Another oil thread

[VicFirth]

 

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, VicFirth said:

 

 

Guess I'm the ant at the picnic.  Let me say this up front. Good points all.

 

Now, having said that, let me toss this out there. SYNERGY

 

It isn't this or that. It's this and that and that and that. There is no perfect base. There are some darn good blends. There are some that are basic. Some worse. A few much worse. 

 

There is no perfect add pack. There are add packs that work well with specific blends of bases. 

 

There isn't a Nirvana. There is best KNOW current compromise. 

 

What works against this is PROFIT MARGINS. Greed is obscuring the truth. 

 

Mobil tossing POE under the bus was not a performance move. It was a profit move. They have been in and out of the Tri-synthetic market (PAO/POE/AN) more often than Uncle Vinny in a $20 hooker.

 

Dad and Uncle pushed Fords past 750 K and to a MILLON on straight cut dinosaur oils on REALY SHORT OCI's.

 

Matching a chemistry to an OCI is key.  The fight is over OXIDATION (OCI) not wear. 90% of the public doesn't even care about wear rates. They trade to often and don't give a rat's back side about the next guy. Puppy Pee with get you to 60K.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Guess I'm the ant at the picnic.  Let me say this up front. Good points all.

 

Now, having said that, let me toss this out there. SYNERGY

 

It isn't this or that. It's this and that and that and that. There is no perfect base. There are some darn good blends. There are some that are basic. Some worse. A few much worse. 

 

There is no perfect add pack. There are add packs that work well with specific blends of bases. 

 

There isn't a Nirvana. There is best KNOW current compromise. 

 

What works against this is PROFIT MARGINS. Greed is obscuring the truth. 

 

Mobil tossing POE under the bus was not a performance move. It was a profit move. They have been in and out of the Tri-synthetic market (PAO/POE/AN) more often than Uncle Vinny in a $20 hooker.

 

Dad and Uncle pushed Fords past 750 K and to a MILLON on straight cut dinosaur oils on REALY SHORT OCI's.

 

Matching a chemistry to an OCI is key.  The fight is over OXIDATION (OCI) not wear. 90% of the public doesn't even care about wear rates. They trade to often and don't give a rat's back side about the next guy. Puppy Pee with get you to 60K.

 

 

 

 

You had mentioned in response to my longevity question about changing the engine once it failed. You’re answer was the body is giving up do to the winter in your area. It sounds like a daily driver in your neck of the woods is good for 8-10 years max. Probably 200K miles for most people. 5K oil changes with most any synthetic will do the job. For most vehicles. The general feeling across the board is most vehicles will reach 200K miles sold today. Even after all your efforts it seemed you had an oil burner after 100K miles. I wonder if it would have made 200K if you did nothing but added oil. 

[customboss]

I'd like to see this granular of a discussion about gasolines and diesel fuels. Then look at what they do to our engines that our oils can't correct for.    Grandaddys fuels and their post combustion products were not recirculated into his engines, they went out the draft tube. Remember the dark part of the blacktop and concrete that was in the middle of the lane???? That's were all that crap went we now re-ingest.  

[KARNUT]

2 minutes ago, customboss said:

I'd like to see this granular of a discussion about gasolines and diesel fuels. Then look at what they do to our engines that our oils can't correct for.    Grandaddys fuels and their post combustion products were not recirculated into his engines, they went out the draft tube. Remember the dark part of the blacktop and concrete that was in the middle of the lane???? That's were all that crap went we now re-ingest.  

My last collector vehicle was a 64 elcamino. It had the canister oil filter and that tube. You could smell the blow by. We still have a 2000 Ford 7.3 and a 98 Ram with the Cummins. My mother just passed 240K miles with it. They both have been bulletproof. All free of the latest emissions. Both get better fuel mileage than the current models. My brother has about 6 newer Ford and GM diesel for backup for his ROW crews. He used to keep two around. Non are as reliable with the latest emissions. There’re different animals after being deleted. 

[VicFirth]

 

I agree Grumpy synergy is key.  There is no chemical panacea.  

 

Mobil 1 has excellent oxidation resistance.   

