Oil change intervals

Doublebase · July 9, 2018

7 hours ago, starman8tdc said:

Car manufacturers are in the business of making money. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars paying "think tanks" to figure out how to make them even more money. The end product is of no concern. If they were allowed to manufacture money printing machines, they would immediately stop production, service, and support for all of the automotive lines. Its all about the money. As it should be. Its not a charity. Sad but true.

Good point, take BMW for instance....someone just mentioned the 15,000 mile BMW oil changes (because it's part of their "free" service). Well I know two BMW service reps, BMW tells them the life expency of their cars is now 100,000 miles. After that? BMW considers them done. They don't care, it's over. They realize their customer base sells them way before that and buys a new one...they don't care about the used car market.

BMW engines are failing at a rapid rate. BMW lowered the mileage of their oil change interval simply because the cost to replace engines outweighed the free maintenance they were giving away.

Doublebase · July 9, 2018

17 hours ago, Cowpie said:

I generally concur with what techs think, but not always. Many of them are no more up to speed on things than their non tech counterparts, depending on what is being discussed. Coolant is one area where I find techs are woefully not up to date. I have had to have techs replace coolant because they put in the wrong formulation. And that correction was required per both the shop and the OEM. But their argument is "coolant is coolant". Had a Cummins shop in Des Moines have to replace the coolant after filling with the wrong stuff. A tech in a Cummins shop should know better, right? And oils come in a close second along with oil change intervals. Like everyone else, they generally base it on "feeling" and the way daddy did it and hardly ever on real testing and evidence. I have no problem if someone wants to change their oil every other week. Not my money. But to rely on what a tech says or does probably should be taken with a grain of salt.

The same techs would think I am bonkers for taking my commercial vehicles 50% longer than the OEM recommendation for oil changes. But I have stacks of used oil samples showing I could go even longer. A Detroit 60 12.7L I have now has 856,000 miles on the engine. Original injectors, turbo, fuel pump, etc. And it still uses less oil than most of the GM pickups on this forum. 2 qt or less in 22,000 mile oil changes. And it gets a 10w30 HDEO syn blend. OEM says oil should be changed in 15000 miles / 300 hrs. It gets changed at 22,500 miles / 450 hrs. 50% longer.

Many techs don't realize that for some of the add pack components to reach their full effectiveness, modern oils in modern engines should be taken longer than 3000 miles. There is plenty of evidence for this over at the BITOG website where there are many tribologists and lubrication engineers to explain it to anyone.

I understand you don't think techs know what they're talking about regarding fluids, because in all honesty, it's the last thing they care about regarding vehicle repair. Many techs are far past the faze of changing oil, that's for kids coming out of tech school. Instead they're fixing the problems that arise when people neglect changing their oil; they're replacing the timing chains that have stretched, the EGR valves that are clogged (because the oil is being sent down the exhaust), the lifters, the rings, the check engine lights from misfires. When you start taking these things apart, and you see the carbon buildup, the worn components, the sludge (and you know that customer doesn't change their oil because you check the service history), you kind of get biased against some of the things you read on bobs the oil guy, or some of these used oil analysis.

I did NOT see these engine problems ten years ago that I am seeing now. Ten years ago everything was port fuel injected and timing belt. Now it's direct injected, timing chain and turbo. The rings got "less friction" to meet the cafe regulations that required these manufacturers to produce fuel efficient vehicles. Then one day we went from putting 5w30 in cars, to 0w20. Just like that.

You mention your fleet vehicles, as you know the Detroit 60 12.7 takes 40 quarts of oil. Totally different ballgame. The rpm's probably don't reach 1,300 on the highway. It might even have two oil filters and uses heavy weight synthetic oil. It's made to go a long time without coming in for service (because to take it out of service loses people money).

A GM truck takes 8 quarts, and uses a cheap E core filter. The block is aluminum. The valve train uses the oil to uncollapse lifters. It's being asked to flow freely through some pretty tight clearances, quickly. Then it's asked to seal rings that are no longer held against the walls with the same tension as engines 10-15 years ago. An injector is spraying directly in a cylinder at a bare minimum of 600psi, with a maximum of 2000. An engine ten years ago was operating with 50 psi, sprayed outside the cylinder. Now the oil gets a bath in fuel, regularly. It's an issue. No filter stops that. No additive can control it. You take a thin 0w20 oil and make it thinner with fuel. Then the fuel burns off and people send it to Blackstone. Yeah looks great! Go another 2,000 miles next time!

