why is maintenance schedule different from each dealer?

[Grumpy Bear]

22 hours ago, dieselfan1 said:

I'd change oil more often than recommended. Every 3500 miles for me.

My thinking is clean oil = less lifter failure chance.

Grumpy?

 

@dieselfan1 Still learning myself Jim. But in general, yes. Run this by the 'rational meter'. The test used by the API and by extension the OEMs, even DEXOS, allow for a certain amount of deposit formation. GM even has photos the tech's go by to determine what is 'acceptable' and what is not. So, the question becomes, when will it start to leave deposits? And it's tricky because there are two possible answers to this question. 1.) When the add pack is depleted. 2.) When the operating conditions or other non-related to oil, mechanical failure prematurely damages the oil. Think Dizzy and the fuel pump failure that caused the ring sticking/varnishing. Nearly a pint of gasoline was being dumped into the system before 2,000 miles were on that oil and with little visual or olfactory clues. Dad's old 1,000-mile OCI would have prevented damage but I'm not saying that should be a fella's routine target. I did 1,500 or so until I had it figure out. 

 

I'm saying it is situational. Even the OEM knows this as they provide a 'normal' service interval and a 'severe' service interval. NO ONE running a gas ICE has a normal situation. 

 

I've run some Honda's I4's past 200K on 7.5K OCI's that looked unused internally on teardown using polar oils and keeping a tight rein on the mechanicals. Early on I saw internals of motors with 60K miles on them needing a scoop, trowel and a five-gallon bucket to remove the sludge from the lifter valleys, rocker area and pan. Those were conventional oil motors on 3K OCI's. Buss motors for the school district. Worse than taxi service. 

 

Currently the trends in OEM build quality have me limiting my OCI's to 5K with boutique oils and 2,000/3,000 on shelf 'Full Synthetics. Mostly the use of low-tension rings and exceedingly small drain back areas in the oil control ring land. DOD and AFM ditto. Even VVT/VVL seem sensitive in a way old technologies were not. OEM's, EPA, Lubrication blenders are all trying the patients of physics.

 

Add this insane squeeze on oil to deliver lower friction AND longer OCI's and you end up in a place where OCI is no longer the limiting factor. You can have a perfectly clean motor, (short OCI), with totally wiped-out bores, (vis too low, shear related vis loss), in a very short period of time. And now? Valve sping failures and lifter axle failures which have nothing to do with wtih the oil or the OCI. It's a mad house.

 

Don't look know but that bottle of your fathers SAE30 now has a SAE 40 label on it. What we can't engineer down we move the goal post on. Better base oils allow for less antioxidants but that also precipitates lower base values and shorter periods to minimum TBN. Oh, wait we will move that goal post to. Not happy to move the goal post only half the distance which would net a better product. No...move it more than reason dictates. 

 

There are a few oils still not drinking that Kool-Aid and all the others are shouting Satan. I mumble 'thank you'. 

 

 

 

[KARNUT]

My Odyssey’s oil looks dirty at 4K miles. I’m sure my daughter changed by the light, probably between 8-10k miles. Normally I wouldn’t pay attention but with cylinder deactivation my ears perked up. It’s getting changed next week. On the trip it was in eco mode most of the time. It’s has to make a difference at that rate. So therapeutic oil changes are on the list.

[customboss]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

AMSOIL and Red Line are PAO based. I get their use in conventional'\, but are they used in these PAO based products? It's a very low straight weight with an already exceptional pour point.  

 

PIB, a dispersant, I get.  

You made a statement they aren't used. As of 2013 they were.  Source Infineum and my formulating at the time.  Most likely from that test data ( have never seen that test name before)  you posted they are really shear stable.  PIBSA is a dispersant that can do multi tasks too.  If I had to guess YES they are still used in PAO based fluids. 

[customboss]

43 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

@dieselfan1 Still learning myself Jim. But in general, yes. Run this by the 'rational meter'. The test used by the API and by extension the OEMs, even DEXOS, allow for a certain amount of deposit formation. GM even has photos the tech's go by to determine what is 'acceptable' and what is not. So, the question becomes, when will it start to leave deposits? And it's tricky because there are two possible answers to this question. 1.) When the add pack is depleted. 2.) When the operating conditions or other non-related to oil, mechanical failure prematurely damages the oil. Think Dizzy and the fuel pump failure that caused the ring sticking/varnishing. Nearly a pint of gasoline was being dumped into the system before 2,000 miles were on that oil and with little visual or olfactory clues. Dad's old 1,000-mile OCI would have prevented damage but I'm not saying that should be a fella's routine target. I did 1,500 or so until I had it figure out. 

