Sugar Bears 2015 GMC Terrain SLE-2 2.4 AWD

[garagerog]

Marty, not weird at all, you have Dizzy skeered that if she doesn't start behaving she'll eventually meet the crusher, lol. Funny how easy it is for some of us to assign human like attributes to machines. GM's 3800 is truly a gem, one of GM's great push-rod engines. Had one in a 2004 Bonneville SLE that we had, ran it to 165K miles before getting the wife's 17 Nox. I did have to have the lower intake gaskets replaced, but GM had that corrected by the time the Series III 3800 came out I believe. I had a shop do that, but I did the install of the Transgo shift kit on the 4T65-E to cure the harsh shifting when the trans solenoids went south. Worked like a charm. I have no doubt the powertrain would have gone to 300k+ but the Bonneville was getting long in the tooth with drooping headliner, a/c and power window issues plus we were looking at easier ingress/egress at our age with a CUV as opposed to a sedan. Got a great deal on the 17 Nox when we purchased it so with the trade it we're getting on it purchasing the 2024 Blazer it'll cost us in the neighborhood of $4500 depreciation for 6+ years and 44k miles of ownership on the Nox.  I mentioned in an earlier post my aversion to turbos, but there is one that intrigues me. Mazda is coming out with a 3.3 liter INLINE 6 turbo motor. Judging by my daughters experience, Mazda must make very reliable automobiles as she drove one to 160k without breaking it, she has managed to destroy the engines on a Chevy Cobalt and 2 Subarus at around the 100k mark, yes despite my constant reminders, she is one of those people where vehicle maintenance is at the very bottom of the priority list, having teenagers I guess I can understand that.    

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Our 3800 is a Series III. My brother-in-law ran a Bonnie well north of 400K. Still looked good when they sold it and moved to Europe. Dad did all his maintenance. 

 

Inline 6's are silky smooth. I expect Mazda will build an excellent one. 200 cubic inches is sort of a sweet spot for them. If it's half as good as Ford's late 7 bearing 3.3 I6 was durability wise I'd give that a look. 

 

In the meantime, we have been looking for a 60's to early 70's Ford with the 200 I-6 3 speed stick OR C4 Auto. Just watching the market currently. Falcon, Mustang, Fairlane, Comet, Fairmont. Small but tall, light and bare bones. Easy to work on and easy to get parts for. Big Bell 200 will fit any of them. 

 

 

  

[KARNUT]

1 hour ago, garagerog said:

Marty, not weird at all, you have Dizzy skeered that if she doesn't start behaving she'll eventually meet the crusher, lol. Funny how easy it is for some of us to assign human like attributes to machines. GM's 3800 is truly a gem, one of GM's great push-rod engines. Had one in a 2004 Bonneville SLE that we had, ran it to 165K miles before getting the wife's 17 Nox. I did have to have the lower intake gaskets replaced, but GM had that corrected by the time the Series III 3800 came out I believe. I had a shop do that, but I did the install of the Transgo shift kit on the 4T65-E to cure the harsh shifting when the trans solenoids went south. Worked like a charm. I have no doubt the powertrain would have gone to 300k+ but the Bonneville was getting long in the tooth with drooping headliner, a/c and power window issues plus we were looking at easier ingress/egress at our age with a CUV as opposed to a sedan. Got a great deal on the 17 Nox when we purchased it so with the trade it we're getting on it purchasing the 2024 Blazer it'll cost us in the neighborhood of $4500 depreciation for 6+ years and 44k miles of ownership on the Nox.  I mentioned in an earlier post my aversion to turbos, but there is one that intrigues me. Mazda is coming out with a 3.3 liter INLINE 6 turbo motor. Judging by my daughters experience, Mazda must make very reliable automobiles as she drove one to 160k without breaking it, she has managed to destroy the engines on a Chevy Cobalt and 2 Subarus at around the 100k mark, yes despite my constant reminders, she is one of those people where vehicle maintenance is at the very bottom of the priority list, having teenagers I guess I can understand that.    

