Sugar Bears 2015 GMC Terrain SLE-2 2.4 AWD

KARNUT · July 14, 2023

52 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

If it turns out to be the water pump, I doubt I will toss her in lieu of a proper repair.

This isn't that hard for me. If I replace the entire driveline, it cost a fraction of anything new that would be equal to it. Then I get to look into a whole new abys. More unknows. Better the devil I know ......

We used to change our timing change by 100K miles along with the water pump. I’ve never seen a bad water pump leak into the oil. Seems if that’s the case the water pump should be on the 100K maintenance. Just happened that 3 of my vehicles had water pumps at around 100K miles. None needed it. It was part of other maintenance. My truck at 150K just before I got it. I believe if you knew a water pump could leak water internally it would have been changed as prevented maintenance. Just goes to show there’s always something that could shut you down.

Grumpy Bear · July 14, 2023

14 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

We used to change our timing change by 100K miles along with the water pump. I’ve never seen a bad water pump leak into the oil. Seems if that’s the case the water pump should be on the 100K maintenance. Just happened that 3 of my vehicles had water pumps at around 100K miles. None needed it. It was part of other maintenance. My truck at 150K just before I got it. I believe if you knew a water pump could leak water internally it would have been changed as prevented maintenance. Just goes to show there’s always something that could shut you down.

I whiffed this one. Caught me flat footed Stan. I should have done it the first time it went in for that plugged orifice. I have no excuse and no valid reason for missing this. Now I pay the Piper for the song I called. :dunno:

But brother, it's still a stupid design. Bolted to the backside of the timing chest between the firewall and motor and driven by a chain from that chest. When the shaft leaks. Drips into chain case. There is a weep hole but so buried it would have to gush to be noticed.

KARNUT · July 14, 2023

2 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I whiffed this one. Caught me flat footed Stan. I should have done it the first time it went in for that plugged orifice. I have no excuse and no valid reason for missing this. Now I pay the Piper for the song I called.

But brother, it's still a stupid design. Bolted to the backside of the timing chest between the firewall and motor and driven by a chain from that chest. When the shaft leaks. Drips into chain case. There is a weep hole but so buried it would have to gush to be noticed.

I’m sure there’s a good reason that GM decided that was a good set up.

Grumpy Bear · July 17, 2023

7/16/2023

Okay it passed the pressure check. Held 15 psi for over an hour. Did I mention that no coolant has been added to this vehicle since it was changed at around 150K miles?

So,..........we are going to drop a dye pack in the radiator and check the oil in a few days with a black light.

Glycol In Lubricating Oil - Detection, Analysis and Removal (machinerylubrication.com)

Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR)
Many oil analysis laboratories use this procedure for analyzing used oil molecular properties routinely. Practicing Oil Analysis magazine has covered infrared spectroscopy in several issues. Common target properties detected and measured with FTIR include soot load, water contamination, fuel dilution, oxidation, nitration and sulphation. Many labs also report absorption bands commonly associated with ethylene glycol.

While there is much merit to including glycol among the various properties reported by infrared, there are also interferences and lower sensitivity limits that labs and users need to be aware of. The interferences relate to other properties and contaminants that share common spectral absorption regions with glycol.

For instance, the strongest band for glycol, a broad region around 3450 cm-1 corresponding to the O-H functional group, is also cohabited by water and other alcohols that have similar functionality. Because water is blended with antifreeze (ethylene glycol) to form coolant, the distinction is often impossible to make.

There is however, a more unique band for ethylene glycol at 1070-1030 cm-1 corresponding to the C-O functional group, that is commonly used because there are fewer overlapping bands from other oil contaminants and degradation by-products (Figure 6). The main risk in this region is associated with certain additives (such as barium sulfonate) and oxygenated compounds (ethers, lactones and alcohols) from base oil and additive degradation.

