OCI, not when but why?

[Grumpy Bear]

Made the Big Time. BITOG

 

 

Cute fight going on over how recent this oil is. Actually, first batch from the Tennessee plant. Haters gotta hate. 

 

Newest result from this batch of Red Line Euro Series 5W40: 

 

 

Poster on BITOG reached out to Red Line and got this response: 

 

[Quote] "Our SP/SN+ oils such as our 0W-20, 0W-30 and our Euro series 5W-30 and 5W-40. The products will have slightly different formulation such a reduced anti-wear package(zinc, phosphorus and molly and will have lower detergents and will meet ACEA C2(mid sap) ratings.

Even though these oils have a somewhat reduced formulation compared to other “euro ”products, Our products will still offer high quality PAO and Ester base stocks along with an enhanced protection package that will make them superior to other European oils.

When comparing the new lower ash European oils to our regular High-performance oils where SAPS and café are not as critical, we will have an enhanced level of Zinc, Molly ,and Phosphorus and higher detergency but still, offering the same high quality PAO/Ester Base stocks that would also make them superior to the lower ash European oils.

All Red Line products are full synthetic Group IV/Group V Ester base stocks with enhanced levels of Zinc. Phosphorus and Molly for better protection and performance.

Hope this helps." [Close quote]

 

Tis why I spike the ZDDP  

 

Can you improve on zero? HTHS Viscosity Matters! Data backs up the claim. 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Not sub 1 ppm/k miles...yet. 

 

Iron, aluminum, total wear metals; all three are following the pattern of HTHS viscosity roll in reducing wear. 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Whining or FACT? 

 

On what basis is a 7.5K, 10K 12K OEM OCI based on? In what world can an OCI be the same regardless of environment or operation? How can one standardize an OCI when so much variation exist in oil chemistries? 

 

Let's work that backward. Variation is limited by licensing. It's how the military did it. You fence the vendors in on base oil types and additive chemistries to the point that the blenders label means nothing. Then you fence in the user with warranty threats. The stepping back a level you divide environment and operation into two schedules. Normal, which does not exist but satisfies regulation and severe which is discouraged at every turn in marketing, fine print and even elimination so that most will use the inappropriate schedule. And finally testing. Testing that gets the OEM 'just' past it's legal obligations at the 'normal' scheduling.

 

Oh, I'm complaining but it is not whining as it is not childish nor inappropriate to call out a system bent on destruction for profit. What it is, is fact. 

 

API standards are the bottom of the 'regulated' barrel and OEM standards are one quarter rung higher on that ladder of dozens of rungs. 

 

People are so used to having someone think for them that is pains them to even 'consider' a thought that is not in the mold. This has led to a bar set so low that over decades of practical experience even those inclined to be a bit more diligent and thoughtful are lulled into accepting crap products and crap services and happy with whatever that precipitates. 

 

So much so that reason leaves the barn. 200K is no big deal spouts the guy without one in his history. Nothing matters and you can do as you please says the AMSOIL user who is fearful of anything with more than 150K on the clock of his gas motors. I've been doing this way for fifty years and never had an issue says the guy trading every three years dumping them before the warranty expires. 

 

Where did people get the idea that the bottom of the barrel is as good as it gets. And when did liars that spend all their time in court defending crap builds become the touchstones of excellence? 

Edited July 4, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

Maybe it’s a good idea to research your proposed purchase before buying. This is a carry over problem. It’s not the oil. It’s a bad design. It would be nice if some people would quit trying to disparage people who have figured it out. By holding on to a failure making yourself look foolish. All the while saying look they’re afraid to run a disaster to 300K miles. Hey look at me it only costs me double to get here. Take a breath. Than you for showing us not to do. Some people don’t want to pump oil into a disaster. I reread the terrain post. About 5 people at the 150K mark said put an engine in it. Just think where you’d be if you bought the G-4 then. What you saved would have paid for the G4. That’s where I’d be. It wouldn’t have been a G4. But about the same money. So who’s the fool? You can’t say I’m wrong in this assessment. You admitted as much yourself.

