Another oil thread

[KARNUT]

42 minutes ago, customboss said:

In a normal world fuel used is more important than engine oil. 

 

Making an engine oil that does more than " lift and separate" and cool is overkill to compensate for the realities of our fuels in IC engines that have to meet emissions and filtered venting. 

 

Since the IC engine is a self propelled air compressor( once fired), the ability to fire that fuel charge efficiently is the next variable. 

 

In 43 years of  tribology sciences the ONLY reason I ever formulated an engine oil to do more than cool and separate parts with friction stabilization was because of those other two variables, fuel quality ( usually lack of) and combustion efficiency......Regardless of emissions...

 

Hey Grumpy most of the readers fathers here were born AFTER catalytic converters were mandated......yes Sir, we are old. 

 

 

 

 

Owners Manuals now recommend top tier fuel. The Genesis dealership started pushing injection cleaning at 30K miles. Most of my wife’s Genesis miles are in town. At 110K I relented along with spark plugs. 6 months later same fuel mileage. Most gas is Kroger gas or Sams. The Acura intagra type r gets topped off once a year it’s a 2001. Still bounces off 8500 RPMs with ease. Contrary to your belief maybe things are better in Texas. 

[diyer2]

Well you go to testing oil, just can't swallow that being I have never had problems by just changing fluids. Are my motors running at optimum levels, maybe not but never had a failure. Fluids and replacing parts, like spark plugs  before required service works for me. 

YMMV

[Grumpy Bear]

59 minutes ago, customboss said:

Grumpy, Nick, Me and OnTheReel now will be testing using Nicks service that can show qualitative delta so you can improve combustion cleanliness.  Unloading whatever oil you want to use.  

 

Oh boy!

Another rabbit hole.

 

 

Two biggest numbers for me in the tuner test are the GC fuels and Karl Fisher water. Lesson learned hard testing Dizzy was chasing oxidation and nitration (combustion efficiency) without having dilution under wraps was like bailing out the Titanic with a teaspoon. 

 

I can't think of an oil made that would be just fine with 5-8% fuel diluting it. 

 

Give the Biosynthetic taxi test a good look. 150K miles on crap fuels and the motors look mint. It is what CAN BE DONE even with "bad" fuel. The other half that test is what IS DONE by the majority. Even that could be made to look like the best half with a short enough OCI. I have personally witnessed one 1966 390 FE Ford clean as new inside on oils of the time changed on 1K mile OCI's when the motor had over 700K on it and to diyer2's point.  

 

I've also witnessed a 1970 350 Chevy go 150K without a single oil change or filter replacement. How's that for extended OCI's. Make up oil was clay filtered industrial compressor bulk oil. Motor never failed.  Never failed to use a couple of quarts per tank fill. To Stan's point. 

 

 

[Black02Silverado]

I've been using AMSOIL now for 22 years.  Not as long as some.  It has served me well and the 2 cycle oil is what sold me in the beginning in my jet ski.  I have a 20 year old Kawasaki string trimmer.  It has been using nothing but AMSOIL 2 cycle oil mix at 100:1  No issues and it sits from Dec to March with fuel in it and starts right up the first spring time use.

 

I have been doing UOA's since 2002.  We had a Chevy Venture van and in the course of doing the annual UOA when I changed the oil it showed a coolant issue.  Lucky it was under warranty, right at 33k miles on it at the time.  Turns out the intake gasket leaked and let coolant in.  The dealer fixed it under warranty.  They found the leak with a pressure test, after I showed the the UOA.  So to me especially now with all these manufactures making complicated engines.  A UOA is a good tool to use to possibly catch a problem before it becomes a major issue.  This is what I hope to do with our 2016 Suburban and my 2019 Silverado and the AFM/DFM systems that are on them. 

 

I was doing 15k oil changes in the Suburban but the UOA's were coming back showing the oil was out of spec.  Not the oils fault but the operation of the engine with the high fuel dilution being one of the main issues.  I have since deactivated the AFM in the Burb and it will be interesting to see if that has effected the UOA.  Now in my Silverado I have not, but I do drive it in manual mode here in town for the most part and that keeps it from going into DFM as well as keeps it from auto stop.

[Grumpy Bear]

3 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

I was doing 15k oil changes in the Suburban but the UOA's were coming back showing the oil was out of spec.  Not the oils fault but the operation of the engine with the high fuel dilution being one of the main issues.

 

Yes sir! 

 

It's hard to know what you don't test for. Had another owner using the same oil but not testing gone 150K without an issue he noticed he would have concluded he hadn't an issue. GM 3.6 timing chain issues show up under conditions like these. but would have little effect on the Gen 1 SBC. 

 

 

[KARNUT]

I must be the luckiest person around when it comes to automobiles. I’ve had a lot. 3/4 were high performance factory or self made. The most perplexing and latest was my 92 Chevy truck. A blown 383 highly modified lowered truck. I owned it 12 years a neighbor now has it. It changed my way of thinking on oil usage.  It used even now going on 14 years. One qt of oil every 500 miles. I put 20K miles on it during my time. It was my toy. Originally I started planning on putting a LS conversion into the truck. So I beat on it pretty good. Maybe it was the Amsoil. Sometimes I went two years between oil changes. No respect for the oil burner. No leak no smoke. I figured the cats took care of that. They never clogged. Total mystery. Most of the time with the twelve LB boost pulley. Finally I just lost interest. High performance wasn’t number one anymore. Enter Avalanche. 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, customboss said:

Making an engine oil that does more than " lift and separate" and cool is overkill to compensate for the realities of our fuels in IC engines that have to meet emissions and filtered venting. 

