Oil change intervals

[Grumpy Bear]

9 hours ago, BigBlueLB756 said:

Is your AFM/DOD turned off by the diablo?

I know you are not asking me but if you were I would tell you I do my best to keep it on as much as humanly possible and that is allot. It normally turns itself off on the internal timer once up and rolling good. Not that you asked. 

[BigBlueLB756]

You are correct that the question was intended for Centrex14, who had the post previous to my inquiry.

[Crobinson16]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Oh boy! It's a great question but it's a dangerous one to answer. People are passionate about this topic. 

 

Let me ask two questions that may be a bit less dangerous. What makes a ring seal? If you get that one answered try the following. Which seal is more important; the one between the ring and cylinder wall OR the one between the ring and the ring land?  

 

 

answer a question with a question, ha ha .  there are many factors that go it to what actually makes rings seal. And I'm not going to go in to the whole thing. Let's just take it as your motor is no different then mine, or anyone elses for that fact.  (Not trying to be an a... )  from the stand point that as long as it hasn't been torn down and rebuild by a reputable machine shop that understands correct cylinder finish, clearance end gap of rings ect.. ect.  Now , if the motors are the same , I'm just asking as you stated you have excellent ring seal, what do you contribute to be the factor. Something you have contributed to help or improve ring seal? Or did you get a excellent built engine from the factory? I'm not trying to discredit you or anything like that, I was trying to get you to explain the dynamic of how oil plays a , notice I said a , effect in ring seal. You are much better at this internet thread typing and explaining then I am clearly.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Crobinson16

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, Crobinson16 said:

answer a question with a question, ha ha .  there are many factors that go it to what actually makes rings seal. And I'm not going to go in to the whole thing. Let's just take it as your motor is no different then mine, or anyone elses for that fact.  (Not trying to be an a... )  from the stand point that as long as it hasn't been torn down and rebuild by a reputable machine shop that understands correct cylinder finish, clearance end gap of rings ect.. ect.  Now , if the motors are the same , I'm just asking as you stated you have excellent ring seal, what do you contribute to be the factor. Something you have contributed to help or improve ring seal? Or did you get a excellent built engine from the factory? I'm not trying to discredit you or anything like that, I was trying to get you to explain the dynamic of how oil plays a , notice I said a , effect in ring seal. You are much better at this internet thread typing and explaining then I am clearly.

That was helpful Crobinsion16. No offence taken. Your right. We all get the same motor more or less. Mine are nothing special upon delivery. Not much handwork to them anymore. CNC everything and GM, all top manufactures for that matter, have it down pretty good. Fact is they are nearly broken it upon delivery. 'Nearly' the key word. Some key items. 

 

Current pistons are hypereutectic and fit often to under .001". They are also friction coated. Rings are whisper thin, hard and with great tolerance control. These things contribute to 'ring stability' in a way only the top engine builders of the past had access to. These GDI pistons have unusually  thick crowns and thrust faces. Robust ring land area all around. They also have under head oil jetting for cooling. 

 

Wall finishes are very fine and ring to bore, OD to ID nearly a lap fit. Fact is the rings are seated within minutes. The trick in a modern engine isn't getting them to seal, it's keeping them sealed. To do that you have to control both heat and cleanliness. 

 

The ring area is one of the hottest in the motor where excellent lubrication is required. One of the easiest to foul with what looks like amber/black lacquer. Limiting heat by keeping load and rpm moderate for several thousand miles is huge. My personal marker is 40K for this process. Fighting what heat you can't avoid with a great lubricant and changing it, and filter, like your wife changes her mind is, IMO, paramount.

 

No matter how well mated the parts are the early tightness of the motor is ridiculous. That makes tons of heat that tighten every part in you pride and joy. The parts are so hard and well coated it takes tens of thousands for them all to find their happy place. Also limiting start ups. GDI motors dump fuel on start up and the excess, while quickly gone, isn't helping the crazy thin layer of lubrication on the cylinder walls above the top ring. Run it long enough to fully warm and if possible at least a hour at normal operating temperatures. 