 

I’ve had 4 Mazdas two rotary's. Two 3s. Both were 2010s. One new. The last one was bought used just before COVID for my granddaughter. It was clean with 180k miles. The idea was a filler car so she could save for a new car. We paid 500$ for it. She loves it and has been problem free with well over 200k miles. No more talk about a new one.

[Grumpy Bear]

220,660 Mile Notes

 

9/4/2023

 

First tank upon return was burned before it started. Shop idle time hours. But I could tell from the last half of it something was different. It rolls easy and further on coast down and this tank, one of 473 miles gave up a combine average of city AND highway of 31.08 mpg. Oh yea, it's done that number before. Even better at 45 mph on county roads. Just not combination tanks. Not this easy. 

 

Straight shooter too. Hands off the wheel for a mile driftless. 

 

On todays trek!

 

This is an actual Illinois ungraded state-maintained road. One lane and grass. Only a half mile long. Goes to the Weston Cemetary Natural Grasslands. Dead ends in a small grass parking lot. Has a name. Weston Cemetary Road. Just off US-24 near Fairbury Illinois. How many roads ya know that get mowed?

 

Less than 4% of the USA's original grasslands survive today and still losing ground to the tune of a million square miles a year. 

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

221,377 Miles

 

9/7/2023

 

Atlanta Illinois is the halfway point along US-66 between Chicago and St. Louis. It also happens to be the halfway point from our home to St. Louis although we are about 75 miles west of Chicago. It also happened to be our destination today. Mrs. Bear is on vacation. 

 

Old US-66 is the main drag. Pretty 56.

 

 

With 13 miles on the tank from the previous night's fill up we ended with 371 miles using 11.487 gallons of fuel for a net result of 32.3 mpg. Most of it Interstate at 60 mph. That is a first and a record for that speed. That alignment really woke her up.  

 

Ate a packed lunch in the park in the first photo and a walk about town. Coal mine, Octagon Library. 1908 Seth Thomas clock tower. Old wooded grain elevator. Muffler man museum. Those giant fiberglass men like Paul Bunyan. 

 

These towns struggle to stay alive. Such a piece of history.  

[Grumpy Bear]

222,000 Mile Service

 

9/10/2023

 

Oil Change

2,000-mile OCI actual. 

2 ounce makeup. Actually, it didn't move on the stick, but I'll call it an ounce to prevent charting infinity. 

 

3.75-quarts Shell Rotella T6 5W40

1-quart HPL SAE40-EC

1 Purolator PL15436 filter

 

The FRAM TG9018 came apart. Hat releasing from the media. 3,250 miles. Adhesive failure would be my guess. 

Oil was dark but not black. Still slick with good body. Not scientific but shade tree tip of the hat. Smells awful; like the oil in most of these gas fired popcorn poppers. Never really noticed until Pepper got on alcohol. She set a high bar. 

 

1,921 miles on 64.112 gallons of E-10 87 RU = 29.96 mpg for this interval. Long haul tanks were stellar. 31/32 mpg. Around town dampened the average. Cooler windier fall weather will start to have an impact. I can already see it. 

 

Oil consumption based on fuel is back to better than the NORMAL Engineering Standards of 0.03-0.05% of fuel. This last tank the best of the last two in range or better at 0.0117% of fuel.  Last was also in spec and the two before just missed. 

 

 

 

Given her age I don't see the OCI getting any longer than 2K so the current mix of Shell Rotella T6 and HPL-EC will be her tonic for as long as I have a supply. 

 

 

 

On todays Trek. 

 

This Locust Road in southern De Kalb County.

 Wife thought I was driving up someone's driveway. 

Glad we didn't meet anyone. Nowhere to turn around nor room to slide by.

No need to mow this one 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Recapitulation 

 

So how did we get here? In fits and starts! With how much help from GM? Not a bit. Why such a convoluted path? Ignorance on my part and a bus load of bad advice accepted due to my ignorance. Check that. Due to my willingness to set my experience aside and accept someone else's. Yea, more to the point. I flat failed to trust my training. 

 

Enough of that. Did I learn something useful. Oh yea! Okay, besides trust your training. 

 

Could I do this twice quicker. YES. About a 100K miles quicker. 