I'm not saying to change your oil at 3,000 miles, or 10,000 miles, or 20,000 miles. I'm just saying that there's a reason why GM lowered the mileage on their oil life monitors, why BMW lowered theirs. Why we are seeing more engine failures, ring replacement, valve train issues since the early 80's. It's because technology shifted towards the NUMBER ONE GOAL of fuel economy. Longevity and reliability has temporarily taken a back seat.

Cowpie · July 9, 2018

1 hour ago, Doublebase said:

You mention your fleet vehicles, as you know the Detroit 60 12.7 takes 40 quarts of oil. Totally different ballgame. The rpm's probably don't reach 1,300 on the highway. It might even have two oil filters and uses heavy weight synthetic oil. It's made to go a long time without coming in for service (because to take it out of service loses people money).

Well partially correct. The Detroit engine typically operates between 1400 and 1500 daily on the highway. It uses a 10w30 syn blend, not the traditional 15w40 that most folks use. Yes, the Detroit Lubrication Manual says 10w30 is ok to use. So, no, a heavy weight oil is not used. None of that Lucas Oil Snot either. A HDEO of the same grade as what goes into my wife's Cadillac and my 2500. A 30 weight oil. And it has sprayers for oil onto the piston bottoms just like any small vehicles does. And while it does only operate at 1400-1500 RPM daily, it does so while moving around an average of 70,000 lb of truck and cargo, year round, from -25F to 105F. So the oil in it probably undergoes a lot more than in a little 1/2 ton pickup. On the oil samples, the oil viscosity remains very much in grade. No shearing, but then, the 10w30 has very few viscosity modifiers compared to a 5w30. How many pickups in America are moving around something close to their max GCWR on a daily basis? And what is the kicker, after over 856,000 miles it doesn't use any more oil than it did when new. It has always used about 2 qt or less in 22,000 miles. FE levels in samples are roughly the same, Chromium, lead, copper, tin, etc all roughly the same levels as when the motor had 50,000 miles on it. Significantly lower than the threshold set by Detroit on the motor.

I will agree, it is not an apples to apples comparison, but some things are similar. Another example, GM calls for Mobil 1 5w30 in the wife's Cadillac. All it has gotten is Pennzoil conventional 10w30. Check the Petroleum Quality Institute of America website and their testing shows that the Pennz conventional 10w30 knocks the socks off many other oils, including many full synthetics (sorry Amsoil, but it beats even some of your Signature stuff of the same grade when it comes to NOACK ). PQIA even retested the product because they thought their data was wrong. It wasn't. Her Caddy is a 2006 with the 3.6L. Lots of timing chains running around in that engine with it's V6 DOHC setup. Many have had a lot of timing chain issues with that motor. Not ours. Purrs like a kitten and is a real keeper.

And the Caddy (and my previous '98 2500 pickup) gets the same Final Charge brand ELC nitrite free red coolant as my Detroit 60 also gets (and the Cummins ISX before it). And my 2015 2500 will get it also when the time comes to change out coolant. None of that GM Dexcool stuff.

I will agree that GM lowered the oil change interval. They did for the Caddy for sure. Was at around 11,000 now it is down to around 7000. But neither the caddy or the pickup only go 3000 miles on the oil. The pickup gets an oil change once a year, the Caddy gets an oil change at around 7000 miles. And that 12 year old car is still a keeper. And 3000 miles was the issue that started this discussion on my part. It is an archaic concept with modern oils and engines. Even my new Triumph Bonneville T100 900cc calls for a oil change at 10,000 miles. Of course, it uses a full syn. Triumph is not in the same game as the auto folks are when it comes to CAFE standards and such.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Cowpie

Supreme Pizza · July 9, 2018

I'm in the middle of replacing an engine in someones 2008 GMC Sierra 1500 5.3L. The engine has a bad rod knock, and blows blue smoke. Its a 10 year old vehicle, with a little over 100K on the odometer - so obviously not a manufacturer defect. Aside from insufficient oil maintenance, what else could cause such a failure?

