Japanese Disaster

tanked_darren · March 17, 2011

What terrible things that have happened to that region! Its amazing theres no looting or rioting! You think they'd act like that in the US?

I hope that plant doesn't meltdown!

Maybe the 2012 prophecies are true?

Zed-Seventy-One · March 17, 2011

Its funny everyone is amazed there is no looting. The difference between the Japanese culture and ours is simple, honor, means something to them.

old-chevy-dude · March 17, 2011

well I won't comment on the doom and gloom of the 2012 prophecies, but we are approaching some celestial events never witnessed but mankind, currently the moon is some 400 miles closer to earth in it's orbit than it has been in 18 years, and the Galactic alignment will be occurring in the next 2 years, where-in all the planets will be in direct alignment with the sun and the center of galaxy.

the gravitational forces at play under these circumstances have to wreak havoc on our planet, even though most "scientists" and Astronomists say they don't, I find it hard to believe, I mean you can do simple experiments with magnets to mimic the gravitational pulls on the planet and plainly see that there is a cause and effect result.

but all in all it comes down to this, there is more media and news and information flow faster than ever before, these events have been going on for decades, the only difference today is we are now connected to them anywhere in the world at any time and have up to the second updates (facebook, twittier, world wide web, etc).

they've always occurred, but now we see it as it happens and don't hear about it 3 days later, like we did 30 years ago.

jtramsey · March 17, 2011

except this is 2011.

What terrible things that have happened to that region! Its amazing theres no looting or rioting! You think they'd act like that in the US?

I hope that plant doesn't meltdown!

Maybe the 2012 prophecies are true?

music · March 17, 2011

Frankly, at this point, a partial melt down won't change the cleanup scope much, unless it hits a water table. Don't confuse "melt down" with "blow up". These reactors can*not* go super critical (i.e., no mushrooms). Maybe a steam explosion, or dissociated hydrogen explosion... but it is impossible for them to undergo nuclear detonation. It is sad that they slid so slowly to this state, from their initial (recoverable) position, mostly because they lost backup power for their pumps. If Japanese have a fault, it is pride. They should have asked for our direct support immediately. They have an excellent nuclear program, but they are relatively thin on expertise compared to us. Heck, it's an American BWR design they are running...

Major_Kong · March 17, 2011

Its funny everyone is amazed there is no looting. The difference between the Japanese culture and ours is simple, honor, means something to them.

+1

When Katrina struck, it was embarrassing to see the looting and civil disobedience taking place. I remember thinking at the time that the world must think that we are a bunch of animals. But then again it's hard to say how you would personally react to a catastrophic event like that.

Spurshot · March 17, 2011

Frankly, at this point, a partial melt down won't change the cleanup scope much, unless it hits a water table. Don't confuse "melt down" with "blow up". These reactors can*not* go super critical (i.e., no mushrooms). Maybe a steam explosion, or dissociated hydrogen explosion... but it is impossible for them to undergo nuclear detonation. It is sad that they slid so slowly to this state, from their initial (recoverable) position, mostly because they lost backup power for their pumps. If Japanese have a fault, it is pride. They should have asked for our direct support immediately. They have an excellent nuclear program, but they are relatively thin on expertise compared to us. Heck, it's an American BWR design they are running...

Hey Robert,

I concur with what you stated. You sound like you're in the biz. I worked in the R&D end of centrifuge development back in the 70s and 80s as did my wife. She went on to work in Rocky Flats and then out of that biz later. The safety guys are likely flabbergasted that their redundancies were all defeated by a common mode. This will undoubtedly result in reassessing redundant systems in all nuc plants and years of reworking them.

For anyone wanting to donate to relief, PayPal has some links.

old-chevy-dude · March 17, 2011

Its funny everyone is amazed there is no looting. The difference between the Japanese culture and ours is simple, honor, means something to them.

+1

When Katrina struck, it was embarrassing to see the looting and civil disobedience taking place. I remember thinking at the time that the world must think that we are a bunch of animals. But then again it's hard to say how you would personally react to a catastrophic event like that.

it isn't hard at all. if you are raised with a sense of responsibility you don't involve yourself in such stupidness. I was around for the L.A. Riots, and several of the larger earthquakes here (Northridge and Whittier) and we had structural damage to our home making it unlivable until it was repaired and we were never tempted to steal and loot.

tanked_darren · March 17, 2011

Yeah Im not confusing a meltdown with blowing up, if they have a meltdown doesn't that mean the fuel becomes too hot to stay where its contained and "melts through" sending radiation out?

music · March 17, 2011

Hey Robert,
I concur with what you stated. You sound like you're in the biz. I worked in the R&D end of centrifuge development back in the 70s and 80s as did my wife. She went on to work in Rocky Flats and then out of that biz later.

My profession is nuclear and radiation measurements/safety. My formal education is physics & nuclear engineering. I keep a low profile about it on forums (don't discuss at all, actually), but I kinda slipped up and responded. This is a topic where maybe I can help folks understand a little better. Pretty cool that you worked at Rocky. That's one site I never visited.

Yeah Im not confusing a meltdown with blowing up, if they have a meltdown doesn't that mean the fuel becomes too hot to stay where its contained and "melts through" sending radiation out?