[customboss]

On 4/19/2025 at 8:34 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

omewhere along the way we got this stilly notion that the OEM's and the API and the Regulators have our EQUIPMENTS best interest in mind and that they never lie. IF one believed that then they put their head down and swallowed the extension of thought that every change was BETTER for the equipment.

Who is this WE Kimosabe ? You just enjoy reading your own blathering. 

[customboss]

15 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Maybe it’s a good idea to research your proposed purchase before buying. This is a carry over problem. It’s not the oil. It’s a bad design. It would be nice if some people would quit trying to disparage people who have figured it out. By holding on to a failure making yourself look foolish. All the while saying look they’re afraid to run a disaster to 300K miles. Hey look at me it only costs me double to get here. Take a breath. Than you for showing us not to do. Some people don’t want to pump oil into a disaster. I reread the terrain post. About 5 people at the 150K mark said put an engine in it. Just think where you’d be if you bought the G-4 then. What you saved would have paid for the G4. That’s where I’d be. It wouldn’t have been a G4. But about the same money. So who’s the fool? You can’t say I’m wrong in this assessment. You admitted as much yourself.

He had a window of opportunity to correct this POS. He came to me late in game and relied on his mechanic to correct the issues but alas Mr FIXIT failed. Then he blames me for not correcting his poor following of symptom corrections. The 2.4 can last if one makes sure the emissions venting system functions all the time and ANY HIGH FUELS DILUTION OF THE ENGINE OIL is corrected ASAP.

Had NOTHING to do with engine oil.  

[KARNUT]

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Who is this WE Kimosabe ? You just enjoy reading your own blathering. 

By now you would think he would have noticed. People only answer him negatively when he disparages them. I pointed out his condescending nature. He called me a liar. He just did it again. Some people are afraid to go 200K miles. I have 3 that family members drive over 200K. Some real close. They’re my cars. I spread the wealth. I use a mental chart. I reach a goal I sometimes pass them on. It feels good and people live better. My church upbringing.

Edited July 4, 2025 by KARNUT

[customboss]

He’s angry man. He must justify his feelings of insecurity with charts and posts. I like the guy. Even bought him lunch, went outta my way to go back to Colorado to visit him when I was in bone crushing pain. 
He’s smart. 
Marty no one here hates you. It’s ok. We are like brothers who hold you accountable. 
 

Please find peace. 

 

[customboss]

 

[KARNUT]

I hereby promises I will no longer reply anything Grumpy. I cannot explain myself any better. I really don’t feel the need to. I can only pass on experiences. I have many. Doesn’t mean it’s the only way. I don’t try to push people my way. It’s your life, live it. I’ve had many vehicles, it’s still a hobby. My business has given me access to many kinds of trucks and equipment. And experience with all kinds of oils. Not in a test tube or office. In the field with the real thing. Not an outlier or one off. An average of what I’ve witnessed in real time. I’ll admit 2016 my experience stopped. I do ask questions at the dealers I use and mechanics I know. I still visit my old equipment dealership. I see what the customers drive. And what my other brother uses in his pipeline business. Another one of my old business. So wasting my time with an individual who so easily upset when challenged. Those days are over. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Now you're cooking! 

 

There are a few cooking shows I like to watch because they go into the chemistry, physics and mechanics of cooking. Once you know how, why and when certain things happen you can become a participant in an entirely new way. One that shapes the outcome instead of accepting one. 

 

It's also the reason I like to delve into those same aspects of motor oil and sometimes even fuels. Those things I mentioned, the LAWS of chemistry, physics and mechanics do not and will not change. What will change is your access and/or availability to the 'known, to the available. 

 

Having such a knowledge allows you to 'work with what you have' instead of 'what I prefer' to get to a nearly equal result. 

 

Super easy examples are influencing oxidation / viscosity and/or fuel map with water temperature or air temperature or oil temperature or head temperature, depending on the OEM strategies. Exacting best possible outcomes with operational modification. Even making 'best choice' within a limited selection or when you can't, make something that does from what is around you. MacGyver it. None of which is possible if you stay ignorant. 