One of my Suburbans has over 250K miles on the engine, and it runs perfect. No odd noises and doesn't burn any oil. Always had the oil changed at 3,000 miles.

Edited July 10, 2018 by txab

Loco-diablo · July 9, 2018

I get free oil changes and tire rotations for as long as I own the truck from my Chevy dealer.They tell me to bring it in when the OLM hits 20%. Which seems to be 6000 for the first 3 changes.

diyer2 · July 9, 2018

The debate goes on.

Like a lot of things in life it's your call.

I will continue to do 3 K oil and filter changes because it makes works for me.

I don't need oil analysis done, just change it.

I would rather change oil than rebuild a motor.

All I know is this has worked for me for years and I have had some high mileage vehicles that never had an engine failure.

My pickups were used as a work truck with the bed always full of tools, hauled material and towed trailers.

TXGREEK · July 9, 2018

The debate goes on.
Like a lot of things in life it's your call.

I will continue to do 3 K oil and filter changes because it makes works for me.
I don't need oil analysis done, just change it.
I would rather change oil than rebuild a motor.

All I know is this has worked for me for years and I have had some high mileage vehicles that never had an engine failure.
My pickups were used as a work truck with the bed always full of tools, hauled material and towed trailers.

[emoji4]

Absolutely correct, I change mine using only Mobile One oil and filter every 4-5K. My first oil change was 1K, second was 2500, third (just yesterday) was at 7K. My rear ended was changed out at 5K with Amsoil. I have a couple buddies that buzz around me when I’m selling trying to get me to sell them my trucks cause I maintain them very well. You’ll have a very dependable vehicle if you maintain them before manufacturers recommendation especially making sure you use a top notch oil filter like Mobile One.

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Grumpy Bear · July 9, 2018

I grew up on Phillips Trop-Artic 10W30, Ford and 2500 mile oil changes when one could buy a case (24 quarts) for $12 following Dad and Grandpa. In that day a motor with 60K was a trader and one with 100K...well...those were walk by cars/trucks. Thing is Dad and his brothers were not having much trouble getting three times that much mileage of an FE based Ford. 239 Flatheads went 600K to a million. I saw the internals of some of those motors when dad would drop a pan for an oil pump. Impressive. Unlike me, Dad likes to drive fast. Even at 90 years young 85 is his slow lane.

Boy did things change after 1970. The heat of the first generation SMOG motors was an oil killer. Thing was there wasn't ready access to synthetics yet and the ones that were, problematic and oil changes sooner than 2500? Oil prices were creeping up and motor life was again just average with 100K being a walk by.

When I got out on my own and started refining I gained access to a whole new world. Refineries have some pretty impressive laboratories. Oil and Fuel. I had a front row seat. Did two three year stints in Research on TDA's. Now there are some lab rats that would make MIT blush. Should too. Head Rats in charge of the cheese had multiple Doctorates from places like MIT, CSM & Oxford and with a much larger bank roll than any University. I got to see this stuff at the molecular level. Everyone's stuff.

Well retired a decade now and as fast as things change

Conventional oils use to have some serious differences in their base, that is ash, sulfur and wax content. You could have given me a Pennzoil Well back then and I wouldn't have run it in a lawnmower. Better living through chemistry they say and today those issues are nothing but lingering memories used best by marketing types and old wives. Entire sections of plants built to remove and standardize products. And yet the best of the best are still ground crudes with their inherent limitations. Add packages have not progressed as far as some would like to believe. Same basic chemicals are being used today that were used 40 years ago. Variance is mainly in concentration and packagers specific selection.

Major advancements in oil have come with synthetics. Even synthesized crudes such as Group III's that are just H2 full and finely cut are a good bump up but POA's and Esters are lightyear jumps.

Today the problem isn't knowing what a good oil is or even how often to change it. The problem is getting these LIARS to tell you what's in the bottle and no sir, SYNTHETIC doesn't tell you spit because these LIARS have corrupted the technical language to the point the word hasn't a meaning that is definite nor reliable.