As with water contamination, there is very limited ability using FTIR to detecting glycol concentration below 1,000 ppm. Just like the Schiff’s reagent test, FTIR also relies on the presence of molecular glycol. However, because glycol can rapidly degrade chemically and thermally as previously mentioned, its presence in used oil may be completely disguised. In this instance, for FTIR to be successful, an astute analyst would need to recognize the absorption bands of glycol’s several transformation products.

Limits and Alarms

Setting alarms and limits for glycol is difficult because of the different oil analysis instruments in use and the transient states of glycol in the lubricant. To the extent that the analyst can confirm a coolant leak, no matter how small, the matter is of serious concern. However, false positives can occur if the alarm limits are set too low for the reasons previously discussed. Likewise, if the alarms are set too high, the actual coolant leakage levels could be several times higher than the measured amounts and the engine may be dangerously close to catastrophic failure.

In the case where false positives occur as a result of new oil chemistry associated with additive manufacturing and base oil refining, the interferences that cause these false positives often burn off during service. Hence a new reference oil or an oil placed into service a short period of time may test positive for glycol, then later test negative.

When a false positive due to oil chemistry occurs in labs that report the result of a glycol test (Schiff’s reagent, FTIR and GC) they are typically bound to place a positive indication on the report. However, based on their review of other indicators (including coolant additive elements) as previously discussed, the analyst commenting on the oil analysis data should emphasize that the positive glycol result is not a cause for concern.

Some labs use the approach of reporting coolant or antifreeze contamination instead of glycol to eliminate this potential cause for unwarranted concern. The same principle holds true in the case of a negative glycol test where its presence is disguised by the fact that it has converted to by-products.

Looking at other indicators such as sodium and potassium, the analyst should report a positive for coolant contamination despite the fact that no actual glycol was detected. In such instances, the lab analyst is making a contamination entry determination based on review of multiple factors.

In general, glycol above 200 ppm in most cases is considered reportable. Levels greater than 400 ppm should be regarded as significant and levels as high as 1,000 ppm flagged as critical.

KARNUT · July 17, 2023

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

7/16/2023

Okay it passed the pressure check. Held 15 psi for over an hour. Did I mention that no coolant has been added to this vehicle since it was changed at around 150K miles?

So,..........we are going to drop a dye pack in the radiator and check the oil in a few days with a black light.

Glycol In Lubricating Oil - Detection, Analysis and Removal (machinerylubrication.com)

Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR)
Many oil analysis laboratories use this procedure for analyzing used oil molecular properties routinely. Practicing Oil Analysis magazine has covered infrared spectroscopy in several issues. Common target properties detected and measured with FTIR include soot load, water contamination, fuel dilution, oxidation, nitration and sulphation. Many labs also report absorption bands commonly associated with ethylene glycol.

While there is much merit to including glycol among the various properties reported by infrared, there are also interferences and lower sensitivity limits that labs and users need to be aware of. The interferences relate to other properties and contaminants that share common spectral absorption regions with glycol.

For instance, the strongest band for glycol, a broad region around 3450 cm-1 corresponding to the O-H functional group, is also cohabited by water and other alcohols that have similar functionality. Because water is blended with antifreeze (ethylene glycol) to form coolant, the distinction is often impossible to make.

There is however, a more unique band for ethylene glycol at 1070-1030 cm-1 corresponding to the C-O functional group, that is commonly used because there are fewer overlapping bands from other oil contaminants and degradation by-products (Figure 6). The main risk in this region is associated with certain additives (such as barium sulfonate) and oxygenated compounds (ethers, lactones and alcohols) from base oil and additive degradation.

As with water contamination, there is very limited ability using FTIR to detecting glycol concentration below 1,000 ppm. Just like the Schiff’s reagent test, FTIR also relies on the presence of molecular glycol. However, because glycol can rapidly degrade chemically and thermally as previously mentioned, its presence in used oil may be completely disguised. In this instance, for FTIR to be successful, an astute analyst would need to recognize the absorption bands of glycol’s several transformation products.

