Oil change intervals

Cowpie · July 9, 2018

I have some issues with 0w20 in that it requires a hefty load of viscosity modifiers to make that stuff. A 5w20 is much more robust and able to do the job with less VM. I would not really have a problem using a 20 weight oil, just that I would use a 5w20 instead of a 0w20. And the dealer or the OEM couldn’t tell the difference if they wanted to.

it is those viscosity modifiers that break down under high heat and load.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Cowpie

KARNUT · July 9, 2018

Fuel injection used to be great - and it still is - it just changed dramatically the last five years with direct injection. Now we're blasting fuel right on top of the piston at 600-2000 psi. That stuff is getting into the oil. Carburetor cold starts? Picture an injector running rich right on top of a cold piston and rings that haven't expanded yet.

I hear (read) you ha ha. I only have one car that goes more than 7K miles a year. My car we use for trips, 90 percent HWY. Last year when I was looking two cars were offering great deals. Both had free two year service. Both do extended drains. I bought a Camry. They do 5K service, every other is for oil. I have 5 year 100K warranty from them too. People are pretty condition to do at least 5K oil changes. I can’t see them risking their reputation doing something that lessen the life of their engines when no one would complain about coming in every 5K. In the manual you have the option of running non synthetic, then they recommend 5K oil changes. My wife’s Genesis they want to see it every 3700 miles, it runs semi synthetic. They make you run the sever schedule. It still under warranty so I do it. I would be comfortable doing 5K non synthetic yearly on synthetic, not over 10K. I only average 100-120K miles per vehicle.

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Doublebase · July 9, 2018

31 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I hear (read) you ha ha. I only have one car that goes more than 7K miles a year. My car we use for trips, 90 percent HWY. Last year when I was looking two cars were offering great deals. Both had free two year service. Both do extended drains. I bought a Camry. They do 5K service, every other is for oil. I have 5 year 100K warranty from them too. People are pretty condition to do at least 5K oil changes. I can’t see them risking their reputation doing something that lessen the life of their engines when no one would complain about coming in every 5K. In the manual you have the option of running non synthetic, then they recommend 5K oil changes. My wife’s Genesis they want to see it every 3700 miles, it runs semi synthetic. They make you run the sever schedule. It still under warranty so I do it. I would be comfortable so 5K non synthetic yearly on synthetic, not over 10K. I only average 100-120K miles per vehicle.

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God I hope I'm not sounding like the oil change police, haha. I just like oil talk. Regarding Toyota, yup toyota went to 10,000 mile oil changes on engines that ONLY use 0w20, if the engine can run 0w20, 5w20 and 5w30, it must continue with 5,000 mile oil changes (even if it's using 0w20). Toyota was late to the direct injection party, they use it in their four cylinders now but their very popular 3.5 V6 I believe is still tune port injected (or it just went to direct injection). Also Toyota stays away from turbo charged engines and relies still on naturally aspirated engines (despite Honda going that route). Easier on oil. And as you said, Toyota still requires you to get your fluids checked at 5,000 miles (and to have the oil changed if its considered severe service).

But yeah Toyota seems to be doing fine with these extended drains, I've talked to some of their techs and they say the oil still looks good when they take it out. Toyota makes great cars, I'd consider them the most reliable vehicles on the road (I think they passed Honda years ago).

Edited July 9, 2018 by Doublebase

Grumpy Bear · July 9, 2018

32 minutes ago, Cowpie said:

I have some issues with 0w20 in that it requires a hefty load of viscosity modifiers to make that stuff. A 5w20 is much more robust and able to do the job with less VM. I would not really have a problem using a 20 weight oil, just that I would use a 5w20 instead of a 0w20. And the dealer or the OEM couldn’t tell the difference if they wanted to.

it is those viscosity modifiers that break down under high heat and load.

Depends on the base stock. Ground crude mineral oils, absolutely true. Even hydrocracked Group III's don't fair all that well.

Esters not so much. How much will be required is a function of the Viscosity Index, the slope steepness between the 40C and 100 C viscosities. There are several Esters that are naturally 0W20 without any pour point suppressants. 0W15 is in the future. Some POA/Ester blends that the add pack is under 10% of the can. Not unusual for Mineral based oils to contain 30% +.

Boy howdy! The fewer the better. The entire reason I'm such a heat management freak. Or...maybe I'm just naturally freaky.

I'm 5K on Synthetics and I use good ones and have lots of reserve cooling. If I were to return to Mineral based oils it would still be Phillips Trop-Artic, Shell Fire and Ice or Havoline 10W30 summer, 5W30 winter and 2500 mile changes. I use to be 7500 on my Honda's and never had an issue getting a quarter million from them. Body would fall apart sooner than the time it took to get than many miles one. None of those were DI however nor CDC equipped. Besides with as many as I have 5K is a number my mind will still process.

