Another oil thread

[Grumpy Bear]

I care about three things in a UOA. 1.) Viscosity, 2.) The TBN/TAN relationship and 3.) Cleanliness/ISO code. If one of those is amiss, I look at some other things. Like yes, 'flagged' results, like Glycol. 

 

Let's look at a few things. Moden Engines. What does that mean? Tighter fuel and spark control. Use of Roller cams vs flat tappet and of course 'low tension' ring packages. VVT isn't really new. Rhoads Lifter ring a bell? As far as metallurgy, nothing has changed since the 'brittle' point was found in the WWII era. Some new alloys but nothing moving the needle in automotive. DLH ring treatments currently are a step backward but have promise. Surface finish has gotten finer. A plus. Fuel and spark more tightly controlled. Also, a plus. 

 

Most of what has happened to the modern ICE has nothing to do with the 'science' and a LOT to do with legislation. 

 

Someone comes up with a better mouse trap for ZDDP, I'm all ears. But until they do, what has worked for decades doesn't all the sudden stop working because motors are "modern'. If they had something, it would be mainstream, not testing on the public in a back room blend or two, here and there. A private test of such a blend for a few thousand miles isn't proving anything. Give me a million miles and you have my attention. Heck, give me half that. 

 

GDI didn't create more soot. It created a more precise cold start control that leads to LESS soot. It just so happens the valve deposits can't be washed away by fuel detergents with GDI is employed as a standalone. D'OH Hommer. It led to higher combustion efficiency.... less soot. it IS he point of GDI. 

 

EGR didn't cause MORE nitration. It limits it. How? By reducing EXCESS O2 in the combustion chamber and lowering the chamber temps below the reaction initiation requirement. Ya can't make more Nitrogen Dioxide with less O2. You can't bake a cake with the oven off. Which is the target of EGR. Dioxide not Monoxide. Ever check the AFR COMMAND value in your 'modern motor"?  It ain't 14.7.

 

 

BOSH O2 sensors are precise enough to use as a calibration standard and yet can't be relied upon in a motor controlled by a computer?   

 

ZDDP to Detergent ratios are very well know. This isn't new and it isn't the result of 'modern motors'. Pepper is approaching 180K with "like new" oil pressure and low oil consumption using these "EVIL High ZDDP/Detergent OIL's" made by idiot blenders on reasonable OCI's.  Honda's a 100K higher. And every example I examine as clean as the day it was assembled.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Enjoy: 

 

Excessive Oil Consumption Isn't Normal - Consumer Reports

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Harvesting Data

 

One thing I gleaned from the Consumer Reports article was oil consumption is not normal. In fact, it is rare. 1 to 2% rate of the entire half a million vehicle 'sample population'. It is 'unit specific'. This motor and that motor. Not all motors.  The called them the "Dirty Thirty". Not all of the offenders, just the cream of the crop. 

 

In a separate Consumer Reports posting the GM 2.4 and Ecotec3 5.3 just missed the cut.

 

Circling back to " 1 to 2% rate of the entire half a million vehicle 'sample population'"; this percentage INCLUDES the Dirty Thirty and all those the missed the cut. Meaning absent those models' excessive oil consumption is almost nonexistent. It how averages work. 

 

So, let's give this a "Rational Test". As most cars today are GDI and most don't use excessive oil, is GDI the ROOT cause?   

 

As most cars today use low tension rings, is that the root cause? Ultra-light Full Synthetic oils requirements? Piston cooling jets? All common. 

 

How about the fact the study shows that even among those that have the highest percentage of failures, Audi A4 2L turbo; half of those did not suffer excessively. 

 

What is the one thing this study cannot collect data on?

 

 

Edited April 16, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Data, data who's got the data? 

 

Rarely do we get such a large data set to work with. From the Consumer Reports survey the worst GM's didn't make the "Dirty Thirty" list, the least of which places the worst GM somewhere under 3% of all units. 

 

Yet on this site you would swear it was more like a certainty. That had me thinking about consumer reviews of things like Engine Flushes. Few get bashed harder than Auto-Rx. A product I know nothing about but have been reading about. Talk about drawing haters and lovers. Wow! 

 

One guy uses this product and says it cures whatever ails ya. Another says, "It didn't do squat, snake oil". 