 

500, 1,000, 2,500, 5,000, that's my change interval. After that GDI is 5K and EFI and carburetor motors 7,500 if water cooled and 2,500 to 5,000 on air cooled depending on the amount of oil cooler and it's effectiveness in controlling bulk oil temperatures. 

 

Early on I use a good Group III. Quaker State, Valvoline, Havoline or Shell. WIX filters. Around 20K I switch to Red Line but AMSOIL would also be great. Any PAO or better. I use oil coolers and limit water temperatures. 212 F max no matter what on oil and anything under 200 F water. 180 F my go to for water. No colder.  I don't do extended oil changes and I don't invite trouble with oil temperatures over 212F. I don't care what the propaganda is saying. That reserve is for the odd emergency not the general rule.

 

I monitor the motors critical temperatures like my 16 year old daughters first date. By 40K your going to find that habit of moderation kind'a sticks with you.

 

ANY oil consumption that isn't a leak is trouble if it finds it's way into the combustion chamber. Knock is an end gas chemistry phenomena that is aggravated silly by oil in the chamber. 

 

 

 

[Centex14]

You are correct that the question was intended for Centrex14, who had the post previous to my inquiry.

It was turned off at a 116k miles.


2014 z71 LTZ
Volant Intake
Borla Exhaust
Diablo
Bilstein 5100
Rough Country Level

[Grumpy Bear]

PAO's and Esters have some wonderful solvency properties requiring little if any additional detergents. A plus is that it isn't heat activated. Change it often enough and the inside of your motor will look like the day it was assembled when it finally wears out. One of my favorite calls it to my contact at Red Line. "Dave, I retired another vehicle. Rotted so bad I have nothing to bolt parts too. Sadly it has a perfect drive train in it". 

 

When I use to come home from grade school with a hole in he knee of my jeans Dad would ask, "Is that a wear hole or a tear hole"?

It stuck with me and jumped up an bit me when I was in school learning about the nature of wear. Most believe a machine either wears out or breaks but you can tear one up without ever breaking it and have a torn up motor act just like a worn out motor. A tear hole can happen anytime. A wear hole takes forever under the right conditions. 

 

Now that I have the drive line maintenance sorted I've been working on structural integrity. Rust and such. 

[Doublebase]

15 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Yes in a vice. I needed both hands for the camera and lights. I wanted you to see the plastic all the way to the basement was dry as a desert bone. 

Right to the end.  Okay well look again. Oil has never been in that hose. Ever. You can run a gun patch through it and come up empty. Totally dry. Totally clean. 

Thank you. But don't sell yourself short. Anyone can. It's a matter of choice...don't you think?  

Oh boy! It's a great question but it's a dangerous one to answer. People are passionate about this topic. 

 

Let me ask two questions that may be a bit less dangerous. What makes a ring seal? If you get that one answered try the following. Which seal is more important; the one between the ring and cylinder wall OR the one between the ring and the ring land?  

 

 

Well good luck, keep us posted. Down the road if you're ever able to take a photo of the inside of your intake with your endoscope, I'd be interested in seeing what it looks like.

 

Wish we had the same engine and then we could kind of compare notes, etc. It sounds like we both do a lot of driving...easy driving. I'm at 30,000 miles a year but I may start using my wife's vehicle on the weekends to drop it down some. And I read through your maintenance post and you have similar techniques (engine break in, initial oil change intervals, etc). I will admit that I don't use as high a quality oil as you - then again I haven't reached 20,000 miles yet - but I have used a dexos approved synthetic since new, with a factory filter. First oil change was at 900 miles, then at 3,000...now I've settled in at 4,500-5,000 mile changes. I'm running Pennzoil Platinum right now.