Limits and Alarms

Setting alarms and limits for glycol is difficult because of the different oil analysis instruments in use and the transient states of glycol in the lubricant. To the extent that the analyst can confirm a coolant leak, no matter how small, the matter is of serious concern. However, false positives can occur if the alarm limits are set too low for the reasons previously discussed. Likewise, if the alarms are set too high, the actual coolant leakage levels could be several times higher than the measured amounts and the engine may be dangerously close to catastrophic failure.

In the case where false positives occur as a result of new oil chemistry associated with additive manufacturing and base oil refining, the interferences that cause these false positives often burn off during service. Hence a new reference oil or an oil placed into service a short period of time may test positive for glycol, then later test negative.

When a false positive due to oil chemistry occurs in labs that report the result of a glycol test (Schiff’s reagent, FTIR and GC) they are typically bound to place a positive indication on the report. However, based on their review of other indicators (including coolant additive elements) as previously discussed, the analyst commenting on the oil analysis data should emphasize that the positive glycol result is not a cause for concern.

Some labs use the approach of reporting coolant or antifreeze contamination instead of glycol to eliminate this potential cause for unwarranted concern. The same principle holds true in the case of a negative glycol test where its presence is disguised by the fact that it has converted to by-products.

Looking at other indicators such as sodium and potassium, the analyst should report a positive for coolant contamination despite the fact that no actual glycol was detected. In such instances, the lab analyst is making a contamination entry determination based on review of multiple factors.

In general, glycol above 200 ppm in most cases is considered reportable. Levels greater than 400 ppm should be regarded as significant and levels as high as 1,000 ppm flagged as critical.

Ok I’m confused. I’m a simple man. A test on paper says there’s evidence of water in the oil. It can’t be seen. There’s thought of replacement, engine or vehicle. Even though it runs good. Now it passes the leak test. Being OCD leaning myself. Those test would wear me out with worry. I believe the amount and frequency of oil changes probably covers the engine’s weaknesses. I’d probably be weary of having a 200K plus mileage vehicle as a front line vehicle anyway. Unless it was a Honda or Toyota. It’s time to put it on the back burner, light duty. There’s nowhere my wife drives that I can’t reach her in 10 minutes. The only reason I’m ok with her driving a 10 plus year old vehicle. Or a higher mileage vehicle. Get the better half a new car, you cheap old

Grumpy Bear · July 17, 2023

57 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Ok I’m confused. I’m a simple man. A test on paper says there’s evidence of water in the oil. It can’t be seen. There’s thought of replacement, engine or vehicle. Even though it runs good. Now it passes the leak test. Being OCD leaning myself. Those test would wear me out with worry. I believe the amount and frequency of oil changes probably covers the engine’s weaknesses. I’d probably be weary of having a 200K plus mileage vehicle as a front line vehicle anyway. Unless it was a Honda or Toyota. It’s time to put it on the back burner, light duty. There’s nowhere my wife drives that I can’t reach her in 10 minutes. The only reason I’m ok with her driving a 10 plus year old vehicle. Or a higher mileage vehicle. Get the better half a new car, you cheap old

Wife tells me I don't need to verbalize every thought in my head. She may be right. It stresses others more than me.

Like I tell Jason when we start a thing like this, what we do depends on what we find. I tend to think best writing. Organized my thoughts and helps me see all the paths a thing can take. Just part of my process. I suppose it isn't for everyone. I really don't stress on it much. Angry sometimes if it is something I didn't see and should have or something that happens to it by fault of the dealer. A terminal motor diagnosis isn't like a human/pet cancer diagnosis. Bury it and move on.

Mrs. Bear no longer takes long work trips in the vehicle. 100 miles one way for business. As far as I care to for pleasure. For her however anything past the hundred mark is a rental for work or her Verano for vacation, visits to the family. Only 15K on that one. Me, I'll drive this pig near anywhere. I have four serviceable enclosed vehicles on the property all paid for. One dying on the road is a bad night's sleep in a motel.

I grew up with depression era parents. It rubbed off on me. I don't toss a thing because it MAY leave me stranded. I've had that happen to me with new cars. It's annoying inconvenient and uncomfortable but it is rarely dangerous and almost never so if you keep your wits about you and don't drive it somewhere being stranded is deadly.