Doublebase · July 9, 2018

2 hours ago, Cowpie said:

Well partially correct. The Detroit engine typically operates between 1400 and 1500 daily on the highway. It uses a 10w30 syn blend, not the traditional 15w40 that most folks use. Yes, the Detroit Lubrication Manual says 10w30 is ok to use. So, no, a heavy weight oil is not used. None of that Lucas Oil Snot either. A HDEO of the same grade as what goes into my wife's Cadillac and my 2500. A 30 weight oil. And it has sprayers for oil onto the piston bottoms just like any small vehicles does. And while it does only operate at 1400-1500 RPM daily, it does so while moving around an average of 70,000 lb of truck and cargo, year round, from -25F to 105F. So the oil in it probably undergoes a lot more than in a little 1/2 ton pickup. On the oil samples, the oil viscosity remains very much in grade. No shearing, but then, the 10w30 has very few viscosity modifiers compared to a 5w30. How many pickups in America are moving around something close to their max GCWR on a daily basis? And what is the kicker, after over 856,000 miles it doesn't use any more oil than it did when new. It has always used about 2 qt or less in 22,000 miles. FE levels in samples are roughly the same, Chromium, lead, copper, tin, etc all roughly the same levels as when the motor had 50,000 miles on it. Significantly lower than the threshold set by Detroit on the motor.

I will agree, it is not an apples to apples comparison, but some things are similar. Another example, GM calls for Mobil 1 5w30 in the wife's Cadillac. All it has gotten is Pennzoil conventional 10w30. Check the Petroleum Quality Institute of America website and their testing shows that the Pennz conventional 10w30 knocks the socks off many other oils, including many full synthetics (sorry Amsoil, but it beats even some of your Signature stuff of the same grade when it comes to NOACK ). PQIA even retested the product because they thought their data was wrong. It wasn't. Her Caddy is a 2006 with the 3.6L. Lots of timing chains running around in that engine with it's V6 DOHC setup. Many have had a lot of timing chain issues with that motor. Not ours. Purrs like a kitten and is a real keeper.

And the Caddy (and my previous '98 2500 pickup) gets the same Final Charge brand ELC nitrite free red coolant as my Detroit 60 also gets (and the Cummins ISX before it). And my 2015 2500 will get it also when the time comes to change out coolant. None of that GM Dexcool stuff.

I will agree that GM lowered the oil change interval. They did for the Caddy for sure. Was at around 11,000 now it is down to around 7000. But neither the caddy or the pickup only go 3000 miles on the oil. The pickup gets an oil change once a year, the Caddy gets an oil change at around 7000 miles. And that 12 year old car is still a keeper. And 3000 miles was the issue that started this discussion on my part. It is an archaic concept with modern oils and engines. Even my new Triumph Bonneville T100 900cc calls for a oil change at 10,000 miles. Of course, it uses a full syn. Triumph is not in the same game as the auto folks are when it comes to CAFE standards and such.

The timing chains on those Caddys were a real problem, me brother in law was the service manager at a caddy dealer...used to tell me about the timing chains. He told me the only ones that didn't go bad were the caddys from the rental car place down the street. He said they never used the oil life monitor or synthetic, just conventional and 5,000 mile oil changes. Not a single issue. Meanwhile the shop was filled with stretched chains for the customers that used the monitor, went 7,000 plus and used synthetics.

I personally don't change my oil at 3,000 miles, I've graduated to the "new school" thought of going 5,000 miles using synthetic. I initially wasn't a fan of the 0w20 oils - I'm still not - but oil viscosity and volatility worries me with the AFM and direct injection systems in this truck. I'm not going to experiment with it just yet (but that may change when the mileage gets high).

As for coolant, I generally use OE. I used to hate Dexcool, but I haven't seen an issue with it in a long long time. I've never heard of the coolant you mention, I'll have to look it up. I have seen some interesting coolant...Evans lifetime coolant seems interesting. Ford uses an additive pack with their coolant that needs replenishing with their diesels. Speaking of Ford, they must have 5 different coolants with their cars right now, can't keep up. Hybrid organic acid, organic acid, something else. On and on. I'm a firm believer in distilled water now (if it's not premixed). Honda received the "best coolant award", by some yahoo on YouTube. All I know is I won't be waiting till 100,000 miles to do a coolant service on my truck (I'll live on the wild side and change it at 70,000).

