .8 gallon, so basically 3.2 gallons WHEN TANK SAID EMPTY. When started up alert came on and said 750 miles remaining right after fill. Drive about 650 miles and 1st low light came on. Stopped and installed 2.5 gallons I had. It probably could have taken more but gauge showed full. Drove another 300 miles home and when restart alert says 280 miles remaining. Basically I used about 11 gallons to go 2,225 miles averaging 12.7 round trip (10.8 worst and 15 best per tank of fuel). Every time gauge drop from 1 bar above half to empty in around 120 miles. Have appointment at dealer on Monday morning to atleast get gauge checked out. Was really hoping would use less def, But really have issue with gauge

 

Truck has plenty of power for my size load. On flat Nebraska road RPM ran 1,750 to 2500 with occasional 3.2 running 77 MPH. In mountains had worst mileage at 10.8 but still had enough power to hold 65 up Loveland pass (my old 5.3 would not hold 55 at top). Best mileage on 2 lane roads at 65 MPH

Edited May 11, 2020 by BJ Niceguy
additional info

[LaRed]

My issue, though not exactly like yours was close enough to call the same. Gauge or computer needs reprograming. And they seem to use an incredible amount of DEF when pulling a 4500 lb load. This is very disappointing to me. Never thought I would use my truck bed to haul DEF when on a trip pulling my flats boat.