 

I have no idea, but I do know something about consumer reviews. The are done by people who have zero expertise in thing they are reviewing. It is purely a 'likes' generated pole of stupid doing stupid things. 

 

 

 

Questions. When your motor starts using oil, is it because the rings are stuck? Ring lands are damaged? Turbocharger shaft seal is leaking? Valve seals/guides have given up the ghost? Motor was overheated and rings lost tension? Bores are polished or worn? Ring/rings are broken? Did you eliminate all leaks? Do a die test? Including internal to the inlet manifold? PCV/CCV system in good order?  Did you do an endoscope? Compression test, dry and wet? A leak down test? Do you have support labs? What do you know and how do you know it? 

 

If the rings are stuck and the product frees them and you stop using oil, Hey! Greatest stuff on the planet. If the bores are polished, scored or worn oval NOTHING short of a rebuild will stop the usage but that guy swears the products is 'snake oil'. 

 

What good is a consumer review? I even looked up reviews of the review.  More click bait garbage. Regurgitation of the same half dozen reviews in a new picture frame selling the same stink. 

 

People choose an OCI this way. An oil this way. Tire rotation intervals this way. Hell, a wife this way. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

The filter breakdown in this video is amazing. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

What is a review worth? 

 

Best Engine Flush (Review & Buying Guide) in 2023 | The Drive

 

Scroll down this writers list to "CRC Salt Terminator Engine Flush" and when you are done laughing yourself silly ask yourself the title of this post again. 

[Black02Silverado]

On 4/20/2024 at 7:45 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

The filter breakdown in this video is amazing. 

 

 

Auto-RX makes sense, in that it works over time. Your engine didn't get dirty inside over night so how can it be cleaned in just 15 minutes of idle time.  I did use this product a long time ago.  For some reason I didn't see any difference, but then, it was a simple observation through the oil fill with a flash light. LOL

[Grumpy Bear]

10 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

Auto-RX makes sense, in that it works over time. Your engine didn't get dirty inside over night so how can it be cleaned in just 15 minutes of idle time.  I did use this product a long time ago.  For some reason I didn't see any difference, but then, it was a simple observation through the oil fill with a flash light. LOL

 

Since Dizzy uses so much oil a 3K mineral oil cleaning was still beyond her ability so I broke it into two 1,500-mile segments. Yea, cost twice as much. I'm good with that. 

 

At the end of the first segment the filter was caked and crushed. This is abnormal.  

 

 

 

 

This was after 10K miles of Valvoline R&P and over 40K with HPL SAE40 EC and one change of CUMMINS Restore. BG Products EPR and GUNK motor flushes. Two GM top soaks. About the only thing that did work was KREEN and that was very short lived.... twice. 

 

I'm about 2,500 into the ARX and while there has been zero improvement in oil consumption there are some rather startling other effects. Blow by is DRASTICLY reduced. PCV system is dry both on the clean side and dirty. In fact, I'm now running an .050 orifice. Smaller that factory and have better crankcase vacuum.  

 

A 3-4-mpg or 10%+ improvement in fuel economy. Oil is cleaner now at 1,500 than it was at 500. Look at the 12-point moving average and the tank-to-tank numbers. Nine consecutive tanks over 30 mpg and 10 mph faster than previous like numbers. Very low noise in the data. That's nuts! (three-year chart). Timing cover seal has quit leaking. No external leaks anywhere. Rings are seated and sealed.  I have more power on tip in than I had matted that last couple of years. 

 

What I think is the valve seals are toast and it is a major job in this motor to replace them.  

 

[Grumpy Bear]

 

 

Hens Teeth

 

There are darn few oils that will meet VW 504/507 (2020/2021), Porsche C30 AND API SN+/SP specs all at the same time. What does that mean? VW and Porsche have very high benchmarks for cleanliness and wear. API sets the bar for LSPI issues. Something the other two are less concerned with. Combine them and your motor will thank you. 

 

AMSOIL has one. Red Line has two. Mobil 1 has two. HPL has zero, Castrol one. 

 

AMSOIL Euro 0W30

Red Line Euro 0W30, 5W30 (recently reformulated for LSPI). 

Mobil 1 ESP 0W30, 5W30

Castrol Edge Euro 5W30 K 

 

IF LSPI isn't a concern and you don't need the SN+/SP low calcium qualifications that opens things up quite a bit. 

