Hidden Dangers of Push-Button Start

[PMattras]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/connectedcar/hidden-dangers-of-push-button-start/ar-AAehp0x?li=AA8mH2

[MikeNH]

A dozen deaths over at least 10 years of keyless ignition? Please. This is stupid. Not concerned.

[newdude]

The headline of the article should have read: "The Hidden Dangers of the Lack of Common Sense"

[Spurshot]

All of the potential failure/hazard modes and effects are yet to be fleshed out. But I found one with my wife's Ford Flex. We separated the key from the car inadvertently one day when she got out and I drove somewhere else. Shut it down when the key isn't around and you're stuck.

 

Push button ignition does nothing of value for me. The system costs $$$. Key fobs for them run in the hundreds.

 

Real scenario: I'm hunting with a friend. I get out of the truck with it running to hunt. He gets in to drive to town for supplies.

 

Even if they put chimes and alerts in the truck, we've all heard so many of them, nobody reads an alert with the door open or when they don't have their belt on.

All of the potential failure/hazard modes and effects are yet to be fleshed out. But I found one with my wife's Ford Flex. We separated the key from the car inadvertently one day when she got out and I drove somewhere else. Shut it down when the key isn't around and you're stuck.

 

Push button ignition does nothing of value for me. The system costs $$$. Key fobs for them run in the hundreds.

 

Real scenario: I'm hunting with a friend. I get out of the truck with it running to hunt. He gets in to drive to town for supplies.

 

Even if they put chimes and alerts in the truck, we've all heard so many of them, nobody reads an alert with the door open or when they don't have their belt on.

[Spurshot]

How many of you believe "Chatty Cathy" when she says: "your door is a jar"?

 

Would you believe her if she said: " your key is a foot"? LOL

[MikeNH]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of the keyless systems. I've had too many act weird on me. But demanding action because a dozen people over probably as many years were too stupid to turn off their engines is a bit much to me.

[BlackZ71Silverado]

The headline of the article should have read: "The Hidden Dangers of the Lack of Common Sense"

 

EXACTLY!

 

If someone is too stupid to know the vehicle needs to be turned off, they shouldn't even have a license to drive.

[Spurshot]

Guys it's a completely different kind of vehicle. It will develop different habits. Human factors is a real engineering aspect. Consumer products are the most difficult to address human factors. There is virtually no formal training to operate a specific vehicle. At least with a professionally operated product there is opportunity for formal training.

 

As I understand this article, the drivers pulled into the garage, put the vehicle in park, the vehicle is perfectly silent and without vibration, there is no key in an ignition switch. There no que for the driver to do any further action, especially if they are interrupted in their normal shutdown by kids, dogs, who knows what. That interruption in normal memorized procedures is the stuff all kinds of accidents are made of, throughout human interaction with machines.

 

Toyota has found another failure mode and effect of the keyless push button by combining it with the hybrid Prius. If one of the people that died was your loved one, you might have a more sympathetic view of this.

[Imcrazy]

I love the push button on my Mazda.

[CAtaylor]

And sometimes they don't shut off, with a key you can kill the ignition. True Story to follow: My brother threw the drive shaft out from under his Ram RT pickup going down the interstate. He called me to come pick him up and said he couldn't get the truck to turn off. Sure enough I get there and it is being loaded on the tow truck still running. The knob gear selector wouldn't let him put the truck in park because the output shaft was spinning fast enough it thought the truck was still running ~15mph; it locked out park. Followed them to the dealership where it was unloaded at the service area but it was Sunday so he had to fill out a form and put his keys in the drop box. I wound up having to pull the ignition relay to kill the truck. Granted the stars aligned just right and allowed this screw up to happen but it just goes to show that there are ways for these systems to get screwed. I understand that under normal operating conditions any one of the reasons the truck would not go in park or turn off the engine would be a good one but I would rather be in control. Especially when it comes to killing an engine. Just a lot of bad things that could, can and do happen. If that drive shaft would have knocked a hole in the gas tank, which it very nearly did, the outcome of that situation could have been a lot worse.

Edit: Dbl post

[j-ten-ner]

...I understand that under normal operating conditions any one of the reasons the truck would not go in park or turn off the engine would be a good one but I would rather be in control. Especially when it comes to killing an engine....

 

Exactly!

I want to be the one making the call.

Not a BCM or TCM or ECM and certainly not a key fob.

 

so long

j-ten-ner

[PMattras]

I remember the "early" Ford Tempos didn't have a locking "park" transmission (automatic) when you shut off the vehicle. People would shut off there vehicles (take the key out) and forget to put it in park causing it to roll etc. after the driver left the vehicle. This was corrected on later models. I feel a lot of people don't engage the emergency brake (especially on automatic transmissions) when they leave the vehicle. A lot of people never drove (don't know how) a standard transmission now a days where the emergency brake is more important. Call it stupid or whatever but it does happen and people were hurt etc. by this small issue with the transmission. I don't know if this may be another issue with the push start because there is no key to take out. I don't have one. Do you have to put it in park before you can shut off the vehicle on automatic transmission?

 

What kind of warning (lights - buzzers etc.) would be necessary to prevent this issue? Safety is a big issue on the new vehicles and maybe this should be address accordingly even if it saves only a few lives. The cost would be very little in the price of the vehicle and most likely be a standard feature in future vehicles even if you don't like it..

[kstruckcountry]

The only reason a gear lock on the ignition is a good idea is anti theft. I drove a vehicle without a key or brake lock on the ignition for years and somehow I survived. A push button start will do all kinds of beeping and flashing if you try to get out or leave it in gear.

 

The parking brake should only be used if completely necessary, whether it's a manual or an automatic. Setting the brake in winter is a good way to strand yourself.

[SnakeEyeSS]

I love the push button on my Mazda.

 

Yup. Really missing it on my Tahoe after I sold my 6

[MikeNH]

Guys it's a completely different kind of vehicle. It will develop different habits. Human factors is a real engineering aspect. Consumer products are the most difficult to address human factors. There is virtually no formal training to operate a specific vehicle. At least with a professionally operated product there is opportunity for formal training.

 

As I understand this article, the drivers pulled into the garage, put the vehicle in park, the vehicle is perfectly silent and without vibration, there is no key in an ignition switch. There no que for the driver to do any further action, especially if they are interrupted in their normal shutdown by kids, dogs, who knows what. That interruption in normal memorized procedures is the stuff all kinds of accidents are made of, throughout human interaction with machines.

 

Toyota has found another failure mode and effect of the keyless push button by combining it with the hybrid Prius. If one of the people that died was your loved one, you might have a more sympathetic view of this.

 

 

There is no problem with the cars. We don't need lights or beepers to get people to turn it off. They should just know. It is on the owner/operator of the vehicle to be familiar with how it works. If they neglect to educate themselves then they deserve the fallout.

 

I rented 43 cars last year. I'm sure there were duplicates but even halving the number and saying I drove 20ish different models without issue proves it can be done. It's a ****ing car, it should be obvious to anyone that if they turned it on, they need to turn it off.