PAO/POE Research by MSDS

[Grumpy Bear]

Recent research into another "Marketed AS a PAO/POE" oil got me thinking about honesty in marketing. So I looked up the MSDS for my current favorite AMSOIL SS 10W30 and got a surprise. 

 

AMSOIL SS

 

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/msds/atm.pdf

 

Go to section 3. Composition/information on ingredients and you will find heading the list at 50-55% CAS number 72623-87-1

Look up that CAS number and you read: 

 

EC number: 276-738-4 | CAS number: 72623-87-1 A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating light vacuum gas oil, heavy vacuum gas oil and solvent deasphalted residual oil with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst in a two stage process with dewaxing being carried out between the two stages.

 

Under the ChemDplus medical directory it's a bit clearer: 

 

• Lubricating oils, (petroleum), C20-50, hydrotreated neutral oil-based

 

This is definition of a Group II base oil. It does not say Hydrocracked. It says Hydrotreated. Saturated yes but but not reformed. WOW! 

 

Third on the list is: Distillates (petroleum), solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffinic. EC number: 265-169-7 | CAS number: 64742-65-0 A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by removal of normal paraffins from a petroleum fraction by solvent crystallization.

 

Solvent refined and dewaxed. Group I

 

Second on the list: 

Phosphorodithioic acid, O,O-di-C1-14-alkyl esters, zinc salts

68649-42-3 (CAS Number)

US EPA SRS

 

Or ZDDP in a ester carrier to the tune of 1-5% 

 

Listed under Toxicology is: Benzenamine, N-phenyl-, reaction products with 2,4,4-trimethylpentene. Ah this one I recognize. TMP Polyol Ester. How much? But enough to require reporting. Carrier for the ZDDP? Not enough for aniline suppression. 

 

This explains the use of a solvent dewaxed hydrotreated paraffin. Aniline point suppression. At this concentration, again 50-55%, there is not enough POE in this to keep additives in suspension. 

 

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Triax SRT

 

https://www.triaxlubricants.com/files/products/product_content/TRIAX_SYNERGY_SRT_Full_Synthetic_Oils_-_SDS-1.pdf 

 

Formula Mixture Chemical Name CAS-No Weight %

Highly Refined Petroleum Base Oils Mixture Group III Mixture 75-85%

Polyalphaolephins & Esters Mixture 5-20%

Viscosity Index Improver Mixture Mixture 5-15%

Pour Point Depressant Mixture, Antifoam Additive Mixture Confidential <

1 Proprietary Additive Mixture & Friction Modifiers Confidential 1-5%

 

This one is a Group III and contains enough PAO/Ester to hold the additives. 

 

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 Idemitsu

 

https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/dA/9cfd336ed5/sds-10w30.pdf

 

On page two of this products SDS I took note of the 60-70% PAO blended with 10-15% 'mixed' mineral oil base stocks. I also note they are solvent dewaxed paraffinic. That's a Group 2. Aniline suppression. 

 

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Red Line HP 

 

https://behrents.com/images/REDL MOTOR OIL.pdf

 

1-Dodecene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated 151006-63-2 25 - 60% (this is the PAO)

Phosphorodithioic acid, O,O-di-C1-14-alkyl esters, zinc salts 68649-42-3 0.9 - 1.3 9- (ZDDP)

Octadecenitrile 112-91-4 0.3 - 0.4

butanedioic acid ((4,5-dihydro-5-thioxo-1,3,4-thiadiazol-2-yl) thio-bis(2-ethylhexyl) ester 126104-53-8 0.09 - 0.1

Non-Hazardous Materials VARIOUS <75

 

Last entry is interesting https://www.hopenn.com/sds/CAT-AC-LUBRICANT-POE-100-OIL.pdf Interesting because POE is not a regulated hazardous material. My last contact with Red Line indicated a Polyol Ester content of roughly 35%. That fits with this SDS

 

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MPT 30K

 

I have not been able to unearth a SDS for this lubricant....so far....I will keep trying. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Z45]

At the end of the day, the type of base stock used to formulate the oil is inconsequential; the product’s performance is what matters.  While you need a great base oil to produce a great product, if you don't follow up with the proper additives and formulations, your great base oil produces an "average" finished product.

Edited June 11, 2021 by elcamino

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, elcamino said:

At the end of the day, the type of base stock used to formulate the oil is inconsequential; the product’s performance is what matters.  While you need a great base oil to produce a great product, if you don't follow up with the proper additives and formulations, your great base oil produces an "average" finished product.