 

Go back just a decade or two and "Professionals" were telling us not to mix this with that down to, "Don't top Mobil with Valvoline except in a dire emergency; then change oil at your earlies possible opportunity".  And today? 

 

Anything goes with anything. For about 50 years knowledge got stuck in the myth mill and promoted like it was the word of God. It really depended on what was for sale and not based in truth. 

 

Now they tell us that you can lubricate with sacrificial chemicals for at times what they call "Life Time Fills".  Yep, water viscosity fluid with tick chemical assistance. If you say so...

 

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1906-whats-inside-that-bottle-of-oil-really-does-make-a-difference

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2025 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Why does transmission fluid last so much longer than motor oil? 

 

You're going to feel silly. Because ATF doesn't have to deal with combustion contamination. Simpler said, blow-by. 

 

While you're nodding yes to that; did it dawn on you that blow-by is a state that differs in every motor and in the same motor over time? A motor with 3% new can end up at 30% at life's end. A well built motor can reach near zero but a poorly broken in new motor can be 15-18% out of the box. This it is different at part throttle than WOT? 

 

Some motors never see 'Winter', think Miami and Brownsville not Chi-town and the Big Apple. Others silly heat, think Phoenix and El Paso. Fuel dilution, GDI and little to none, MPFI. A guy that keeps a sharp tune and one who thinks plugs last forever. Grandma and the 2 mile trip to church and the sales guy for whom 500 miles a day is a given. The home wrench who is fanatical about maintenance and Aunt Tilly who does the dealership when an MIL lamp is lit. The kid who drives everywhere like he's responding to a five alarm fire and the retired guy that is always 5 under the limit. 

 

A standard OCI is a myth and one perpetuated by OEM's and Regulators to an end and not by the reality of operations.

 

Book says, "Blah blah blah" or "The engineers know best". Right! What people don't know is amazing. No, what people believe is amazing. 

 

You have "experts" telling you there is such a thing and you trust that advice regardless of any and all of the above?  A child could tell you that's  

 

Work the facts and the data, not the hype and the regulation. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Current Experiment

 

 

In this experiment, new motor, and after a few quick changes I settled in at 3,750 miles as an OCI. A changes with the same oil, same driver, same area of operation on the same fuel. The first sample ended in a color of  5.5 and has been backing up every change with the latest, yet to be processed, at a 2.5.

 

 

Top TBN value is the VOA for the lot in use. Each subsequent number the proceeding UOA sample. Following the color the TBN depletion abated for three consecutive samplings. Wear metals, not shown, fell in a steady manor. (Show elsewhere is other threads.) 

 

OCI isn't steady but it is predictable. Short when new, longer as long as normal operations exist and short again when she's on the way out of service. If I had let this motor go to it's book 7.5K to 10K OCI's, that trip to the grave would have come sooner than is now likely. 

 

Sample currently in the lab and one more to get me on increments of 5K and I'm there. Then I'll watch that to set a trend line and adjust as data indicated. 

[customboss]

10 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Because ATF doesn't have to deal with combustion contamination

Gear Lubes either! OH SNAP. 

[diyer2]

Copied from the Hyundai forum I belong to. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Just change the oil, following the severe schedule  doesn't hurt.

 

I always wonder how many of these engines have been driven in stop and go traffic, high temperatures, high speeds and hard acceleration, all while using Bob's Bulk oil at 10K OCI. I have owned 12 different model Hyundai since 2002 and run over 140K miles in a 2006 Elantra before it got totaled. Hyundai filters in all of them, Castrol GTX until Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic came out, and oil changes intervals that never went over 5K miles or six months. Not a one of them had an engine problem. Even the 2015 Sonata with the "infamous" 2.4L at 70K miles used no oil, ran like a top, and its only repair was to change the valve cover gasket. When that was done, tech asked what oil I used and how often because the valve train and cams looked like new.

People who have been on these forums for a while know my motto: "Oil is cheap. Engines are not." Don't abuse the engine by servicing it on the Normal schedule when you flog it in traffic every day.