 

The list allows you to clear the bar but there is a pecking order. Mobil is the cheapest and most shear sensitive. Red Line the highest Polyol content and greatest solvency and the highest HTHS values. AMSOIL falls in between and has the highest TBN. I know little about the Castrol offering. There isn't a bad choice here just a difference in OCI determined by UOA for each unit.  

 

NOTHING stamped Dexos anything will outperform. Dexos has a different agenda. C.A.F.E., and getting you back to buy another 'designed to fail' spec.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[MaverickZ71]

On 5/5/2024 at 11:02 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Since Dizzy uses so much oil a 3K mineral oil cleaning was still beyond her ability so I broke it into two 1,500-mile segments. Yea, cost twice as much. I'm good with that. 

 

At the end of the first segment the filter was caked and crushed. This is abnormal.  

 

 

 

 

This was after 10K miles of Valvoline R&P and over 40K with HPL SAE40 EC and one change of CUMMINS Restore. BG Products EPR and GUNK motor flushes. Two GM top soaks. About the only thing that did work was KREEN and that was very short lived.... twice. 

 

I'm about 2,500 into the ARX and while there has been zero improvement in oil consumption there are some rather startling other effects. Blow by is DRASTICLY reduced. PCV system is dry both on the clean side and dirty. In fact, I'm now running an .050 orifice. Smaller that factory and have better crankcase vacuum.  

 

A 3-4-mpg or 10%+ improvement in fuel economy. Oil is cleaner now at 1,500 than it was at 500. Look at the 12-point moving average and the tank-to-tank numbers. Nine consecutive tanks over 30 mpg and 10 mph faster than previous like numbers. Very low noise in the data. That's nuts! (three-year chart). Timing cover seal has quit leaking. No external leaks anywhere. Rings are seated and sealed.  I have more power on tip in than I had matted that last couple of years. 

 

What I think is the valve seals are toast and it is a major job in this motor to replace them.  

 

Used AutoRX for a year-and-a-half back in about 2012. Made no difference whatsoever. Had high hopes for a couple years of Valvoline R&R upcoming--$$$ oil already purchased. Think I'm coming to finally realize there is no hope, if you're one of the "lucky" ones to get the crap GM parts assembled by mr. badwrench, you're forever mechanically screwed and lubricants/chemicals/snake oils won't change that, even if you study 10,000 posts here. 

[Grumpy Bear]

9 hours ago, MaverickZ71 said:

Used AutoRX for a year-and-a-half back in about 2012. Made no difference whatsoever. Had high hopes for a couple years of Valvoline R&R upcoming--$$$ oil already purchased. Think I'm coming to finally realize there is no hope, if you're one of the "lucky" ones to get the crap GM parts assembled by mr. badwrench, you're forever mechanically screwed and lubricants/chemicals/snake oils won't change that, even if you study 10,000 posts here. 

 

Auto-Rx:

 

Bret, I think this is about managing expectations. For me Auto-Rx was a very effective cleaner and did free the rings and restore compression, performance and fuel economy. Also stopped a seal leak.

 

BUT what it can't do is repair or replace bad valve seals or put the hatch back in a polished cylinder. Can't put tension back in rings that have been over heated. Did as advertised. Didn't do what it can't and never claimed to do. 

 

Ten years of "dry" shelf DEXOS oils dried out my valve seals and even at 5K OCI's these DEXOS oils laid out enough deposit to stick rings, plug the CCV orifice and cam cover baffles and take up space in the pan. 

 

As it turned out for Dizzy the valve seals were too far gone to restore thus cleaning the debris the was hindering oil migration made usage by that path worse. 

 

KREEN:

 

This was also very effective at freeing the rings. Hard on seals. I should have never done the pint in the oil treat. Although it removed allot of soft deposits and varnish, in the oil shrunk seals. Now if used as an overnight ring soak as a standalone this would be a good first step to an Auto-Rx 2 bottle treatment. Overnight soak. Moring run in and change oil charging Auto-Rx. 

 

BG EPR. Gunk, Kerosene, Seafoam etc: 

 

Straight up solvents of one type or another. Dilutes viscosity to solve out soft stuff. If your motor signaled it has an issue these will be too late to the party to be of much use. Might be okay for flushing out a motor before tear down to make your job easier.  