 

 

Can you reconcile those two statements please?

[diyer2]

I think Amsoil is better oil than off the shelf(major brands, Valvoline, Pennzoil, Castrol etc.) oil. Even their lower grade OE oil is better than off the shelf oil.

Is this true?

 

[diyer2]

Hey Grumpy,

Please put your knowledge to use for me.

Looking at ingredients of these 2 oils, which is a better oil?

 

 

 

[Amcguy1970]

So does this mean all the amsoil self testing and paid for comparisons aren't legit and amsoil really is just a pyramid scheme for guys and a slight above average oil at best? Did I read that right? 

 

Tyler

[Grumpy Bear]

 

29 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Hey Grumpy,

Please put your knowledge to use for me.

Looking at ingredients of these 2 oils, which is a better oil?

 

 

 

 

The first SDS is cut off and missing section 3 so I don't have a clue as to what that is. 

The second is 10-25% PAO, some Group II and a whole lot of unknown. 

 

An SDS is not required to report 'unregulated' materials, nor give away 'trade secrets'. It's intended to be a health and safety document to inform those exposed to the product as to how to handle and protect themselves. Do not kid yourself, the writers are creative in wording and know every loophole trick in the book. I wrote a few. 

 

If base oil did not matter then we would all be using the cheapest thing possible which would be a Group 1.  If all that mattered were the additives then you could use anything as a carrier. Soybean oil. Heck, water for that matter. 

 

Common sense should tell a guy it ALL matters. It should also tell you that putting salt on a turd doesn't make it a Porterhouse. But even a Porterhouse can be improved with salt. 

 

Blending is about synergies.

Telling the truth about it is about character. 

It's hard to trust people of low character

Right?

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

[diyer2]

Thanks Grumpy.

 

[Grumpy Bear]

4 minutes ago, Amcguy1970 said:

So does this mean all the amsoil self testing and paid for comparisons aren't legit and amsoil really is just a pyramid scheme for guys and a slight above average oil at best? Did I read that right? 

 

Tyler

 

Asked and answered Tyler. AMSOIL is not a pyramid scheme. Remember?

 

 

Your like a lawyer that keeps asking the same question differently trying to get the answer you want instead of the answer that is true.

 

I do mean that in the nicest way too.

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Ponder this:

 

Ever fry some bulk pork sausage and it splatters all over the place even at low temperatures? Then another sausage is just a mild sizzle? Water causes that splatter. The meat has been injected with water to increase it's weight. Sausage is sold by the pound, not by it's content. As water is a natural component of fat it does not have to be listed in the ingredients.  Yet you can't know the difference in your kitchen until you frying it up. They already have your money son. How much of it they get depends on how long they can keep you confused and in the dark. Mushroom material. 

 

A liar is like a fuse that has popped.

It can never again carry the truth.

(current) 

 

Sadly as true as that is the liar is not the product and the product may still be the best, even if it is just the best of a myriad of obscure choices. Again I would like to thank Exxon/Mobil for the valiant fight to degrade the English language to the point that "synthetic" no longer has a specific/absolute meaning and the SAE for it's lack of a backbone in clarifying that.

 

Anyone remember Pennzoil with Penthane? Crazy stuff this Penthane. In use, the actual content was so low as to be no more effective than the product without it. Why not use enough? Cost! Why use it at all? Lawsuit! Can't lie now can we   

 

Idemitsu at 60-70% PAO at a $9 price point tells you PAO is not that expensive to use as a base. So others selling PAO whose content is fractional substituting lower performing mineral oils isn't about cost or performance. It's about greed.

 

  

 

 

 

 

[KARNUT]

I’m a simple man. I go by results I can see not read. Many years of using Amsoil and redline and even mobile one. On hundreds  of row equipment and many gas powered vehicles. Have convinced me synthetic and extended drains in most vehicles is the way to go. Vehicles that can’t handle that don’t darken my driveway not the other way around. The two undisputed vehicle and most popular. Honda and Toyota go extended. I own one of each. The Camry is passing 100K. The CRV is a new addition. Both manufacturers don’t need to go extended to sell vehicles. People buy them for longevity. They still recommend visiting their dealerships every 5K miles for maintenance just not oil changes. So there’s something to synthetics and extended oil changes. Engines are more efficient that is part of the deal. I look at the vehicle manufacturers not the oil for longevity. People are being jerk around by the manufacturers is a true statement. That rest on the vehicle manufacturers, not oil.

