Another oil thread

[customboss]

On 11/2/2023 at 7:20 PM, OnTheReel said:

Gonna be a tough one to learn for most people, I think. Everyone on the internet still seems convinced that the lower viscosity oils actually protect better by way of the “improved flow”. We saw firsthand how flawed that thinking is in my own truck’s samples.

If the high iron on that MOPAR 6.4L you speak of,  its the metallurgy that is crap not the lubricants. Same metallurgy causing issues in GM and FORD VVT cam and valvetrain components.  They all suck and the engine oil vis or formulation makes little help in slowing the failures and high-sloppy wear. 

[OnTheReel]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

If the high iron on that MOPAR 6.4L you speak of,  its the metallurgy that is crap not the lubricants. Same metallurgy causing issues in GM and FORD VVT cam and valvetrain components.  They all suck and the engine oil vis or formulation makes little help in slowing the failures and high-sloppy wear. 

I won’t say little help. I measured a fairly dramatic spike with using the Pennzoil that couldn’t stay in grade to save its life.

 

1) Red Line 0w40 (stayed in grade and run the longest of all samples)

2&3) Pennzoil Platinum 0w40 (sheared significantly and run the shortest)

4&5) Red Line 5w40

The Pennzoil being bookended by higher viscosity oils and the spike in iron following it perfectly is illustrative. If not of the impact of viscosity like I suspect, than at least the impact of one oils chemistry greatly out-performing another. 
 

Since the Ram 5.7 and GM 5.3 and 6.2 all call for 0w20 at this point (at up to 10,000 mile intervals for the Ram!)…you do wonder how many cam and lifter failures can be attributed to low viscosity and/or just plain tired oil. Often hand in hand. Metallurgy aside.

[Grumpy Bear]

Metallurgy? Hum. Like someone backed it up five decades? We've forgotten how to harden steel? Properly size and finish components? Or more like; caved into absurd regulation. Even the EPA freely admits the standards they set are unrealistic even unobtainable. It's the point of the regulation. Advance an agenda. OEM's are greedily taking advantage of the cards they are dealt. We are dumb enough to be frightened into compliance. 

 

Frogs boiled slowly don't even try to jump out of the pot. 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

10 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Metallurgy? Hum. Like someone backed it up five decades? We've forgotten how to harden steel? Properly size and finish components?

 

Yes, it happens a batch here and there like it has in all history of manufacturing.  But if it were solely that then it would affect all AMF platforms equally and it doesn't. It would affect AFM lifters only, and it doesn't.  It would affect all brands equally, and it doesn't.  

 

What does? A drive to zero grade oils without additives. 1920 all over again. SAE10 SA. 

 

They are not backing out of chemistry because it doesn't work. That point has been proved since 1930. Rather it interferes with a new technology or our health.  

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

 

Look at the additive package of this SAE30 Service type SA oil

 

 AutoZone SAE 30 Non-Detergent API SA (pqiadata.org)

 

An SB oil Petroleum Quality Institute of America (pqiamerica.com)

SB was the advent of Kendall oils 2K mile OCI. Would you? 

 

An SC oil Texas Gold SAE 30 API SC/CC (pqiadata.org)

 

An SF oil Dollar General (DG) Auto SAE 10W-40 API SF (pqiadata.org)

 

Tell me when you see the peak and then the backup. You can look the rest up to finish the picture on your own. 

[diyer2]

"Since the Ram 5.7 and GM 5.3 and 6.2 all call for 0w20 at this point (at up to 10,000 mile intervals for the Ram!)…you do wonder how many cam and lifter failures can be attributed to low viscosity and/or just plain tired oil. Often hand in hand. Metallurgy aside".

 

TIRED OIL!

 

More frequent OCI's, especially with of the shelf or dealer oil I believe would be beneficial. The manufacturers shot themselves in the foot pushing extended OCI's as a marketing tool. 

What I never understood is todays motors are more complicated than ever before, more pieces and tighter tolerances. Yes oil has improved but todays motors push oil to the limit.

 

Clean oil is a big benefit IMO, and the only way to get clean oil is keep it changed.

[customboss]

14 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Metallurgy? Hum. Like someone backed it up five decades? We've forgotten how to harden steel? Properly size and finish components? Or more like; caved into absurd regulation. Even the EPA freely admits the standards they set are unrealistic even unobtainable. It's the point of the regulation. Advance an agenda. OEM's are greedily taking advantage of the cards they are dealt. We are dumb enough to be frightened into compliance. 

 

Frogs boiled slowly don't even try to jump out of the pot. 

 

Quality not capability but you knew that....... In past ~5 years we have all  seen valvetrain failures in V8 engines of GM, Stellantis, and Ford spark engines that exceed anything I ever saw in 45 years of the testing business.  For whatever reason the QUALITY of the metallurgy is failing at very high rates and there isn't a viscosity or fluid that will stop those poor quality issues.  

 

Ask anyone here thats had their GM 6.2L repaired under warranty for valvetrain issues.  