 

1.) GDI is an efficiency gift poorly executed. It WILL leak into the crankcase at some point. If your UAO is showing more than 2.5% fuel by GC AND your long- and short-term fuel trims are in range, change the HPFP. End of story. It isn't your plugs. It isn't 'partially failed" coils. It isn't boots or resistor or wires or your air cleaner and it isn't your EVAP system provided it passes the smoke test. The pump piston seal is leaking even if it doesn't show on a pressure check as such. Trust the instruments and your training. If your tribologist is telling you other, ignore him/her and fix the root cause. 

 

2.) If you have GDI then do UOA's every once in a while, to check fuels AND viscosity. You can't smell it and by the time you see it, damage is done. 

 

3.) Use a polar oil. It will not mitigate viscosity break, but it will solve out the varnish and give you a much better chance of not sticking the rings. Yea, this means you toss GM"s warranty out the window. Don't let the same thief steal from you twice. 

 

4.) Vis up. Forget the idea there is some special finish or treatment that will let you run *W20 or *W16 in a motor long term without eventual damage. Especially if the GDI HPFP leaks and it will leak. 5w30, 5W40 or even 5W50 will hurt nothing but your milage and that not by much but will keep part from touching parts when a pump fails. Provided it isn't running out the breathers from a fuel flood. Give me a break. 

 

5.) Kreen will NOT irrepealably damage your motor to get your rings free BUT it isn't the entire solution either. Just a great start. 

 

6.) High Performance Lubricants SAE30 or 40 EC mixed 4 or 5 to 1 WILL clean and free rings over a long enough period of time, if the problem is solved and IF used in an oil with enough dispersancy and short enough OCI's. Diesel oils qualify. This took nearly 30K miles and actually went backward for about 4 or 5 OCI's before moving in the right direction. 

 

7.) Patients is key. See point six above. 

 

8.) Short, and I mean really short OCI's, are a good defense for vis break from a leaky HPFP. 

 

9.) A new pump may show 0.5% or even nil fuel by GC. Give it ten thousand miles. 1.5-2.5% is not unusual and it can stay there for hundreds of thousands. If you change that pump every time it goes to 2% you will need a second job. 

 

10.) IF your trims are wacked and your marginal on fuel by GC it may be an injector and not the pump. Maybe. 

 

11.) No oil currently on sale will unstick rings. Polar oils will prevent them from sticking IF you fix the problem. 

 

12.) Oils with an oxidation value of over 30 have some esters or AN's and considered polar. Oils near 100 oxidation, have enough to keep the ship upright. 

 

13.) HPL SAE 30 or 40 EC can be used 5:1 with a non-polar oil to the same effect and be used continuously. My Shell/HPL blend sent back 60 on the oxidation. Cost a fraction of HPL or RLHP. 

 

14.) Red Line HP oils I've had tested run between 80 and 125 oxidation VOA. I've never test HPL oils but know AN's and esters are part of the package even in their cheaper lines. 

 

15.) It isn't something I think. It's something I've done. You witnessed here, the good the bad and the ugly. I did not cover my mistakes so you could learn from them. I'm not that vain. 

 

We have a local lawyer that advertises 2-2-2-22-22. Grabbed this to the tenth to get 7 digits. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[KARNUT]

7 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Recapitulation 

 

So how did we get here? In fits and starts! With how much help from GM? Not a bit. Why such a convoluted path? Ignorance on my part and a bus load of bad advice accepted due to my ignorance. Check that. Due to my willingness to set my experience aside and accept someone else's. Yea, more to the point. I flat failed to trust my training. 

 

Enough of that. Did I learn something useful. Oh yea! Okay, besides trust your training. 

 

Could I do this twice quicker. YES. About a 100K miles quicker. 

 

1.) GDI is an efficiency gift poorly executed. It WILL leak into the crankcase at some point. If your UAO is showing more than 2.5% fuel by GC AND your long- and short-term fuel trims are in range, change the HPFP. End of story. It isn't your plugs. It isn't 'partially failed" coils. It isn't boots or resistor or wires or your air cleaner and it isn't your EVAP system provided it passes the smoke test. The pump piston seal is leaking even if it doesn't show on a pressure check as such. Trust the instruments and your training. If your tribologist is telling you other, ignore him/her and fix the root cause. 