Cut my teeth on Brit bikes and watching dad tinker his Harley. Things are infinitely rebuildable to like new condition. Most mechanical things are. Yea, there's an end point but it is much-MUCH further away than the commercial world has tried to trained us to believe and it's based more on total destruction of some primary component. Like a frame mangled in an accident where I lose the serial number. See, there I go again. Rabbit hole. :crackup:

KARNUT · July 17, 2023

20 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Wife tells me I don't need to verbalize every thought in my head. She may be right. It stresses others more than me.

Like I tell Jason when we start a thing like this, what we do depends on what we find. I tend to think best writing. Organized my thoughts and helps me see all the paths a thing can take. Just part of my process. I suppose it isn't for everyone. I really don't stress on it much. Angry sometimes if it is something I didn't see and should have or something that happens to it by fault of the dealer. A terminal motor diagnosis isn't like a human/pet cancer diagnosis. Bury it and move on.

Mrs. Bear no longer takes long work trips in the vehicle. 100 miles one way for business. As far as I care to for pleasure. For her however anything past the hundred mark is a rental for work or her Verano for vacation, visits to the family. Only 15K on that one. Me, I'll drive this pig near anywhere. I have four serviceable enclosed vehicles on the property all paid for. One dying on the road is a bad night's sleep in a motel.

I grew up with depression era parents. It rubbed off on me. I don't toss a thing because it MAY leave me stranded. I've had that happen to me with new cars. It's annoying inconvenient and uncomfortable but it is rarely dangerous and almost never so if you keep your wits about you and don't drive it somewhere being stranded is deadly.

Cut my teeth on Brit bikes and watching dad tinker his Harley. Things are infinitely rebuildable to like new condition. Most mechanical things are. Yea, there's an end point but it is much-MUCH further away than the commercial world has tried to trained us to believe and it's based more on total destruction of some primary component. Like a frame mangled in an accident where I lose the serial number. See, there I go again. Rabbit hole.

Most of my travels are usually in extreme heat. I have a low tolerance for breaking down. You’re right a well maintained older vehicle will do as well as new. I wouldn’t have a problem driving my avalanche cross country. Honestly 200K miles probably would be my limit with most vehicles.

Grumpy Bear · July 20, 2023

Maintenance Notes

7/19/2023

So, Jason called minutes ago. The original pressure test was for an hour at 15 psig. The rating of the system and....perfect.

Then he dropped a dye pack in the system and drove it for a couple hours. Pulled an oil sample and....zip. Perfect.

Not being one to leave a stone unturned he redoes the pressure check. This time at 17 pounds and for six hours. Perfect.

So....whatever the lab is finding, it isn't from the cooling system. Done, done and dun.

Tomorrow night the camber kits go it and these wheels get stood up.

We are planning the timing chest overhaul. Chain, gears, guides and tensioner. Water pump drive chain and gears, Water pump. Transfer pipe gaskets/O rings. Thermostat. Cover seal. Belt and tensioner. Will be using a non OEM pump to get a steel impeller.

Grumpy Bear · July 26, 2023

This is taking longer than I had hoped. Saturday is alignment day. If the tires are quiet, I get it back then. If noisy then the tires will be flipped on the rims, and I'll get it back Sunday after lunch.

Grumpy Bear · August 1, 2023

Just got off the phone. After the rear camber kits it was STILL 3 degrees shy of minimum negative spec.

Upper control arms are coming out and going on the Bridgeport to lengthen the slots. This will get right.

-6 camber is not okay with me.

Grumpy Bear · August 31, 2023

219,919 Miles

8/30/2023

Finally have her home. Headlamp out. :mad: 800 more unaccounted miles on it. :banghead: Time will tell. Not happy. Think she spent six weeks as the shop truck. Can't see crap in the dark. More later.

KARNUT · August 31, 2023

8 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

219,919 Miles

8/30/2023

Finally have her home. Headlamp out. 800 more unaccounted miles on it. Time will tell. Not happy. Think she spent six weeks as the shop truck. Can't see crap in the dark. More later.