I'd rather eat a dull razor blade that use anything marked "Blend". By law it can contain as little as 5% Syn. product and qualify. The add pack could be that much. The rest could be Group I Panther <$&#.

KARNUT · July 9, 2018

God I hope I'm not sounding like the oil change police, haha. I just like oil talk. Regarding Toyota, yup toyota went to 10,000 mile oil changes on engines that ONLY use 0w20, if the engine can run 0w20, 5w20 and 5w30, it must continue with 5,000 mile oil changes (even if it's using 0w20). Toyota was late to the direct injection party, they use it in their four cylinders now but their very popular 3.5 V6 I believe is still tune port injected (or it just went to direct injection). Also Toyota stays away from turbo charged engines and relies still on naturally aspirated engines (despite Honda going that route). Easier on oil. And as you said, Toyota still requires you to get your fluids checked at 5,000 miles (and to have the oil changed its considered severe service).

But yeah Toyota seems to be doing fine with these extended drains, I've talked to some of their techs and they say the oil still looks good when they take it out. Toyota makes great cars, I'd consider them the most reliable vehicles on the road (I think they passed Honda years ago).

That’s cool, every one has their deal. I didn’t want to freak you out in the 90s we did the 25K miles deal. My brother put a series of filters on his truck and went 50K miles. It was a 5.9 two door Dodge with a blower. We we’re amsoil dealers. I changed the oil in my 94 Z28 4 Times in 130K miles. We did lots like that never any problems. Not that bold anymore pretty much stay with manufacturers recommendation. Oil just to cheap to take the chance.

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Cowpie · July 9, 2018

The “blend” thing can be goofy. One has to know what they are getting. The syn blend I referenced is 25% PAO Grp IV and 75/% Grp II+. It gets to be a bit of a gray area between Grp II+ and Grp III.

And depending on what factor is being addressed, Grp III has some properties that are better than Grp IV PAO. That is why I prefer mix of Grp IV and Grp III in the full syn stuff I use.

The point being, there is no one group that does everything better. Even the newer NG to liquid sourced base oils are carving their own niche between Grp III and Grp IV.

It ain’t your Daddy’s oil anymore. Even the modern mineral base stocks are far ahead of what they were 20 years ago.

MaverickZ71 · July 9, 2018

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Panther <$&#

Haven't heard that official term used in a while, since I worked in the oilfield back in the '80s!

Supreme Pizza · July 9, 2018

4 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Coolant getting into the crankcase could do it too.

Ya, that's true. The oil filter looks like it has been on there for several years though.

Grumpy Bear · July 9, 2018

1 hour ago, Cowpie said:

The “blend” thing can be goofy. One has to know what they are getting. The syn blend I referenced is 25% PAO Grp IV and 75/% Grp II+. It gets to be a bit of a gray area between Grp II+ and Grp III.

And depending on what factor is being addressed, Grp III has some properties that are better than Grp IV PAO. That is why I prefer mix of Grp IV and Grp III in the full syn stuff I use.

The point being, there is no one group that does everything better. Even the newer NG to liquid sourced base oils are carving their own niche between Grp III and Grp IV.

It ain’t your Daddy’s oil anymore. Even the modern mineral base stocks are far ahead of what they were 20 years ago.

I love learning new things. GIVE me Give me!!!!

Cowpie · July 9, 2018

Machinery Lubrication website has stacks of articles and papers on various base oils and such. Have at it.

Doublebase · July 9, 2018

2 hours ago, KARNUT said:

That’s cool, every one has their deal. I didn’t want to freak you out in the 90s we did the 25K miles deal. My brother put a series of filters on his truck and went 50K miles. It was a 5.9 two door Dodge with a blower. We we’re amsoil dealers. I changed the oil in my 94 Z28 4 Times in 130K miles. We did lots like that never any problems. Not that bold anymore pretty much stay with manufacturers recommendation. Oil just to cheap to take the chance.

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I love hearing the high mileage Amsoil stories. Thought about trying it out myself once but I chickened out at 10,000 miles using Mobil 1 Extended Performance. My buddy sells Amsoil 5w30 in his shop. A guy I know worked for Toyota when they were deveoplong their own oil through Mobil 1and going to the 10,000 mile intervals, they were all skeptical about doing those intervals, but the guys from Mobil 1 told them (off the record) that they would feel comfortable going 70,000 using their oil (just toppin up and changing filters). Haha. 70,000 miles using Mobil 1??? Not my cup of tea.

KARNUT · July 9, 2018

I love hearing the high mileage Amsoil stories. Thought about trying it out myself once but I chickened out at 10,000 miles using Mobil 1 Extended Performance. My buddy sells Amsoil 5w30 in his shop. A guy I know worked for Toyota when they were deveoplong their own oil through Mobil 1and going to the 10,000 mile intervals, they were all skeptical about doing those intervals, but the guys from Mobil 1 told them (off the record) that they would feel comfortable going 70,000 using their oil (just toppin up and changing filters). Haha. 70,000 miles using Mobil 1??? Not my cup of tea.

