Some Assembly is Required

Atlas · July 13

The Germans basically didn't make the list. There aren't a lot of shade-tree mechanics who work on them in general. At some point the economic equation of keeping a car alive favors junking it. Anecdote/experience tells me this is the case versus actual bad engines/engineering. Not that there isn't any, but there are definitely notable excellent examples. The 2.0 diesels will go forever and ever if one keeps the car around it running. The 2.0 gas cars eventually wear out their turbos but the block below it is usually still solid as a rock. BMW inline 6's same thing. Mercedes diesels of yesteryear, not uncommon to see 250k out of those engines, easy.

Link to the synopsis of the study:

https://www.iseecars.com/longest-lasting-cars-study

Atlas · July 13

1 hour ago, OnTheReel said:

Break-in reality check? Very strange to such a cautious (and threatening) break-in procedure on a 2026 vehicle but yet Ram deemed this necessary on their DC650 sport truck.
This is a stock 5.7 Hemi with a blower bolted onto it. Internally nothing different from the engine in millions of other trucks, so why the “excessive” break-in? And why then wouldn’t a “normal” truck also benefit from following it? Rhetorical questions of course…

I think the answer is it's a stock 5.7 Hemi with a 3.0L blower bolted onto it

Practically, because a blower introduces a lot of high pressure, severe thermal stress, and extreme mechanical loads on an engine. Things still need a little time to seat and get used to moving under load.

Sarcastically, because it's a Stellantis/ 5.7 Hemi and those things need all the help they can get!!

KARNUT · July 13

46 minutes ago, Atlas said:

0w20 is recommended in the Sequoia. 0w16 in the Highlander Hybrid.

I think you make a compelling case for both the quality and frequency of maintenance but I wouldn't go so far as to plot a linear relationship between longevity and oil weight

The list is interesting and leaves me with some questions. The Silverado 1500 is 12.9% likely while the GMC Sierra 1500 is only 10.8% likely. Arguably, they're the same truck, so other factors must be influencing the outcome.

The Honda Odyssey ranks #12 at 13% likely. Great. Rest assured we'll never stop hearing about the dang thing LOL.

There's a bit of a spread between the 4Runner (32.9%) and Tacoma (25.3%). Both overlap on the same 4.0 for many years although the Tacoma used a 3.5 for the last 10-12ish. I wonder if that's related to use-case or if it's suggesting the 3.5 isn't quite as up to the task, or maybe something else fails mechanically.

Ram at 3.5% overall likely, but the Ram 3500 holds the top spot on the Heavy Duty Models at 39.7%. One might say the Cummins is a ringer and provides an unfair advantage. I don't think it's fair/accurate to pit the GM Fullsize 1500's in a list with HD's which are basically medium-duty wearing a 3500 badge.

The Tahoe and Suburban hold spots #15 and #8, respectively, on the longest lasting SUV's list. What's the difference? One's got a shorter butt, unless they're also counting the 2500/3500 Suburbans in those numbers.

The GMC Canyon gets a 1.4% increase over its twin brother Colorado. Why, because it's prettier?

SO many questions...

You may like to pick on Odyssey owners and that’s fine. I’ve owned more Chevys than most people as well as Fords. And will own more. If a vehicle surprises me I like to make it known. We don’t all survive with one vehicle. And surprise, surprise not all are GMS. I don’t usually bring my business vehicles in the conversation because they’re work vehicles. If Chevy had a mini van I’d probably own one. Same with a 4 door rear drive car. They don’t so I’m forced to look elsewhere.

Atlas · July 13

1 minute ago, KARNUT said:

You may like to pick on Odyssey owners and that’s fine. I’ve owned more Chevys than most people as well as Fords. And will own more. If a vehicle surprises me I like to make it known. We don’t all survive with one vehicle. And surprise, surprise not all are GMS. I don’t usually bring my business vehicles in the conversation because they’re work vehicles. If Chevy had a mini van I’d probably own one. Same with a 4 door rear drive car. They don’t so I’m forced to look elsewhere.

On a more serious note, the Traverse is basically a minivan with large car-like rear doors. Versatile, comfortable, and FWD/AWD, unibody design makes them nice drivers and pretty efficient considering their size. But, being honest the last small-ish van of GM's that I liked was the Astro.

KARNUT · July 13

5 minutes ago, Atlas said:

On a more serious note, the Traverse is basically a minivan with large car-like rear doors. Versatile, comfortable, and FWD/AWD, unibody design makes them nice drivers and pretty efficient considering their size. But, being honest the last small-ish van of GM's that I liked was the Astro.

Most people unless they spend time in a mini van don’t appreciate them. If I didn’t trade a CRV that was free when my mother in law who quit driving with my daughter. I would have never would have ever, ever given it a shot. One will always be my trip vehicle.