 

2.) If you have GDI then do UOA's every once in a while, to check fuels AND viscosity. You can't smell it and by the time you see it, damage is done. 

 

3.) Use a polar oil. It will not mitigate viscosity break, but it will solve out the varnish and give you a much better chance of not sticking the rings. Yea, this means you toss GM"s warranty out the window. Don't let the same thief steal from you twice. 

 

4.) Vis up. Forget the idea there is some special finish or treatment that will let you run *W20 or *W16 in a motor long term without eventual damage. Especially if the GDI HPFP leaks and it will leak. 5w30, 5W40 or even 5W50 will hurt nothing but your milage and that not by much but will keep part from touching parts when a pump fails. Provided it isn't running out the breathers from a fuel flood. Give me a break. 

 

5.) Kreen will NOT irrepealably damage your motor to get your rings free BUT it isn't the entire solution either. Just a great start. 

 

6.) High Performance Lubricants SAE30 or 40 EC mixed 4 or 5 to 1 WILL clean and free rings over a long enough period of time, if the problem is solved and IF used in an oil with enough dispersancy and short enough OCI's. Diesel oils qualify. This took nearly 30K miles and actually went backward for about 4 or 5 OCI's before moving in the right direction. 

 

7.) Patients is key. See point six above. 

 

8.) Short, and I mean really short OCI's, are a good defense for vis break from a leaky HPFP. 

 

9.) A new pump may show 0.5% or even nil fuel by GC. Give it ten thousand miles. 1.5-2.5% is not unusual and it can stay there for hundreds of thousands. If you change that pump every time it goes to 2% you will need a second job. 

 

10.) IF your trims are wacked and your marginal on fuel by GC it may be an injector and not the pump. Maybe. 

 

11.) No oil currently on sale will unstick rings. Polar oils will prevent them from sticking IF you fix the problem. 

 

12.) Oils with an oxidation value of over 30 have some esters or AN's and considered polar. Oils near 100 oxidation, have enough to keep the ship upright. 

 

13.) HPL SAE 30 or 40 EC can be used 5:1 with a non-polar oil to the same effect and be used continuously. My Shell/HPL blend sent back 60 on the oxidation. Cost a fraction of HPL or RLHP. 

 

14.) Red Line HP oils I've had tested run between 80 and 125 oxidation VOA. I've never test HPL oils but know AN's and esters are part of the package even in their cheaper lines. 

 

15.) It isn't something I think. It's something I've done. You witnessed here, the good the bad and the ugly. I did not cover my mistakes so you could learn from them. I'm not that vain. 

 

We have a local lawyer that advertises 2-2-2-22-22. Grabbed this to the tenth to get 7 digits. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If memory serves. You went about 100K miles before the problem became known. If you shortened the OCI from the beginning and used a cleaner periodically would that have gotten you to here? 

Edited September 14, 2023 by KARNUT

[Grumpy Bear]

3 hours ago, KARNUT said:

If memory serves. You went about 100K miles before the problem became known. If you shortened the OCI from the beginning and used a cleaner periodically would that have gotten you to here? 

 

Recapitulation II

 

I had a reply partial typed before the question actually sank in. More coffee please .

 

If I understand correctly the ask is AFTER the failure was properly diagnosed and repaired, would a shorter OCI and cleaner have freed the rings and stopped the oil consumption? We have the help of 20/20 hindsight to give us a definitive answer.  No. 

 

Both before and after 'fixing' the HPFP problem, we tried multiple cleaners and shorter OCI's. TRIAX, BG ERP, Wynns, GM top soak and Kreen. OCI's ran 1 to 2.5K. Only the GM top soak and the KREEN actually freed the rings and yet, only to stick again. BP and Wynns cleared out the sludge to some degree. TRIAX did nothing but prevent damage while they were still stuck. Useful for that but just as ineffective as any high detergent package at CLEANING. More like Scotch Guard than GOOP.  Heck of an antiwear add though if you can suffer the ash. 

 

Let's recap the process streamlined. 