 

what makes a ring seal? Tension? The ring to wall fit and ring tension. And I'd say lands would be abviously a huge factor after that point (if the rings were to get stuck in the lands). You've probably seen that before - when a ring is stuck in a land its like you don't have a ring at all. That correct or am I wrong?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Doublebase

[Grumpy Bear]

2 hours ago, Doublebase said:

What makes a ring seal? Tension? The ring to wall fit and ring tension. And I'd say lands would be abviously a huge factor after that point (if the rings were to get stuck in the lands). You've probably seen that before - when a ring is stuck in a land its like you don't have a ring at all. That correct or am I wrong?

You do drive allot and your initial oil change distance will be fine. I'm just OCD. Back in the day as they say the two motors I had that used oil were Pennzoil Motors. I swore to never use their products again. Use to scoop the original out of the valley area under the manifold in school buss motors with an ice cream scoop. Then...Shell bought them and I've had nothing but good to say about Shell so now....I don't know.  

 

Ring tension makes the introduction but it is combustion gas pressure behind the ring pushing outward and downward against the land the does the sealing. The seal between ring and land is equal in importance to the ring to wall seal. Tension is a few pounds and now sometimes just a few ounces. Ring tension alone without it's, (gas pressure)  behind the ring to balance those pressures would blow the rings off the wall. When we start to get lacquer in the land, even well before it sticks, the rings start to leak and a motor starts to use oil. More under heavier loading and higher rpm and it just gets worse from there. As you noted quite correctly, when they stick they might as well be broken or worn out. 

 

You've heard of Total Seal ZGS systems right? A thin ring in he same groove as the primary that seals off the gap to force all the gas behind the ring.  Go back further and builders use to gas port pistons drilling little holes from the piston tops to the back of the lands to the same purpose. Newer rings used by OEM's are fit tight and the gaps are also tight. The problem is that all of these methods put a lot of force on the ring under heavy loads thus wear is accelerated the harder we load the motor. It's great for sealing and for longevity when the loads are lighter but... A few guys tried gas porting blown motors. That does not work well. Something a fella should keep in mind with adding a turbo to a NA motor. Open those ring gaps. 

 

Anyway, I'm getting windy again. Clean....that's your word for the decade. CLEAN. That isn't just restoring but preventing that lacquer build up as well. If you use a high detergent oil or one with natural solvency  and a low NOACK, keep it under 212 F in the pan and change it often enough to keep the color out of the rocker box area (hint) your likely good to go. That will be shorter than you think but longer the better the detergency and suspension packages are and the better the cooling...to a point. Remember you have a good deal of control over cooling with your right foot. 

[Doublebase]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You do drive allot and your initial oil change distance will be fine. I'm just OCD. Back in the day as they say the two motors I had that used oil were Pennzoil Motors. I swore to never use their products again. Use to scoop the original out of the valley area under the manifold in school buss motors with an ice cream scoop. Then...Shell bought them and I've had nothing but good to say about Shell so now....I don't know.  

 

Ring tension makes the introduction but it is combustion gas pressure behind the ring pushing outward and downward against the land the does the sealing. The seal between ring and land is equal in importance to the ring to wall seal. Tension is a few pounds and now sometimes just a few ounces. Ring tension alone without it's, (gas pressure)  behind the ring to balance those pressures would blow the rings off the wall. When we start to get lacquer in the land, even well before it sticks, the rings start to leak and a motor starts to use oil. More under heavier loading and higher rpm and it just gets worse from there. As you noted quite correctly, when they stick they might as well be broken or worn out. 

 

You've heard of Total Seal ZGS systems right? A thin ring in he same groove as the primary that seals off the gap to force all the gas behind the ring.  Go back further and builders use to gas port pistons drilling little holes from the piston tops to the back of the lands to the same purpose. Newer rings used by OEM's are fit tight and the gaps are also tight. The problem is that all of these methods put a lot of force on the ring under heavy loads thus wear is accelerated the harder we load the motor. It's great for sealing and for longevity when the loads are lighter but... A few guys tried gas porting blown motors. That does not work well. Something a fella should keep in mind with adding a turbo to a NA motor. Open those ring gaps. 