 

I'm saying it is situational. Even the OEM knows this as they provide a 'normal' service interval and a 'severe' service interval. NO ONE running a gas ICE has a normal situation. 

 

I've run some Honda's I4's past 200K on 7.5K OCI's that looked unused internally on teardown using polar oils and keeping a tight rein on the mechanicals. Early on I saw internals of motors with 60K miles on them needing a scoop, trowel and a five-gallon bucket to remove the sludge from the lifter valleys, rocker area and pan. Those were conventional oil motors on 3K OCI's. Buss motors for the school district. Worse than taxi service. 

 

Currently the trends in OEM build quality have me limiting my OCI's to 5K with boutique oils and 2,000/3,000 on shelf 'Full Synthetics. Mostly the use of low-tension rings and exceedingly small drain back areas in the oil control ring land. DOD and AFM ditto. Even VVT/VVL seem sensitive in a way old technologies were not. OEM's, EPA, Lubrication blenders are all trying the patients of physics.

 

Add this insane squeeze on oil to deliver lower friction AND longer OCI's and you end up in a place where OCI is no longer the limiting factor. You can have a perfectly clean motor, (short OCI), with totally wiped-out bores, (vis too low, shear related vis loss), in a very short period of time. And now? Valve sping failures and lifter axle failures which have nothing to do with wtih the oil or the OCI. It's a mad house.

 

Don't look know but that bottle of your fathers SAE30 now has a SAE 40 label on it. What we can't engineer down we move the goal post on. Better base oils allow for less antioxidants but that also precipitates lower base values and shorter periods to minimum TBN. Oh, wait we will move that goal post to. Not happy to move the goal post only half the distance which would net a better product. No...move it more than reason dictates. 

 

There are a few oils still not drinking that Kool-Aid and all the others are shouting Satan. I mumble 'thank you'. 

 

 

 

@dieselfan1 if I may.......thats a great question and @Black02Silverado has run various oils to try to eliminate the threat.

 

He settled on Amsoil 0w20 Signature Series and as he approaches 90,000 miles in his suburban no problems yet. The last oil analysis from his ISO CERTIFIED OIL ANALYSIS service showed a possible directional change that he can speak to. 

 

From my experience in testing for years, NO ENGINE OIL will stop a metallurgy failure.  It might delay it like we do with our wonderful GM Automatic transmissions. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[repairman54]

I have been using the severe schedule in all my vehicles for years for trans, transfer and diffs. 

Engine oil via the OCI in the ones that had it. Only full synth. oils also. 

220k miles on a '99 Yukon with towing duty on the OEM drivetrain, sold it running fine, rust was the sell reason. 210k on a '09 FWD Malibu same thing, OEM drivetrain. Just traded in my '11 Tahoe at 150k for the Silverado as rust was getting to all the fluid lines but drivetrain was fine, towing duty also. I'm no slouch on the right pedal either even though I'm old. 

For me cost of fluid maintenance vs major component replacement is a no brainer.

[Black02Silverado]

@dieselfan1 driving style and geographic location can play a role in how a UOA can turn out. Seems our short city style driving keeps our oil changes low. 
 

At one point I thought I had it figured out, that is until the next UOA say something different. 
 

as customboss stated, no oil can stop metallurgy failure. This in my mind is the issue with all these lifter failures. GM going with the lowest bidder all to save money. 

[KARNUT]

I had an enlightened experience today regarding the Genesis oil change. It’s been a dealer only experience with this car driven by the warranty period. Today like usual I showed up for its oil change. They asked if I had an appointment. The first time in about 30 years of using this GMC-Hyundai dealership. I’ve been getting disillusion with this dealership since they wouldn’t inspect my avalanche with foggy headlights. I went down the road to a valvoline quick change-inspection service. An independent owned shop. Two years in a row I’ve been getting hassle free quick inspections. Down there I go, screw the dealership. Appointment my a$$. Impressed I am. They pulled the air filter out and showed me. The used TQ wrench’s on all tightening. Being the filter was on top I could see the procedure while in the car. The manager overseeing the whole procedure while shouting out every completion. And they show the clean full oil on the dipstick. I was impressed. Not just for inspection anymore. In and out in a half of an hour. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by KARNUT

[Grumpy Bear]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:15 AM, customboss said:

If I had to guess YES they are still used in PAO based fluids. 