 

You're painting a picture on the head of a pin with a floor broom sir. 

 

 

2 hours ago, customboss said:

Hey Grumpy most of the readers fathers here were born AFTER catalytic converters were mandated......yes Sir, we are old. 

 

I forget how old I am sometimes until some whippersnapper reminds me 

 

Oh how did we ever survive carburetors, distributors, two piece plugs and carbon impregnated cotton rope spark plug wires? 

 

Overkill I can live with. Not up to the task...not so much. That said I do not expect any oil to 'handle' out of tune or in poor repair. I do expect it handle 'normal for the times'. 

 

 

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

You're painting a picture on the head of a pin with a floor broom sir. 

 

 

 

I forget how old I am sometimes until some whippersnapper reminds me 

 

Oh how did we ever survive carburetors, distributors, two piece plugs and carbon impregnated cotton rope spark plug wires? /cdn-cgi/mirage/4c501c2428596dd2e97c25ce1c5ef7f3f6931c0d-1663089660-1800/1280/https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/uploads/emoticons/default_crazy.gif

 

Overkill I can live with. Not up to the task...not so much. That said I do not expect any oil to 'handle' out of tune or in poor repair. I do expect it handle 'normal for the times'. 

 

 

No Sir. I’m answering the question diyer2 asked about how to test for fuel quality practically. After 40+ years I tire of explaining to folks who don’t care….Or think they know better. 

[customboss]

3 hours ago, diyer2 said:

Well you go to testing oil, just can't swallow that being I have never had problems by just changing fluids. Are my motors running at optimum levels, maybe not but never had a failure. Fluids and replacing parts, like spark plugs  before required service works for me. 

YMMV

Well, I answered your question.

 

I made a living analyzing automotive materials. When someone asks a question I give an answer based on lab work, engine test cells data, teardown of those test engines to correlate to the oil and fuels analysis and finally fleet oil analysis. 

Not personal anecdotes. 

[KARNUT]

20 minutes ago, customboss said:

No Sir. I’m answering the question diyer2 asked about how to test for fuel quality practically. After 40+ years I tire of explaining to folks who don’t care….Or think they know better. 

Until tomorrow. You two are over my head. I can only go by experience. Sometimes without explanation. I’ll try to keep up.

[diyer2]

I get oil testing is the best way, but if the oil level isn't rising, oil dilution is minimal on our 19 Honda CRV turbo it took 6% dilution to raise the oil level to make it noticable confirmed by a UOA and if the coolant level isn't going down a noticeable amount good enough.

If the tailpipe isn't puffing white, blue or black smoke good enough. 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

On 9/13/2022 at 7:29 AM, diyer2 said:

No matter what fluid you choose, the determining factor is how often are you going to change it IMO. 

 

 

Mineral Oil (Group I)

Mineral Oil (Group II)

Mineral Oil (Group II+)

Group III

Group III+

POA (Group IV)

AN (Group V)

Group III/AN

PAO/AN

Estolides

Ester

 

Oxidative resistance is two parts. What the base oil brings to the party (The majority) and what the antioxidant adds to it. That number in the manual is based off the OEM recommendation for oil type and that it based on their goals, not yours. 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

8 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

Mineral Oil (Group I)

Mineral Oil (Group II)

Mineral Oil (Group II+)

Group III

Group III+

POA (Group IV)

AN (Group V)

Group III/AN

PAO/AN

Estolides

Ester

 

Oxidative resistance is two parts. What the base oil brings to the party (The majority) and what the antioxidant adds to it. That number in the manual is based off the OEM recommendation for oil type and that it based on their goals, not yours. 

 

 

 

 

 

 two types: alkyl and aryldithiophosphate. The alkyl variety offered a higher degree of wear protection and the aryl variety offered more effective protection against oil oxidation (thermal breakdown) so he(Torco) decided to use both.

 

Tribofilm Formation, Friction and Wear-Reducing Properties of Some Phosphorus-Containing Antiwear Additives | Tribology Letters (springer.com)

 

In every study I read the point is made that wear and the additives used to lessen it are in focus because of the REDUCTION IN VISCOSITY employed to increase fuel economy. 

 

What do you think the lesson is there?  

[OnTheReel]

21 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 In every study I read the point is made that wear and the additives used to lessen it are in focus because of the REDUCTION IN VISCOSITY employed to increase fuel economy. 

 

What do you think the lesson is there?  

Gonna be a tough one to learn for most people, I think. Everyone on the internet still seems convinced that the lower viscosity oils actually protect better by way of the “improved flow”. We saw firsthand how flawed that thinking is in my own truck’s samples.

[Grumpy Bear]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:20 PM, OnTheReel said:

Gonna be a tough one to learn for most people, I think. Everyone on the internet still seems convinced that the lower viscosity oils actually protect better by way of the “improved flow”. We saw firsthand how flawed that thinking is in my own truck’s samples.

 

 

 

What Has Changed with PCMO and Why Should You Be Aware? - Archer Lubricants - Archer Lubricants News (archeroil.com)

 

This link list the changes in engine technology, the failure point, the impact on lubrication and the driver for the change. 

 

Note the roll lower viscosity plays in EVERY case. 

 

Oil Analysis - Archer Lubricants (archeroil.com)