 

HPL SAE30/40 EC:

 

This proved to be very good at removing the very 'soft' stuff. Sludge. Did nothing for the hard carbonaceous materials. Ran this product nearly 40K miles but it never freed rings. 

 

TRIAX S-7 (and products like it) :

 

Overbased detergent and strong dose of AW. Here's some snake oil. Both surface active and out of balance doing what your oil has already been doing if you think you need it. Failing you. I have some if you would like to buy it  

 

CUMMINS Valvoline Restore: 

 

Could never use this product long enough to get a solid read on it and then went out of supply. I have seen the case studies on the CUMMINS ISX15 engines which showed a very positive result. This result based on the solvency of Esters and a proper dispersant package. I expect but do not know that this product and HPL EC are similar in intent but the CVR more effective on the hard stuff. Just a guess. 

 

Valvoline Restore & Protect: 

 

10K miles and all I had to show for it was a hint of 'pepper' like carbonaceous materials. The claim is it takes 3 to 4 times as long to achieve its result. Careful reading of the Valvoline study shows a much-MUCH longer time to Restore than most engines have. More of a prophylactic than a cure. I'm not sold on it as a daily usage oil either.  

 

Conclusion: 

 

The most effective and safe cleaners use the same technology as the best oils. ESTERS. Pepper has run side by side with DIZZY for the last ten years. Difference in maintenance has been oil selection. Difference in cleanliness is as day is to night. Ditto motor life, oil consumption, economy and any other measure you care to use common to the trade. 

 

I sacrificed a good low mile motor to the DEXOS/API gods for this information. Use it, ignore it as you please. 

 

In the end and as a lifelong experiment my experience has been ALWAYS that motors, I used "dry" OEM shelf oils in failed before 100K. Some before 80K. I call that oil failure, not motor failure. 

 

And those I used my ester boutiques in on reasonable OCI's "Take a licking and keep on ticking" for hundreds of thousands.

 

There is a very short list of 'shelf' oils that are not "dry", and I've listed them before. 

 

 

 

[VicFirth]

On 5/7/2024 at 1:05 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

Hens Teeth

 

There are darn few oils that will meet VW 504/507 (2020/2021), Porsche C30 AND API SN+/SP specs all at the same time. What does that mean? VW and Porsche have very high benchmarks for cleanliness and wear. API sets the bar for LSPI issues. Something the other two are less concerned with. Combine them and your motor will thank you. 

 

AMSOIL has one. Red Line has two. Mobil 1 has two. HPL has zero, Castrol one. 

 

AMSOIL Euro 0W30

Red Line Euro 0W30, 5W30 (recently reformulated for LSPI). 

Mobil 1 ESP 0W30, 5W30

Castrol Edge Euro 5W30 K 

 

IF LSPI isn't a concern and you don't need the SN+/SP low calcium qualifications that opens things up quite a bit. 

 

The list allows you to clear the bar but there is a pecking order. Mobil is the cheapest and most shear sensitive. Red Line the highest Polyol content and greatest solvency and the highest HTHS values. AMSOIL falls in between and has the highest TBN. I know little about the Castrol offering. There isn't a bad choice here just a difference in OCI determined by UOA for each unit.  

 

NOTHING stamped Dexos anything will outperform. Dexos has a different agenda. C.A.F.E., and getting you back to buy another 'designed to fail' spec.

 

 

 

 

Amsoil has very good solvency.  Their oxidation values range from 50-70, but more importantly they're apparently using some type of proprietary ester (hundreds of different ester types).  Amsoil cleans very well.  

 

Mobil is rumored to be using ANs now in most if not all their formulations.  The 0w40 and ESP used to contain POE and on the PDS would state "Exceptional cleaning power of dirty engines".  That language is still used but the oxidation values are now under 10 across the board.  They are mostly likely using ANs which clean very well. 

Edited May 9, 2024 by VicFirth

[VicFirth]

Good presentation on Alkylated Napthalenes.

 

PowerPoint Presentation (stle.org)

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

@VicFirth, you have something newer than this for Mobil 1 ESP 0W30? 

 

[VicFirth]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

@VicFirth, you have something newer than this for Mobil 1 ESP 0W30? 

 

Yeah this is the latest version which came out in late 2023.  The Mobil 1 0w40 also has the same oxidation.  No moly in the latest SP of ESP either.  People generally assume Mobil uses AN.