 

Anyway, I'm getting windy again. Clean....that's your word for the decade. CLEAN. That isn't just restoring but preventing that lacquer build up as well. If you use a high detergent oil or one with natural solvency  and a low NOACK, keep it under 212 F in the pan and change it often enough to keep the color out of the rocker box area (hint) your likely good to go. That will be shorter than you think but longer the better the detergency and suspension packages are and the better the cooling...to a point. Remember you have a good deal of control over cooling with your right foot. 

Excellent.

 

And I'll have to keep an eye on how the Pennzoil performs during this interval - this is the first time I've used Pennzoil. 

 

You mentioned rust prevention in another post, you'll have to post what you're doing in the frame rust thread. I too am in the process of trying to protect my vehicle from rust (I live in the salt belt). I've used 3M, Fluid Film and some undercoati touch up on some areas where the wax came off. Curious to see what you're doing.

[Grumpy Bear]

My bet is it will be fine (Pennzoil). Where is the exact post on rust you would like me to look at. I'm game. 

[mookdoc6]

On 10/6/2018 at 3:05 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

Doublebase wrote: (Quote)You mentioned in another post that you can control what goes into your intake (probably by driving your vehicle responsibly and maintaining it correctly). You're going to disagree with me here, but I'm going to tell you that you can't. (End Quote)

 

Let's try it this way Doublebase: That sir is a macro photo of my PCV hose interior. That's the engine side and the other end looks identical.  Look carefully at the bottom of the well. Look at the seal and lock.  Nothing gets into my manifold that does not go through this hose from the crankcase. Agreed? It will pass for NEW it is that clean. So....what's a can going to trap? My methods are sound and work. 78,600 miles  of proof your looking at. 

 

Ask your instructor how any mist, oil, water, fuel or otherwise gets to the can without leaving a trace in the path is used to get there? 

 

Ask him how good he thinks my ring seal is? Ask if he thinks my oil is protecting well enough and cleanly enough. 

 

 

 

 

He is only the half the story kinda guy.....and now PAGE 2!  That stupid huge Black box 2ft by 3ft covering your view of the engine is a Catch Can...Wow, Novel crap man your inlet side is clean!  Meanwhile the valves flutter endlessly in and out of combustion coking away little by little nothing you can do about bra GDI it's the nature of the beast!  Keep driving it like a 88yr old your valves be coking away!  Catch cans help though not the end all be all....5K oil changes are just a waste?  Do me a favor drive 10K exactly and tell me what you burn?  I BET 100% close to 1/2 qt~!

 

Guess what that means?  I perfectly sealed engine......it will consume somewhere up to 1/2 qt at that mileage?  5k nope you would be hard pressed to even read a determinable amount so everybody just says...not a drop.....yeah OK?

[Black02Silverado]

6 hours ago, mookdoc6 said:

He is only the half the story kinda guy.....and now PAGE 2!  That stupid huge Black box 2ft by 3ft covering your view of the engine is a Catch Can...Wow, Novel crap man your inlet side is clean!  Meanwhile the valves flutter endlessly in and out of combustion coking away little by little nothing you can do about bra GDI it's the nature of the beast!  Keep driving it like a 88yr old your valves be coking away!  Catch cans help though not the end all be all....5K oil changes are just a waste?  Do me a favor drive 10K exactly and tell me what you burn?  I BET 100% close to 1/2 qt~!

 

Guess what that means?  I perfectly sealed engine......it will consume somewhere up to 1/2 qt at that mileage?  5k nope you would be hard pressed to even read a determinable amount so everybody just says...not a drop.....yeah OK?

