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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted

In my personal vehicles, those I am primary driver of I chose an oil with a very high T1 limit, PAO/POE based. I further increase the T1 limit by rolling back operation temperature via oil cooler, water thermostat setting and driving habits all of which SLOW the propagation rate. I drive the nail in the coffin with a shorter OCI assuring I never deplete the oxidation/acid add package. 

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customboss
customboss

Well, I answered your question.   I made a living analyzing automotive materials. When someone asks a question I give an answer based on lab work, engine test cells data, teardown of those t

Grumpy Bear
Grumpy Bear

Since Dizzy uses so much oil a 3K mineral oil cleaning was still beyond her ability so I broke it into two 1,500-mile segments. Yea, cost twice as much. I'm good with that.    At the end of

KARNUT
KARNUT

Until tomorrow. You two are over my head. I can only go by experience. Sometimes without explanation. I’ll try to keep up.🥵

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted

Mobil 1 ESP 5W30

Back of the bottle

image.png.15fe4dcc890e7db8b18b136c10807493.png

 

To carry ALL designations then: 

HTHS greater than or equal to 3.5 cP

SA less than or equal to 0.8%

P between 0.07 and 0.08%

S equal to or greater than 0.3%

TBN equal to or greater than 7.0 

 

This oil Recommended by ExxonMobil for applications requiring ACEA C2 (interesting) 

C2 is identical to C3 in requirements except for HTHS wherein the C2 spec is 2.9 cP

 

A worthwhile read.

Low SAPS Oils | Full vs Mid vs Low SAPS oils | Certas Lubricants (certaslubricantsolutions.com)

 

 

 

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

This oil Recommended by ExxonMobil for applications requiring ACEA C2  

image.png.ca14e3d16c55ad3de5b1079e0a430e58.png

 

WHY?

🤔

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VicFirth Enthusiast

VicFirth

Posted
Posted

"The EC30 cleaned so quickly on our 2000 Volvo V70 that I’d be reluctant to start with straight HPL.

I prefer slow cleaning by using EC30 or EC40.

Picture shown after running 5 quarts M1 0W40, 1 quart EC30 for 5,000 miles."

 

 

image.thumb.png.1d72462b4f381166fe0b6423e33882ea.png

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VicFirth Enthusiast

VicFirth

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

@VicFirth, You, seem to have a larger library than I. What do you have for a new and relevant VOA for: 

 

Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W40?

 

 

 

This was posted on one of the Porsche forums.  The Noack is 8.6%.  It's said to be better than the FS 0w40.  X4 replated X3, I believe.  There is also a GT 0w40 oil.  

 

Mobil 1™ ESP X4 0W-40

 

image.thumb.png.438fabc1ffb0cd7f55532584215a1ce7.png

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted

Interesting 25 to 50% Shell GTL 

A list of non-ExxonMobil synthetic base oils (poly). Various PAO's. Source likely Euozone. 

A Shell Group III 

A splash of this and that Group II mineral based carriers for additives and a "proprietary detergent"....hummm. 

1% TMP Polyol solving some additive LOL 

 

OnTheReel Senior Enthusiast

OnTheReel

Posted
Posted

And that’s their “good” 0w40. The Supercar (DexosR) version leans heavier on GTL (50-75%) and the HTHS is only ~3.5 vs ~3.8 for the ESP. Seems a little weird trying to market that as a “track” oil…

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OnTheReel Senior Enthusiast

OnTheReel

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Interesting 25 to 50% Shell GTL 

A list of non-ExxonMobil synthetic base oils (poly). Various PAO's. Source likely Euozone. 

A Shell Group III 

A splash of this and that Group II mineral based carriers for additives and a "proprietary detergent"....hummm. 

1% TMP Polyol solving some additive LOL 

 

I was just thinking. I’ve seen a lot of Mobil 1 vs Pennzoil Platinum discussion over the years. Nowadays when the same GTL base stock is going into both “competing” brands, and additives are more or less determined by the specs they meet…it really seems pointless to even compare the vast majority of shelf oils. 
 

I really don’t like how either company formulates their oil. Most 0w40s would be better marketed as 0w30s at this point. Any duration of use drops them well into that range. The DexosR M1 is something along the lines of 9% VII so it’s no surprise I guess. ESP X3-X4 is somewhere around 7% IIRC.

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, OnTheReel said:

I was just thinking. I’ve seen a lot of Mobil 1 vs Pennzoil Platinum discussion over the years. Nowadays when the same GTL base stock is going into both “competing” brands, and additives are more or less determined by the specs they meet…it really seems pointless to even compare the vast majority of shelf oils. 
 