 

 

Edited May 12, 2024 by VicFirth

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, KARNUT said:

You had mentioned in response to my longevity question about changing the engine once it failed. You’re answer was the body is giving up do to the winter in your area. It sounds like a daily driver in your neck of the woods is good for 8-10 years max. Probably 200K miles for most people. 5K oil changes with most any synthetic will do the job. For most vehicles. The general feeling across the board is most vehicles will reach 200K miles sold today. Even after all your efforts it seemed you had an oil burner after 100K miles. I wonder if it would have made 200K if you did nothing but added oil. 

 

If you recall a UOA at 80K showed the motor was 'eating" itself. Iron. Aluminum. Stuck rings. Simply adding oil would not have freed them and the destruction would be complete and in shorter order than long. Lack of ring seal drastically shortens oil life and my response to that was a drastically shorter OCI. Again, based on UOAs at the time. Viscosity break was horrible. So, if I had stayed on 5K OCI's and simply added, this motor would have mechanically failed well before 150K. A lesson learned in my teens (first few cars). 

 

Pepper is now 9 years old and as solid as she was the day I bought her, 180K pretty soon. Very different life in the exact same environment. Daisy is 16 years old and will pass for new even in the nooks and crannies. Last thee Hondas went 18 to 20 years before the body died. All in daily service. 

 

We've been looking at a replacement for Dizzy and it has been heartbreaking. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that I can do the repairs required and be half as deep in cost and get twice the vehicle as a result. Including the body work. 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Fuels would be a really interesting topic to dive deeper into IF we had the choices we have in motor oils. And I guess to a certain extent we do. We just have less information to work with. I have one Flex Fuel capable vehicle and I use E85 in it. The remaining ones I use Top Tier and occasional PEA or Propylated, Aminated systems cleaners. Techron, Red Line S1, AMSOIL P.I., GUMOUT Regane. 

 

Sidebar. As a motor ages and ring seal fades and inlet guides weep oil ingress to the power cylinder increases the octane requirement. Not due to carbon build and compression pressure increase, although that can be a player, but because oil mixed with fuel KILLS octane rating.   ECU KR response can only take out so much timing. 

[KARNUT]

12 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Fuels would be a really interesting topic to dive deeper into IF we had the choices we have in motor oils. And I guess to a certain extent we do. We just have less information to work with. I have one Flex Fuel capable vehicle and I use E85 in it. The remaining ones I use Top Tier and occasional PEA or Propylated, Aminated systems cleaners. Techron, Red Line S1, AMSOIL P.I., GUMOUT Regane. 

 

Sidebar. As a motor ages and ring seal fades and inlet guides weep oil ingress to the power cylinder increases the octane requirement. Not due to carbon build and compression pressure increase, although that can be a player, but because oil mixed with fuel KILLS octane rating.   ECU KR response can only take out so much timing. 

I’m probably happily stuck with my avalanche for life. I keep looking, that never stops. If I find a nicer one for a reasonable price I’d buy it. Same with the other two. I can’t believe how well my wife’s car has aged. I’m in good climate so that’s not a factor. I’m good with hanging on to them now. 

[customboss]

There is no oxidation issue in current spark engines. There is less oxidation issues in compression engines. 
 

Nitration yes. There are no good anti noxidant additives but the oil and chemistry industry want you the consumer with a bit of knowledge about oil analysis to believe anti oxidants which are cheap really matter. Food for thought. More marketing crap. 

[VicFirth]

14 hours ago, customboss said:

There is no oxidation issue in current spark engines. There is less oxidation issues in compression engines. 
 

Nitration yes. There are no good anti noxidant additives but the oil and chemistry industry want you the consumer with a bit of knowledge about oil analysis to believe anti oxidants which are cheap really matter. Food for thought. More marketing crap. 

Very interesting. 

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Very interesting. 

 

Mobil Oil on Nitration:

 

 

[customboss]

On 5/11/2024 at 9:45 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Mobil Oil on Nitration:

 

 

Once again Grumpy you are posting info on BURNING METHANE via spark engines.  Not applicable necessarily to our engines using gasoline or gasoiline ethanol mixes. 