Every vehicle is different.  Our 2016 Suburban is at 15k miles on this oil change and the dipstick still reads full. It isn't from fuel either since I can't smell any and it smells the same as when I changed it out at 500 miles when new.  I sent a sample off so here in a few days I'll see what fuel dilution it will have along with all the other stuff.  If I could have gotten it in the mail yesterday it would have been back to me by Friday. Dysonanalysis is quick on getting turnaround time for UOA's.

[mookdoc6]

2 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

Every vehicle is different.  Our 2016 Suburban is at 15k miles on this oil change and the dipstick still reads full. It isn't from fuel either since I can't smell any and it smells the same as when I changed it out at 500 miles when new.  I sent a sample off so here in a few days I'll see what fuel dilution it will have along with all the other stuff.  If I could have gotten it in the mail yesterday it would have been back to me by Friday. Dysonanalysis is quick on getting turnaround time for UOA's.

I will try him see what Crazy rabbit hole he recommends......

[Grumpy Bear]

8 hours ago, mookdoc6 said:

He is only the half the story kinda guy.....and now PAGE 2!  That stupid huge Black box 2ft by 3ft covering your view of the engine is a Catch Can...Wow, Novel crap man your inlet side is clean!  Meanwhile the valves flutter endlessly in and out of combustion coking away little by little nothing you can do about bra GDI it's the nature of the beast!  Keep driving it like a 88yr old your valves be coking away!  Catch cans help though not the end all be all....5K oil changes are just a waste?  Do me a favor drive 10K exactly and tell me what you burn?  I BET 100% close to 1/2 qt~!

 

Guess what that means?  I perfectly sealed engine......it will consume somewhere up to 1/2 qt at that mileage?  5k nope you would be hard pressed to even read a determinable amount so everybody just says...not a drop.....yeah OK?

So...you're not talking to me...you're talking about me? 

 

1.) Logic Trap 1:

 

Meanwhile the valves flutter endlessly in and out of combustion coking away little by little nothing you can do about bra GDI it's the nature of the beast!

 

True of any motor with valves GDI or otherwise; called reversion. Asked and answered. Stating an unrelated truth to make a lie seem true. 

 

2.) Logic Trap 2:

 

Catch cans help though not the end all be all....5K oil changes are just a waste?

 

Stating opinions to be facts to make an opinion seem like a fact. Mock humility to add weight. 

 

Logic Trap 3:

 

Do me a favor drive 10K exactly and tell me what you burn?  I BET 100% close to 1/2 qt~!

 

Guess what that means?  I perfectly sealed engine......it will consume somewhere up to 1/2 qt at that mileage?  5k nope you would be hard pressed to even read a determinable amount so everybody just says...not a drop.....yeah OK?

 

Change the context to make a true statement seem a lie. "Not a drop" is removed from the context of 5K and inserted into a context of 10K to make it appear the statement is true in any context. Add a sprinkle of condescension. 

 

Logic Trap 4:  

 

Wow, Novel crap man your inlet side is clean!  

 

Condescending dismissal of the obvious meant to discredit the obvious. You say a catch can is the savior for valve build up and then by your own observation give evidence that there is nothing to protect it from. (Dry inlet). Earlier you elude that the valves flutter endlessly in and out of combustion as the cause of the build up. In which case the can is useless. You sound really confused. 

 

Logic Trap 5:

 

That stupid huge Black box 2ft by 3ft covering your view of the engine is a Catch Can. 

 

Leading with a lie to lend credence to the remaining logic traps. 

 

Logic Trap 6:

 

Keep driving it like a 88yr old your valves be coking away! 

 

Belittlement. Make yourself seem larger by making your foe seem small. Plus, one has nothing to do with the other yet stating them together appears to lend a connection that does not exist. 

 

Just plain funny, #7: 

 

Do me a favor drive 10K exactly and tell me what you burn? 

 

And now you want a favor done with precision. I'm not sure how to punctuate that. 

 

Were you drinking when you wrote this? You sound like you've been drinking. 