[Grumpy Bear]

MPT® Thirty-K High Performance Full Synthetic Motor Oils

 

The Thirty-K Line of full synthetic high performance motors oils are comprised of 100% true synthetic ester and polyalpaolefin (PAO) base stocks with no highly refined petroleum (Group I, II or III) or viscosity modifiers.

From the MSDS:

SECTION 3: Composition/information on ingredients INGREDIENT: CAS NO. % WT ACGIH-TLV-TWA

Trade Secret Additives Non-Hazardous 12-20%

Polyalphaolefin 68649-12-7 20-55%

Polyester Polyol Proprietary 21-55%

Ditridecyl Adipate, Diester 16958-92-2 10-24%

Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate 68649-42-3 1.2-1.5%

 

5W30 Specs

MPT^® Thirty-K Full Synthetic

High Performance Motor Oil – 5W30

• Our most popular oil for late model passenger cars and light trucks (VW/Audi, BMW, GM, and Ford)
• Provides thicker oil film than comparable viscosity petroleum and many synthetics
• API SN/SM/SL/SJ/SH/SG/CF and ACEA A3/B3/B4, GM dexos1® (GM-LL-A-025, GM6094M and GM4718M). Also Ford WSS-M2C946-A, and VW/Audi 500.00, 501.01 and 502.00.

 

Typical Properties

Viscosity @100 ° C, (ASTM D445)     10.9

Viscosity @ 40 ° C, (ASTM D445)      64.1

Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270)         162

CCS Viscosity cP @ (°C) (ASTM D5293)     3999 (-30)

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D97)             -45 (-49)

Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D92)              238 (460)

Noack Volatility (ASTM D5800)                        5.4

High Temperature/High Shear (HTHS) (ASTM D5293)      3.9

Total Base Number (TBN)                                       12.5

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

MPTThirtyKSDS5W30.pdf

[Black02Silverado]

On 6/21/2021 at 12:19 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

MPT® Thirty-K High Performance Full Synthetic Motor Oils

 

The Thirty-K Line of full synthetic high performance motors oils are comprised of 100% true synthetic ester and polyalpaolefin (PAO) base stocks with no highly refined petroleum (Group I, II or III) or viscosity modifiers.

From the MSDS:

SECTION 3: Composition/information on ingredients INGREDIENT: CAS NO. % WT ACGIH-TLV-TWA

Trade Secret Additives Non-Hazardous 12-20%

Polyalphaolefin 68649-12-7 20-55%

Polyester Polyol Proprietary 21-55%

Ditridecyl Adipate, Diester 16958-92-2 10-24%

Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate 68649-42-3 1.2-1.5%

 

5W30 Specs

MPT^® Thirty-K Full Synthetic

High Performance Motor Oil – 5W30

• Our most popular oil for late model passenger cars and light trucks (VW/Audi, BMW, GM, and Ford)
• Provides thicker oil film than comparable viscosity petroleum and many synthetics
• API SN/SM/SL/SJ/SH/SG/CF and ACEA A3/B3/B4, GM dexos1® (GM-LL-A-025, GM6094M and GM4718M). Also Ford WSS-M2C946-A, and VW/Audi 500.00, 501.01 and 502.00.

 

Typical Properties

Viscosity @100 ° C, (ASTM D445)     10.9

Viscosity @ 40 ° C, (ASTM D445)      64.1

Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270)         162

CCS Viscosity cP @ (°C) (ASTM D5293)     3999 (-30)

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D97)             -45 (-49)

Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D92)              238 (460)

Noack Volatility (ASTM D5800)                        5.4

High Temperature/High Shear (HTHS) (ASTM D5293)      3.9

Total Base Number (TBN)                                       12.5

 

 

Does this cover the dexos 1 gen 2?

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, Black02Silverado said:

Does this cover the dexos 1 gen 2?

 

Cover? Trick question, right? It's a fair question. If you mean is it licensed? No. If you mean does it meet or exceed the DEXOS1Ge2 certification requirements. Like Red Line HP, no. Oh it meets or exceeds any physical spec BUT contains too much ZZDP to be called an SN or SN+ or SP. But if the question is exactly as asked. Covered. Yes...it covers it like a blanket. 

 

You've fought the licensing argument long enough to know what's what. Right? 

 

To be clear, due to the higher ZZDP levels of some of these oils I talk about they are NOT recommended for motors that use allot of oil. But tight motors? I had a 1998 and 2003 Hondas the lived on Red Line HP each for a quarter million each by sale time with zero Cat or O2 issues. 

 

https://mptindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Motor_Oil_Product_Sheet_final.pdf

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Grumpy Bear