I really don’t like how either company formulates their oil. Most 0w40s would be better marketed as 0w30s at this point. Any duration of use drops them well into that range. The DexosR M1 is something along the lines of 9% VII so it’s no surprise I guess. ESP X3-X4 is somewhere around 7% IIRC.

 

They seem to be cranking out a new version almost every few months now and most are NOT backward compatible. If I have a need for a *W40 I'll stay with the Red Line HP line. Okay, unless it's Dizzy and using as fast as I can fill it :crackup:

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted

Viscosity, what a game!

 

Profilometer - Sealing Your Cylinders The Right Way

 

Rvk, the measure of oil holding capability. Bore polish is wear below the bottom of Rvk. Mirror smooth surfaces will not 'wet'. Even polar oils beads like water on waxed paint. Glaze is varnish filling the Rvk and Rk to the top of Rk. It has the same effect as bore polishing. No oil retention, not cylinder sealing. FYI. 

 

The load surface is that line at the top of Rk, bottom of Rpk, which is smooth across the plateau that is left when Rpk is 'bedded in'. The rings also have a 'texture' but not nearly as pronounced but wettable.

 

Between the plateau of the wall and that of the rings is where the film of oil the keeps these two parts APART is constantly being applied and wiped off. The oil IS THE SEAL, the finishes support that seal. 

 

The rings 'hydroplane' over this film of oil. The rings, thanks to the gaps, compress a small distance to accommodate the films THICKNESS (aka film strength, poor use of the word strength).

 

This is the basis for the Hersey Number. How thick that film is depends on the viscosity, resistance to being squeezed ever thinner. Speed, how fast the skier is going, and the load applied trying to squeeze the oil ever thinner. 

 

The part I want to focus on is the viscosity. In the Hersey number it is held as an entity with a singular value. It is not. It is dependent of both TEMPERATURE and SHEAR and the latter is a function of the chemistry. 

 

Oils that depend on VM's are not Newtonian Fluids. The definition of which is a fluid whose viscosity is NOT sensitive to shear RATE or the speed of the skier (piston speed). VM's change in their ability to maintain viscosity with the rate of shear. They SHEAR THIN. Some are better than others. Better is expensive. Cheap oils do not use best VM's and sadly, not all expensive oils do either. They are used when REQUIRED to meet a standard or an actionable claim. 

 

Let's digress a bit. The oil you are looking for will have enough viscosity to keep parts from touching parts for the fastest shear rate (piston speed/rpm) and heaviest load (cylinder pressure/foot to the mat) you will put the motor to at the maximum temperature your motor will generate. 

 

The OEM is looking for the viscosity that supports his C.A.F.E. requirement goals thus just enough to keep a film under what they believe will be the 'AVERAGE EXPECTED LOAD, SPEED AND HEAT' generated by Joe Average over the term of the warranty period. Yes, they know this number will generate more wear and they are good with that. It sells more vehicles and when they engineer with precision, it limits warranty claims. Enough to be profitable. So, the bean counters get a say in it as well. Actuaries, not engineering determine the line between the cost of failure and the cost of production. Engineering determines how to get to that goal. 

 

Overall, wear studies and GM has done a bunch of them and are published if you care to source and pay for them, have shown that the HTHS value is most reliable and beyond a value of 3.7 cP there is no benefit to any part of your motor. This value is the value of a current 15W40 or heavier oil by SAE J300 specifications. 

 

Well, we get reasonable life from motors on much lighter oil, right? Why? AW additives. ZDDP, ZDTP. 

 

OEM has raised operating temperatures. Increased BMEP, cylinder pressure with high compression and turbochargers. Diluted oil with DGI. Lowered ring sealing. Lowered AW additives. Lowered HTHS viscosity. Increased shear rate. Shortened warranty miles. All in an effort to increase CAFE and Emissions requirements. Then doubled the price. 

 

You can't get it all back, but you can claw some of it back. Enough to be useful with careful choices.

 

 

 

 

 

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VicFirth Enthusiast

VicFirth

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm using Amsoil SS 5w30 now

 

cSt 100c - 10.37

cSt 40c - 59.27

HT/HS - 3.11

Noack - 6.6%

Oxidation - 59

 

Additives:

Moly - 230

Boron - 370

Mg - 960

Ca - 1,289

P - 754

Zn - 855

 

 

 

Edited by VicFirth
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