Grumpy Bear · July 13

4 hours ago, Atlas said:

I think you make a compelling case for both the quality and frequency of maintenance but I wouldn't go so far as to plot a linear relationship between longevity and oil weight

Linear? No, you are correct. Not linear but it is measurable.

Here is my latest project. The yellow line is the entire Blackstone Historical Universe for this motor platform on the OEM recommended 0W20 oil. Results fall well below the Industry standard (after break-in) of no more than 5 ppm total wear metals. Thus one could reasonably expect this motor to last quite some time on this weight and evidently most do.

One the web site for this platform enthusiast holding on to that warranty report making 200-300K miles but with a good deal of engine issues, heavy oil consumption (by as early as 80K), multiple timing chains and noisy valve gear. So yes, 0W20 will get you there and then to the bone yard. Longest one lasted 400K miles and was on display at White Bear Mitsubishi.

The Orange line is a fellow enthusiast, one I am familiar with, experiment into the heavier grade lubricant of 5W30. He's a Mobil 1 fan changing oil at 5K miles. He's passed 200K with the same timing chain, fairly quite valve train and light use of oil. Something like a cup between OCI's. His compression test are within 2 psi of new. Note lower total wear metals v the 0W20. There is a second fellow on that site with a bit less documentation that just did 300K on 5W30 in this platform that just published his compression tests at 5-8 psi under new. I think there is good argument there that at minimum bore and piston skirt wear is nicely abated by this heavier choice. He still 50 psi above the factory minimum and very in balance hole to hole.

Light green in Raven, my unit. 5W40. Jury is out on how long it will last as it just passed 50K in under two years. However wear metals are once again vastly reduced. It uses no oil yet and the mechanical valve train is amazingly quite and it runs exceptionally cool.

I would be hard pressed to believe that such a drastic reduction in measured metals does not equate long term to a longer lasting motor.

I only offered the examples I have DATA for and people I actually know and trust. So once again, I'm not telling anyone what I THINK happens. I providing the RESULTS and the context. My batting average would have most testing me for performance enhancing chemicals...wait!...I am!

Now I've ran every Honda with 5W20 but again a high polarity oil with an exceptional HTHS value. High enough to exceed the SAE 30 minimum.

I just ran across an 5W30 with a HTHS value of a SAE 40. And there in Atlas lies the key. It isn't the SAE grade but the actual HTHS values and shear stability index results.

Looking for other outliers we could include those oils so light as to not support Stribeck but work due to enhanced AW chemistries. If you lean on these then the OCI needs to be short enough to not deplete their effectiveness.

The Toyota Crown calls for a 0W8 but as it is not yet sold here in any volume Toyota has cleared weights as high as 0W20 for warranty enforcement. A testament to the absurdity of 'heavy oils damage motors'. :bs:

Yes there are a few weird Spray Bore motors that don't like heavier oils due more to the hone finish. Special cases so no blanket statement will stand.

Edited July 13 by Grumpy Bear

Grumpy Bear · July 25

This is going to take allot of Assembly

OnTheReel · July 25

On 7/13/2026 at 1:07 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

Linear? No, you are correct. Not linear but it is measurable.

Here is my latest project. The yellow line is the entire Blackstone Historical Universe for this motor platform on the OEM recommended 0W20 oil. Results fall well below the Industry standard (after break-in) of no more than 5 ppm total wear metals. Thus one could reasonably expect this motor to last quite some time on this weight and evidently most do.

One the web site for this platform enthusiast holding on to that warranty report making 200-300K miles but with a good deal of engine issues, heavy oil consumption (by as early as 80K), multiple timing chains and noisy valve gear. So yes, 0W20 will get you there and then to the bone yard. Longest one lasted 400K miles and was on display at White Bear Mitsubishi.

The Orange line is a fellow enthusiast, one I am familiar with, experiment into the heavier grade lubricant of 5W30. He's a Mobil 1 fan changing oil at 5K miles. He's passed 200K with the same timing chain, fairly quite valve train and light use of oil. Something like a cup between OCI's. His compression test are within 2 psi of new. Note lower total wear metals v the 0W20. There is a second fellow on that site with a bit less documentation that just did 300K on 5W30 in this platform that just published his compression tests at 5-8 psi under new. I think there is good argument there that at minimum bore and piston skirt wear is nicely abated by this heavier choice. He still 50 psi above the factory minimum and very in balance hole to hole.

Light green in Raven, my unit. 5W40. Jury is out on how long it will last as it just passed 50K in under two years. However wear metals are once again vastly reduced. It uses no oil yet and the mechanical valve train is amazingly quite and it runs exceptionally cool.

I would be hard pressed to believe that such a drastic reduction in measured metals does not equate long term to a longer lasting motor.

I only offered the examples I have DATA for and people I actually know and trust. So once again, I'm not telling anyone what I THINK happens. I providing the RESULTS and the context. My batting average would have most testing me for performance enhancing chemicals...wait!...I am!