 

OnTheReel I hope you found the holy grail of engine oil correctives because the analyses you've shared here show problems. 

 

You've fallen into the graph trap that Grumpy does and means nothing for oil analysis. Your valvetrain wear is still too darn high and until Stellantis warranties the coming severe/failure you can't graph all ya want.  

 

diyer2  actually USED engine oil in a healthy engine will provide better tribo layer protections than brand new stuff. Why when I raced for Oldsmobile we had RPM and heat limits before going full out on a road course after a oil change.  Additives must activate by HEAT.

 

For the two or three veterans here that served the constitution by putting their "meat in the seat" "boots on the ground" THANKS and respect. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

You've fallen into the graph trap

 

Sand a board over a piece of newspaper and how much sawdust you create is in part on how long you sand. 

Exact same thing in wear metals. If they are not 'normalized' to miles in service, number of revolutions or hours comparing one to the other is pointless. PPM/1K miles is an industry standard as would be ppm/hrs. stationary. 

 

If you going to toss out trends, statistical analysis, then you toss out science for smoke and mirrors. The trend matters more than the exact values, WITHIN REASON. That said every motor platform and build level has its own 'historical normal'. @OnTheReel numbers are within that 'historical normal' for that motor and state of tune. That has been checked and double checked. I'd be happier if they were lower. But happy don't do the job. I

 

Iron and no vanadium or chromium. No aluminum or tin. How do you leach out iron from an alloy? Ya don't. 

 

I see no correlation between the Hell Cat and the GM 6.2 in wear metals from the works I've seen. I see no correlation between the GM 5.3 and the 4.3 either and they use common valve trains all save the camshaft itself. The difference? Oil spec...

 

I will agree that IF a heat treat was missed, yes oil won't help. Did they miss them all or just enough batches to scare the heck out of people?  But if you are going to take all the Hell Cats down with high iron and copper, none will be left running. 

[OnTheReel]

In 3-4 weeks I’ll have another sample in the books and I anticipate further improvement. Truck is almost at the target mileage, and that will coincide perfectly with her winter slumber following the service.

We’ll see what the HPL Super Car is made of, and if the Amsoil EA oil filter’s performance is worth 3x the money over a Fram Ultra or PureOne (strongly doubt it). 

[Grumpy Bear]

20 hours ago, customboss said:

OnTheReel I hope you found the holy grail of engine oil correctives because the analyses you've shared here show problems. 

 

It shows a trend common the the Hell Cat. 

 

20 hours ago, customboss said:

diyer2  actually USED engine oil in a healthy engine will provide better tribo layer protections than brand new stuff.

 

Then I'll send you the oil I drain out of Pepper. 

 

 

20 hours ago, customboss said:

Why when I raced for Oldsmobile we had RPM and heat limits before going full out on a road course after a oil change.  Additives must activate by HEAT.

 

Wait, you change oil and start from ground zero like it leaves the metal on the drain? You don't know how heat activation works, do you? Here's a primer: 

 

The Role of Extreme Pressure Additives in Gear Oil (machinerylubrication.com)

 

Heat of friction in boundry layer conditions NOT the heat of the oil. Better hope your oil doesn't reach 1,000 C

 

untitled (stle.org)  

 

Riga, A., Hong, H., Kornbrekke, R., Cahoon, J. and Vinci, J. (1993), “Reactions of Overbased Sulfonates and Sulfurized Compounds with Ferric Oxide,” Lubrication Engineering, 49 (1), pp. 65–71.

 

I love Esters. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[diyer2]

Here we go again. 

[customboss]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:17 AM, diyer2 said:

Here we go again. 

No we don't.  I stay away from the Tar Baby  

[Grumpy Bear]

On 11/12/2023 at 11:17 AM, diyer2 said:

Here we go again. 

 

Nope! What an Ignore button is for. I don't do irrational. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. Someone arguing it will not, is not an argument I need to have. 

 

There are some things I am slow to learn. I grew up believing ANYONE could be reasoned with. I was wrong. One of many times I've been wrong. But I've met a class of people who are never wrong. Not even when it is obvious to them. 

 

They baffle me. If I let them, irritate me. Then I got a can of Monkey-Butt, and the rash went away. 

 

 

[KARNUT]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Nope! What an Ignore button is for. I don't do irrational. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. Someone arguing it will not, is not an argument I need to have. 

 

There are some things I am slow to learn. I grew up believing ANYONE could be reasoned with. I was wrong. One of many times I've been wrong. But I've met a class of people who are never wrong. Not even when it is obvious to them. 

 

They baffle me. If I let them, irritate me. Then I got a can of Monkey-Butt, and the rash went away. 

 

 

I know where that box is. You stay out of the box you learn things. 

[OnTheReel]

5 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

I grew up believing ANYONE could be reasoned with.

 

As soon as I had kids that belief went out the window.

 

Pretty much have to handle some people as adult children now that I think of it.