I was wondering what happened. So much as a trusted garage. 800 miles, someone has explaining to do.

Grumpy Bear · August 31, 2023

220,000 Mile Services

8/31/2023

1,250-mile OCI

2 ounces perhaps observable usage by the stick.

3.75-quarts Shell Rotella T6 5W40

1-quart High Performance Lubricants SAE40-EC

No filter this time. Only 1,250 miles on the last one.

Moving on to 2K OCI.

1239 miles on 43.4 gallons of fuel = 28.55 mpg.

Oil usage on fuel then .0357% of fuel and quite 'normal' by engineering standards.

$251.00 spent on remanufacturing the upper rear control arm (lengthen by slotting), alignment and flipping the tires on the rims balance and rotate. Plus, the coolant leak check. Finally, as a third check, sent a sample off the CUMMINS. Zero glycol detected.

Drives nice. Runs quiet. Runs true. Tires stand up

The demister I made for the PCV system seems to have worked very well. Dry overhead line, damp orifice plate.

17 hours ago, KARNUT said:

I was wondering what happened. So much as a trusted garage. 800 miles, someone has explaining to do.

I'm going to let that dog sleep. I'll just patch the 652-mile hole in the fuel log with the average. I don't actually mind him using it. He's a friend. I am concerned why he wouldn't tell me the truth on a direct ask. That's a different discussion. Not one losing a friend over. Nothing was hurt. Just miles and he paid for the gas. A few tanks so...... Just irked me when it happened. It's kind of like my son drinking my last beer and not refilling the fridge. LOL.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

garagerog · September 2, 2023

Marty, you have my deepest admiration for your what I shall call your stick-to-itness on your wife's Terrain. You've racked up far more miles on that 2.4 than but a handful of owners that I've seen. I too once was of the mindset of not letting anything beat me, but for better or worse age and arthritis have beat that out of me. My last DIY oil change was in Nov. of 2021 and that cost me 2 to 3 days of misery. My wife has been talking for some time about getting her "forever" ICE powered car. I grew up with V-8 and to some extent I-6 power and besides the known issues the 2.4 in my wife's Equinox will eventually develop it's a pooch power wise, the 1.5T that replaced the 2.4 is a pooch too. The writing is on the wall, thimble sized motors over boosted to get their vehicles down the road. For 2024 the Traverse and Acadia lose the 3.6 V6 replaced by a 2.5T, the 3.6 V6 is now only available in certain trims of the Chev Blazer and Buick Enclave for 2024 and I have a sneaking hunch this might be the last year for the 3.6 in those too. With the turbos I've seen intercooler issues, charge pipe blowoffs, and in some cases oil usage. I'm just not convinced of the long term reliability of GDI 3 or 4 banger turbos. The wife's 17 Nox only has 44k trouble free miles and probably has about 35k miles left before I would be worrying about clogged PCV or timing chain issues. I mentioned earlier that my wife was itching to get her "forever" ICE car so with all of the above in mind we placed an order

last month for a 2024 Blazer 3LT with the 3.6 Ordered it with the trailering package only to get the heavy duty cooling, another reason I don't want a turbo is I don't want all that intercooler heat dissipating anywhere near the a/c condenser, in our hot and humid climate meat locker a/c is a must. The 3.6 V-6 has been around for quite a few years and is very reliable, but I'm afraid it's going away just like the 4.3 in your beloved Pepper, just food for thought, and if you haven't caught my drift yet, let's just say I love helping other people spend their money .

Edited September 2, 2023 by garagerog

Grumpy Bear · September 4, 2023

On 9/2/2023 at 11:15 AM, garagerog said:

I love helping other people spend their money .

I appreciate that, Roger.

No idea what is next. But I do know it's not now. And it likely will not be GM when it is. It may be my Buick 3800 will take me to the end. I'd like that.

Right now, Dizzy is running the best it ever has. Wierd, right?