Now I've ran every Honda with 5W20 but again a high polarity oil with an exceptional HTHS value. High enough to exceed the SAE 30 minimum.

I just ran across an 5W30 with a HTHS value of a SAE 40. And there in Atlas lies the key. It isn't the SAE grade but the actual HTHS values and shear stability index results.

Looking for other outliers we could include those oils so light as to not support Stribeck but work due to enhanced AW chemistries. If you lean on these then the OCI needs to be short enough to not deplete their effectiveness.

The Toyota Crown calls for a 0W8 but as it is not yet sold here in any volume Toyota has cleared weights as high as 0W20 for warranty enforcement. A testament to the absurdity of 'heavy oils damage motors'.

Yes there are a few weird Spray Bore motors that don't like heavier oils due more to the hone finish. Special cases so no blanket statement will stand.

https://www.gm-trucks.com/why-gm-chose-0w-30-gen-6-v8-oil/

The swing back to reality continues…

Grumpy Bear · July 26

17 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

https://www.gm-trucks.com/why-gm-chose-0w-30-gen-6-v8-oil/

The swing back to reality continues…

How many years have I pointed out every point in that link to the folks here and been avalanched with criticisms and outright hostilities at times? I ran counter to even the great CUSTOMBOSS and Lake Speed Jr and the half dozen experts on YouTube and in the final.....GM, Physics (Stribeck) backs that Grumpy old Bear.

Honestly, I never said a thing engineering hadn't studied silly and laid in concrete during WWII. But I'm old, the information is old and yet, the Laws of Physics are eternal.

Okay there is one exception. I vehemently disagree with their use of the word 'tolerances' when what it meant is "clearance". The clearance is the distance between two objects. The tolerance is the degree of acceptable variation permitted in that clearance. I.E., piston to bore clearance is 0.004" with a tolerance of +/- .0002" so the clearance is in specification if it lies between 0.0038" and 0.0042". Cutting that 'tolerance in half has ZERO impact on lubrication requirements. Makes for more difficulty in manufacturing. But a tighter clearance 'MAY'. Depends on finish. Anyway....

It's one of those :bs: statements made by people to make themselves look smarter than they are to convince people who are as un-enlighten as they seem to manipulate their behaviors. But hey, the blind leading the blind puts them both in the pit. :crackup:

OnTheReel · July 26

Clearances haven’t changed in decades and looking at the oil spec of our same engines in other countries pretty much gives that argument up anyway. But yes, people still try.

Regardless, GM and all other automakers always knew the real risk is not with viscosity too high, but too low. They still played the game and finally have to admit defeat on this round.

Unfortunately they gave the DEXOS license to the M1 AFE 0w30, and not the much stouter ESP version which has a 3.5 HTHS. But hey, if a guy wanted to ignore DEXOS but still stay relatively “warranty safe” the ESP 0w30 is still API and seems to be a decent option. Certainly puts owners in a better spot than in the previous gen trucks where nothing API 0w20 would ever actually work.

Grumpy Bear · July 27

16 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Clearances haven’t changed in decades and looking at the oil spec of our same engines in other countries pretty much gives that argument up anyway. But yes, people still try.

Sleeve bearings have been about a thou per inch of diameter for over a hundred years. Piston clearances have changed back AND forth. I've heard there is a new forging alloy that can be fit as tight as a cast piston. That would be big news for small inch boosted OEM's but would have nil effect on oil weight. Hypereutectic cast pistons have/are used in Harley Davidsons at a thou bore clearances and still use 20W50. Yep, allot of smoke and mirror marketing.

Lower viscosity, lower AW levels (sacrificial chemistries) and longer OCI's depleting them. Toss in some poor QC not catching machining issues and it's amazing they lasted as long as they have.

Side note. that 0W* v 5W* noise is just that. Noise. Unless you live where it's > -22 F constantly. Zero weight is another fuel play. It's actually the majority of the fuel savings in a light weight oil. In my zip code we've had two days in a decade that it has been the cold. On those days both Pepper and I call in sick. :crackup:

Grumpy Bear · Friday at 09:38 PM

Assembling a Word Puzzle

A sentence in a famous sermon says:

“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them".

Forget it was a sermon and forget its religious nature. Assemble the puzzle. What did he say? I'm only going to unravel the part underlined.... Keep it simple and out of the ditch. It's a word puzzle not a religious class. I'm not writing a book. Okay..

By saying that people conscious of that stated need will receive; the implication is that there are also people that are not conscious and thus deprived.

But this one sentence also says that ALL people have this need, not just the ones aware of it.

NEED will try to lead you to satisfying it. You're thirsty, you seek water. You're hungry, you seek nourishment. You're cold, you find cover. Lack of awareness is a choice. So when he says "conscious' he isn't saying simply aware but aware and active in satisfying that need.

That's allot of information for eight words. This man knew how to craft a sentence...

Give that some thought the next time you read an advertisement or a book.