Have you ever relined the cylinders in your service truck? 856,000 miles is a lot of service. That's quite a success story. That thing is saving you a fortune.

diyer2 · July 9, 2018

35 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I grew up on Phillips Trop-Artic 10W30, Ford and 2500 mile oil changes when one could buy a case (24 quarts) for $12 following Dad and Grandpa. In that day a motor with 60K was a trader and one with 100K...well...those were walk by cars/trucks. Thing is Dad and his brothers were not having much trouble getting three times that much mileage of an FE based Ford. 239 Flatheads went 600K to a million. I saw the internals of some of those motors when dad would drop a pan for an oil pump. Impressive. Unlike me, Dad likes to drive fast. Even at 90 years young 85 is his slow lane.

Boy did things change after 1970. The heat of the first generation SMOG motors was an oil killer. Thing was there wasn't ready access to synthetics yet and the ones that were, problematic and oil changes sooner than 2500? Oil prices were creeping up and motor life was again just average with 100K being a walk by.

When I got out on my own and started refining I gained access to a whole new world. Refineries have some pretty impressive laboratories. Oil and Fuel. I had a front row seat. Did two three year stints in Research on TDA's. Now there are some lab rats that would make MIT blush. Should too. Head Rats in charge of the cheese had multiple Doctorates from places like MIT, CSM & Oxford and with a much larger bank roll than any University. I got to see this stuff at the molecular level. Everyone's stuff.

Well retired a decade now and as fast as things change

Conventional oils use to have some serious differences in their base, that is ash, sulfur and wax content. You could have given me a Pennzoil Well back then and I wouldn't have run it in a lawnmower. Better living through chemistry they say and today those issues are nothing but lingering memories used best by marketing types and old wives. Entire sections of plants built to remove and standardize products. And yet the best of the best are still ground crudes with their inherent limitations. Add packages have not progressed as far as some would like to believe. Same basic chemicals are being used today that were used 40 years ago. Variance is mainly in concentration and packagers specific selection.

Major advancements in oil have come with synthetics. Even synthesized crudes such as Group III's that are just H2 full and finely cut are a good bump up but POA's and Esters are lightyear jumps.

Today the problem isn't knowing what a good oil is or even how often to change it. The problem is getting these LIARS to tell you what's in the bottle and no sir, SYNTHETIC doesn't tell you spit because these LIARS have corrupted the technical language to the point the word hasn't a meaning that is definite nor reliable.

The last paragraph tells me to keep doing 3 K mile oil and filter changes.

swathdiver · July 9, 2018

3 hours ago, starman8tdc said:

I'm in the middle of replacing an engine in someones 2008 GMC Sierra 1500 5.3L. The engine has a bad rod knock, and blows blue smoke. Its a 10 year old vehicle, with a little over 100K on the odometer - so obviously not a manufacturer defect. Aside from insufficient oil maintenance, what else could cause such a failure?

Coolant getting into the crankcase could do it too.

DONWT15 · July 9, 2018

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Today the problem isn't knowing what a good oil is or even how often to change it. The problem is getting these LIARS to tell you what's in the bottle and no sir, SYNTHETIC doesn't tell you spit because these LIARS have corrupted the technical language to the point the word hasn't a meaning that is definite nor reliable.

This is absolutely true.

The American Petroleum Institute no longer uses the term "Synthetic" in their documentation regarding standards.

"Full Synthetic" is a marketing term and is not a measurable quality.

It may not have Dino oil in it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good lubricant.

KARNUT · July 9, 2018

My uneducated assumption is one of the reasons you can go longer between oil changes is fuel injection, electronic ignition, temperature management. I’m old enough to remember carburetor cold starts with mechanical chokes being good enough reason for 3K oil changes.

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DONWT15 · July 9, 2018

8 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

My uneducated assumption is one of the reasons you can go longer between oil changes is fuel injection, electronic ignition, temperature management. I’m old enough to remember carburetor cold starts with mechanical chokes being good enough reason for 3K oil changes.

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Yup

Doublebase · July 9, 2018

53 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

My uneducated assumption is one of the reasons you can go longer between oil changes is fuel injection, electronic ignition, temperature management. I’m old enough to remember carburetor cold starts with mechanical chokes being good enough reason for 3K oil changes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fuel injection used to be great - and it still is - it just changed dramatically the last five years with direct injection. Now we're blasting fuel right on top of the piston at 600-2000 psi. That stuff is getting into the oil. Carburetor cold starts? Picture an injector running rich right on top of a cold piston and rings that haven't expanded yet.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Doublebase