 

3 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

Every vehicle is different.  Our 2016 Suburban is at 15k miles on this oil change and the dipstick still reads full. It isn't from fuel either since I can't smell any and it smells the same as when I changed it out at 500 miles when new.  I sent a sample off so here in a few days I'll see what fuel dilution it will have along with all the other stuff.  If I could have gotten it in the mail yesterday it would have been back to me by Friday. Dysonanalysis is quick on getting turnaround time for UOA's.

Ah! The scientific approach. Reason!!

 

Just curious rick. Have you ever seen 62,500 ppm combine fuel and water in a UOA report for viable motor? (1/2 quart in 8). That is his claim correct? Actually should be higher as the claim is for 10K not 15K. I'm not sure how he would estimate that. Concedes zero in 5K, states as fact a 1/2 quart at 10K. What should we call fair for 15K. That is the value he would have to produce to cover such a claim. Double check my math. 

 

[mookdoc6]

35 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

So...you're not talking to me...you're talking about me? 

 

1.) Logic Trap 1:

 

Meanwhile the valves flutter endlessly in and out of combustion coking away little by little nothing you can do about bra GDI it's the nature of the beast!

 

True of any motor with valves GDI or otherwise; called reversion. Asked and answered. Stating an unrelated truth to make a lie seem true. 

 

2.) Logic Trap 2:

 

Catch cans help though not the end all be all....5K oil changes are just a waste?

 

Stating opinions to be facts to make an opinion seem like a fact. Mock humility to add weight. 

 

Logic Trap 3:

 

Do me a favor drive 10K exactly and tell me what you burn?  I BET 100% close to 1/2 qt~!

 

Guess what that means?  I perfectly sealed engine......it will consume somewhere up to 1/2 qt at that mileage?  5k nope you would be hard pressed to even read a determinable amount so everybody just says...not a drop.....yeah OK?

 

Change the context to make a true statement seem a lie. "Not a drop" is removed from the context of 5K and inserted into a context of 10K to make it appear the statement is true in any context. Add a sprinkle of condescension. 

 

Logic Trap 4:  

 

Wow, Novel crap man your inlet side is clean!  

 

Condescending dismissal of the obvious meant to discredit the obvious. You say a catch can is the savior for valve build up and then by your own observation give evidence that there is nothing to protect it from. (Dry inlet). Earlier you elude that the valves flutter endlessly in and out of combustion as the cause of the build up. In which case the can is useless. You sound really confused. 

 

Logic Trap 5:

 

That stupid huge Black box 2ft by 3ft covering your view of the engine is a Catch Can. 

 

Leading with a lie to lend credence to the remaining logic traps. 

 

Logic Trap 6:

 

Keep driving it like a 88yr old your valves be coking away! 

 

Belittlement. Make yourself seem larger by making your foe seem small. Plus, one has nothing to do with the other yet stating them together appears to lend a connection that does not exist. 

 

Just plain funny, #7: 

 

Do me a favor drive 10K exactly and tell me what you burn? 

 

And now you want a favor done with precision. I'm not sure how to punctuate that. 

 

Were you drinking when you wrote this? You sound like you've been drinking. 

 

Ah! The scientific approach. Reason!!

 

Just curious rick. Have you ever seen 62,500 ppm combine fuel and water in a UOA report for viable motor? (1/2 quart in 8). That is his claim correct? Actually should be higher as the claim is for 10K not 15K. I'm not sure how he would estimate that. Concedes zero in 5K, states as fact a 1/2 quart at 10K. What should we call fair for 15K. That is the value he would have to produce to cover such a claim. Double check my math. 

 

Frumpy....Drive your little truck 10k the "GDI" you will consume up to 1/2qt I guarantee it!  I know you state concrete scientific facts...Not burned a drop @ 5k?  yeah..OK PROVE me wrong I made it to 8th grade and reading your diatribes would make any sane person puke!