 

Red Line D6 is the focus of this reply. 

 

Conformation today. Very small amount of VII is present in the prepackaged additive 'package'. The entire add pack is small percentage wise. No PPD which does not surprise me. They are not effective in PAO's. 

 

Polyalphaolefins FAQ | Chevron Phillips Chemical (cpchem.com)

 

 

I add Pour Point Depressants (PPD) to my Group III mineral oils and see an improvement in pour points. Why don’t PAOs respond to PPDs?

Because PAOs have a diverse, highly branched isoparaffin structure, they provide excellent low-temperature viscometrics and very low pour points (ppt) without adding PPDs. PPDs act only on linear or waxy compounds, and these characteristics are absent from PAOs. With Synfluid^® PAO 4 cSt having a ‑73°C ppt and ‑40°C viscosity of 2,380 cSt, a PPD is not necessary.

The Scanning Brookfield chart on this page demonstrates the difference in viscometrics between a Synfluid^® PAO and a pour point depressed mineral oil. A Group III mineral oil with a 0.1 percent PPD achieves an improved pour point, but to the detriment of the low-temperature viscometrics. You would expect the viscosity to improve with a lower pour point, but the opposite is true. As a result, the jump in the viscosity adversely effects the ability to pump at low temperatures. Some specifications have a low-temperature MRV requirement. You see, “the jump hurts the pump.”

Adding a PPD will reduce the pour point of a mineral oil, but it still will not achieve the performance of a PAO.

[customboss]

Maybe you’ll define small now?

[Grumpy Bear]

31 minutes ago, customboss said:

Maybe you’ll define small now?

 

How is that helpful? Besides, you already covered that. Range for entire ATF line for all brands 3-10% you said in a previous post. I'd guess closer to 3% than 10%. Only so much they will tell me, or you for that matter.  

 

You've never heard of a shear stability test? ASTM6278? 

[customboss]

My point you said you knew. You don’t. 
Not that version called that name. 
Doing a deep Grumpy dive on PPD is a distraction. 
Just keeping it real. 

[Grumpy Bear]

why is maintenance schedule different from each dealer?

 

After reading the first post and this title I can't say I actually understand what you're fishing for. My best guess is it is perhaps a query into why people disagree. Or perhaps, why the disagree on this topic? Maybe, why do they not agree with you. 

 

Either way or neither way it's a question I have yet to learn to stay a mile away from. I continue to fail in decerning the difference between a question FOR clarification and a question OF conformation. Upon reflection you seem to be seeking the later. That that, I am empty......

 

You have a nice day. 

[Grumpy Bear]

46 minutes ago, customboss said:

My point you said you knew. You don’t. 
Not that version called that name. 
Doing a deep Grumpy dive on PPD is a distraction. 
Just keeping it real. 

 

What it is SIR is education. You find education distracting? Who do you believe benefits from remaining ignorant. Besides your benefit naturally. 

 

Seems there are things you don't know either. Embarrassing.... (Except if I'm ignorant, to your benifit, and don't notice )

 

Yes! Let's keep it real. 

 

Your point is I don't know but your best guess was and still is a guess. You don't know either. If you knew it would be a number and not a range. You based the comment on what you admitted was decade old information (2013). And you berate me for my best answers based on the fact I've been retired for quite some time?  

 

I asked the blender and got an answer. As incomplete and as dissatisfactory as that was for you.... I learned something NEW and passed that along. To me that was not a waste. Nor to anyone else to learned from that "Grumpy Deep Dive". 

 

Keep looking for my weaknesses. I'll keep erasing it. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[customboss]

No one cares watching us continue on this.  

[customboss]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:06 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

This is not unique to gear oil and while transmission fluid does not contain polymetric VI improvers it degrades in oh so many other ways.

You wrote that on that date at that time right? I was answering that claim.