My Trailblazer ss oil monitor went between 12-15K on Mobil 1. I have lots of experience with amsoil in hydraulics and transmissions all good. Nowadays I use Mobil 1. Mainly because of its use in my Trailblazer.

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Cowpie · July 9, 2018

Grumpy, thought I would give you a starting point article and you can go on from there...

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends

From the article.....

A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Cowpie

Grumpy Bear · July 10, 2018

7 hours ago, Cowpie said:

Grumpy, thought I would give you a starting point article and you can go on from there...

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends

From the article.....

A modern Group III oil can actually outperform a PAO in several areas important to lubricants, such as additive solubility, lubricity and antiwear performance. Group III base oils can now rival PAO stocks in pour point, viscosity index and oxidation stability performance.

Form that same link: and as Paul Harvey would say. "Now for the rest of the story"

Quote: "0W-20 and 0W-30 engine oils, with their extremely low temperature performance requirements, will continue to be dominated by PAO-base fluids for the next few years. (bet it's longer than that unless they find a way to defy hydrocarbon physics) And what is the current trend in OEM specs for viscosity?

From that post the only example where they were offering a VI advantage was at 4.3 cSt at 100 C. That is the 100C viscosity minimum for a 10W. Not happing any time soon. What was that number? 123?

You can make an argument from cherry picked information. You just can't run an engine on it. Shall I continue?

There's a reason they said 'can' and not DOES or WILL. My grand-pappy use to say, "Every really good lie is 90% true"! Mom said, "IF (can) frogs had wings they wouldn't bump there butt when they jump".

I'm not picking on you sir. Liars are good at their professions. If they can't trick an informed guy they won't have a job long.

Oh, love this one: Consequently, they ( severely processed Group III) have exceptional purity with aromatics levels of much less than one percent, resulting in high thermal and oxidative stability. On the other hand, PAO stability depends largely on residual olefin content, which can be present at significant levels - up to five percent. There's that Can word again.

So the point is that if I compare the WORST PAO to the BEST Group III the group III wins? No, tell me it isn't so!

Oxidation test benefits were only valid in turbine oils with specific add packs. REALLY? The test in part were run on Hydraulic Oils? Because? Because any advantage is in stocks with 100 C viscosities below 4.3 cSt. Jack oil.

Words say Group III exceeds Group IV n NOACK and yet the graph show otherwise. Should have left that graph out I guess.

By this report Exxon/Mobil, the largest producer of PAO, should be shutting down all it's PAO operations. Anyone find it funny that the one who started the PAO rally quietly withdrew that material from the 'brand' that made it's name on it's back? Thank you Castrol. Well they are not; so bean counters being what they are???? Yea this is drivel. They pulled out because the lower group oil was cheaper. Thing is with the two additional refinery steps to get close to a PAO the cost is going to be greater than a PAO. This is long term recon at it's best.

There are several improvement statements made comparing the "severely processed Group III" to 'conventional synthetics' and even some more refined Group II stocks. What is a conventional synthetic? Non-severely processed ? Note the date on one charts base oil 1923!! Well I hope so. C'mon man.

Okay, okay....

So we need a new use for PAO's. How about blends with NP Esters? Wait!!!! Red Line?? Redline is not on the list of oils at PQIA. In fact I can't find a single Ester listed there. Why is that? How about VI's in clouds and NOACK a fraction of the 10W Group III's without major loads of any viscosity improvers nor solubility issues.

Red LIne 0W20 VI is 172! Noack is 9%! Pour point is -60 C - 76 F. 100C 9.1 cSt. 40 C 48 cSt. CCS 55 Poise at -35C (that's a mind numbing number).

Group III numbers at any processing level are not even in the same zip code.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Grumpy Bear

Doublebase · July 10, 2018

12 hours ago, KARNUT said:

My Trailblazer ss oil monitor went between 12-15K on Mobil 1. I have lots of experience with amsoil in hydraulics and transmissions all good. Nowadays I use Mobil 1. Mainly because of its use in my Trailblazer.

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I tend to just buy whatever is on sale, knowing I'll be dumping it at around 5,000 miles anyway.

I do take advantage of the yearly Mobil 1 rebate program they have every spring (although I missed it this year). If I remember ....receive $11 dollars off a five quart jug of Mobil 1 synthetic. So I'd buy six of them at Walmart on sale for $22 a jug ($132) and receive a check from Mobil 1 for $66...ends up being $2.20 a quart for Mobil 1. Unbelievable bargain. And unlike other brands that don't seem to send their rebate checks (hello penzoil), Mobil 1 actually follows through. Make sure to look for it next spring, if you don't already.