 

When I worked for WOO sprint car race series as the oil analysis rep and we burned methanol in our 410 engines before switching to ethanol we had a separate set of issues. 

 

You can't just go to interwebs and pull spurious unrelated tech data to prove your point which is based on lack of R&D level knowledge. 

 

Gosh I sound smart again, the meds are working....better living through chemistry MOFO's! Story of my life. 

 

Learn for yourselves kids.  Take an oil analysis from any cheapass source you can find that can keep their FTIR tuned accurately. ( check out RUSH truck centers for a cheap source but make sure the techs and mechs haven't kicked it or blown cigarette smoke into their little box size analyzer before they run your sample)   Sample your engine oil brand clean and run against a used sample looking at NITRATION vs OXIDATION  tell me which one shows movement purely via starting value vs ending on used.   Thats not an accurate reading via science interpretation but one that will convince.  

 

Nitration ambient clean will NOT carry over to a fired engine oil .  So consider starting nitration 0 on clean oil via FTIR, Near IR, or Raman.

 

Oxidation ambient is a measure of clean oil construct but the used value won't rise much more than 5 abs units because oxidation is low in modern engines first and secondly oxidation phase inhibiters are so cheap and effective they will neutralize any harmful oxidation until the oil is overused OR there is a serious fuel or mechanical issue.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VicFirth]

19 F-150 3.5EB, 14.4k HPL No VII Euro 5w30

 

14k miles on HPL No VII Euro 5w30.  My question is, if the virgin oxidation value starts at 23 for this oil, but is now 48, is that a problem or sign of oxidation?  I have noticed that Amsoil's virgin oxidation number doesn't change much from virgin to new.  

 

SAMPLE INFORMATION	Unit of Measurement	Reject Limit	Result
Sample Date			03 May 2024
Machine Age	miles		82988
Oil Age	miles		14394
Oil Changed			Not Changed
CONTAMINATION
Fuel		>4.0	<1.0
Water		>0.2	NEG
Glycol			NEG
WEAR METALS
Iron	ppm	>150	29
Chromium	ppm	>20	<1
Nickel	ppm	>5	0
Titanium	ppm		<1
Silver	ppm	>2	0
Aluminum	ppm	>40	15
Lead	ppm	>50	0
Copper	ppm	>155	11
Tin	ppm	>10	<1
Vanadium	ppm		0
Cadmium	ppm		0
ADDITIVES
Boron	ppm	200	53
Barium	ppm		3
Molybdenum	ppm	85	732
Manganese	ppm		4
Magnesium	ppm	525	1162
Calcium	ppm	4300	2381
Phosphorus	ppm	1000	862
Zinc	ppm	1100	991
Sulfur	ppm	20200	7511
CONTAMINANTS
Silicon	ppm	>30	25
Sodium	ppm	>400	10
Potassium	ppm	>20	1
INFRA-RED
Soot %	%		0.1
Nitration	Abs/cm	>20	21.6
Sulfation	Abs/.1mm	>30	55.9
FLUID DEGRADATION
Oxidation	Abs/.1mm	>25	48.1
Base Number (BN)	mg KOH/g	11.0	7.78
VISUAL
White Metal	scalar	NONE	NONE
Yellow Metal	scalar	NONE	NONE
Precipitate	scalar	NONE	NONE
Silt	scalar	NONE	NONE
Debris	scalar	NONE	NONE
Sand/Dirt	scalar	NONE	NONE
Appearance	scalar	NORML	NORML
Odor	scalar	NORML	NORML
Emulsified Water	scalar	>0.2	NEG
Free Water	scalar		NEG
FLUID PROPERTIES
Visc @ 100°C	cSt	11.19	12.7

[customboss]

The HPL is cleaning the heck outta that EB carbon maker. It’s real oxidation and the HPL is measuring a SAE 40 because of it. 
Detectable soot = cleaning going on and or your tune efficiency not  optimum. I’d change out the oil filter and top up. Change plugs , air filter, and ask HPL to do a GC for fuel’s dilution. No way this is an accurate fuel’s dilution. 
Thanks for sharing.