That's pretty much it, except that the word "radiation" is used out of context on TV. Technically, radiation is emitted (e.g., gamma, neutron, etc) and radioactive material gets blown out (fission product radionuclides). The reactor scram would have automatically dropped the control rods, and effectively killed the self-sustained nuclear fission process. They would have then dumped as much boric acid in as possible (absorbing more neutrons). Decay heat from residual fission products is very high, though, and can melt fuel cladding, and anything else. When that happens, radioactive material (solid & gas) can/will escape from the (normally) sealed capsules and move to wherever the hot gas/force would normally take it. If the primary containment is breached or vented, some of these are long enough lived to make it past the site boundary, and some will go around the world (in very small concentration by that point). Most of the material will melt/flow down into a puddle somewhere below the operating region and solidify---hopefully, inside containment or secondary barriers. For a case such as we're currently witnessing, nobody knows exactly, as it depends greatly on their actions. My personal guess, today, is that there has already been partial failures in sub-sections of the assemblies, but primary containment is intact. Current offsite releases are likely coming from overheated spent rods in storage pools that lost coolant, plus containment venting.

I wanted to respond and provide a little info, but it's not something that I would normally discuss on a truck forum. Sorry about that!

beave84 · March 17, 2011

Hey Robert,
I concur with what you stated. You sound like you're in the biz. I worked in the R&D end of centrifuge development back in the 70s and 80s as did my wife. She went on to work in Rocky Flats and then out of that biz later.

My profession is nuclear and radiation measurements/safety. My formal education is physics & nuclear engineering. I keep a low profile about it on forums (don't discuss at all, actually), but I kinda slipped up and responded. This is a topic where maybe I can help folks understand a little better. Pretty cool that you worked at Rocky. That's one site I never visited.

Yeah Im not confusing a meltdown with blowing up, if they have a meltdown doesn't that mean the fuel becomes too hot to stay where its contained and "melts through" sending radiation out?

That's pretty much it, except that the word "radiation" is used out of context on TV. Technically, radiation is emitted (e.g., gamma, neutron, etc) and radioactive material gets blown out (fission product radionuclides). The reactor scram would have automatically dropped the control rods, and effectively killed the self-sustained nuclear fission process. They would have then dumped as much boric acid in as possible (absorbing more neutrons). Decay heat from residual fission products is very high, though, and can melt fuel cladding, and anything else. When that happens, radioactive material (solid & gas) can/will escape from the (normally) sealed capsules and move to wherever the hot gas/force would normally take it. If the primary containment is breached or vented, some of these are long enough lived to make it past the site boundary, and some will go around the world (in very small concentration by that point). Most of the material will melt/flow down into a puddle somewhere below the operating region and solidify---hopefully, inside containment or secondary barriers. For a case such as we're currently witnessing, nobody knows exactly, as it depends greatly on their actions. My personal guess, today, is that there has already been partial failures in sub-sections of the assemblies, but primary containment is intact. Current offsite releases are likely coming from overheated spent rods in storage pools that lost coolant, plus containment venting.

I wanted to respond and provide a little info, but it's not something that I would normally discuss on a truck forum. Sorry about that!

THANK YOU ROBERT

I'm an Electrical Engineer by trade and its refreshing to hear an honest,fact based statement about what is going on in Japan. People need to hear more from people such as yourself, instead of these reporters that twist and pull a story to make it seem as though the world has come to an end and we're all gonna glow green .

I also agree with old-chevy-dude in that we have amazing access to information today that plugs us into current events instantly.

ryan_hermanutz · March 17, 2011

Well since we have some guys in here that know more than the rest of us, what is your take on unit 3 that has MOX and Plutonium. If that one goes into a full melt-down is that the one that would really do the damage?

music · March 18, 2011

Well since we have some guys in here that know more than the rest of us, what is your take on unit 3 that has MOX and Plutonium. If that one goes into a full melt-down is that the one that would really do the damage?

I'm not familiar with the Fukushima plants, but I can offer a quick bit of info on the question of MOX fuel. MOX stands for "mixed oxide", and implies that some amount of Pu-239 has been mixed with uranium fuel. To my knowledge, existing commercial MOX fuel runs a maximum of ~10% Pu by mass. A few points to consider:

- All uranium reactors produce Pu as a natural product. Some of the Pu is subsequently "burned" to produce extra power. This is unavoidable.

- Pure Pu has a higher dose coefficient than natural uranium, and is typically more controlled for health protection purposes. However, enriched uranium (U*) has very different health protection requirements than natural U.

- Adding Pu to U* fuel increases it's "fissionability", without having to concentrate U-235 via expensive, physical methods.

- Regardless of which fuel, after being in an operating reactor for a short period, fission products *by far* dominate the potential health risk from exposure. This is true for both direct (radiation) and uptake (inhalation/ingestion/etc). In a very real way, the fission products protect the fuel from being tampered with easily. You can't get anywhere close to it without substantial shielding.

If the reactor blew it's entire contents into the sky, the last thing you would be concerned about is whether it was U* or Pu, since either will represent a minuscule fraction of the total radiological hazard, for a very long time.

05GMCZ71 · March 18, 2011

There is nothing to loot. That's why there is no looting. Everything in the damaged region is more or less destroyed/not worth anything. Pride has nothing to do with it. There is no pride.

truckofwinandawesome · March 18, 2011

My profession is nuclear and radiation measurements/safety. My formal education is physics & nuclear engineering. I keep a low profile about it on forums (don't discuss at all, actually), but I kinda slipped up and responded. This is a topic where maybe I can help folks understand a little better. Pretty cool that you worked at Rocky. That's one site I never visited.

I wanted to respond and provide a little info, but it's not something that I would normally discuss on a truck forum. Sorry about that!

I take it you either work in or around Oak Ridge? its no problem that you spoke up, these events at the Fukushima Plants relate to how you make a living, and you can clear the air of any misconceptions or myths.