 

1.) HPFP starts leaking into the crankcase UNDETECTED. When? Who knows, it was undetected. 

2.) Fuel in oil attracts water, water and carboxylic acid from blow by make sludge out of oil.

3.) Sludge and carbon reduced from sludge plugged the non-serviceable CCV vent hole. 

4.) Plugged, or severely restricted vent increased water and fuel thus it's byproducts. 

The main seals never let go so there is question if the vent was solidly plugged is what I'm driving at. 

5.) Fuels in oil precipitate varnish and the rings packed with carbon, the byproduct of baked sludge in this case cement the rings in their grooves blocking drain back and filling the damn of the Napier style second ring rendering it ineffective.

6.) Stuck rings further aggravate the issue by increase blowby and water. The dog is chasing its own tail and doing a flat spin to destruction. 

 

At point 4 about we had an early indicator before the rings stuck. White foam in the oil cap and ice crystals on the dipstick. We did not know, however the HPFP was leaking. Even at 5% you can't smell it. This prompted a mechanical cleaning of the manifold vent and valve cover. However, with fuel still getting in the vent soon plugged again. We had added a vented cap to prevent main seal failure which paid. But fail it did and this time with a bang. Couldn't keep oil in her. At this point we did our first smart move. We did a UOA and now knew what the issue was, fuel in the oil, but failed miserably at defining the 'root cause', the pump. I ran that down in the last post. Maybe I should have started with this one.  

 

Point is everything tired on advice failed to pinpoint the issue, although my gut knew. In self-defense I redesigned the CCV into a PCV system on the next expensive mechanical cleaning. That gave some breathing room, and we needed it. Once we ran the rabbit down the hole to the bottom the only thing left was the pump and BINGO. Who knew? Right? Well, I did and ignored my training. 

 

I'm still perfecting my craft, so once again failed to take advantage of the lesson she just taught me. I learn everything the hard way.  However I did learn some things along the way. Like non-polar oils can't solve out anything. Detergent doesn't indicate cleaner. And not all solvents are alike. Something I already knew for my days in Research. 

 

Point is, I should have started with a KREEN Purge and then the HPL/Shell Diesel brew. BG, say, and a dry oil would NEVER dissolve the carbon. It would have been an oil eater for the rest of her life which would have been short. 

 

The RIGHT esters will solve out these carbon/varnish mixtures. Polyols are NOT that ester so Red Line  and AN's at that point would be ineffective. HPL-EC does have the right esters BUT when you toss that much particulate matter into an oil the dispersant package gets run over like a five-year-old playing in freeway traffic. Not just a robust package but the RIGHT package. Mg is that package and it finds its way into some diesel oils in large quantities to work on diesel soot issues. Even so the OCI will be low in systems with low oil volumes like gasoline motors. We are working with quarts here, not 15 to 20 gallons. 

 

Dizzy will never get past 2K OCI's. She's likely closer to a 30% leak down rate than a 3%. Damage was done. It smells awful at 2K and getting inky. But oil control is in the new like area even with more than normal blowby and lubricity is still great.

 

Every bit of this is after the fact and the fact is without some UOA checks for fuel at minimum STUFF is going to happen as long as they put HPFP's in the cam area giving access to the crankcase.  

 

Here is what i do think would mitigate damage. Use a polar oil in these motors and change is more often. Even under stress they drastically slow the rate of deposit. OCI short enough would even prevent it. I've shown the inside of Peppers motor on a polar diet at 5K. And up the viscosity a grade. WHEN it leaks you have room for vis break down.

 

1.) Do UOA's often enough, Once every 20-25K? 

2.) Vis up

3.) Be polar.

 

Or roll the dice.... House doesn't win them all.  

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

 

The cleaning cycle 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Anything inside the two yellow lines would be "Engineering Normal" consumption. 

 

This OCI continues to show some improvement in feel, color and odor. That speaks to ring seal. 

If this holds to 230K I just might extend the OCI to 2.5K. 

Five running tanks over 30 mpg if a very tight cluster. As fuel cost has increase so has Dizzy's economy. To the point it is holding in terms of cents per mile at roughly 12 cpm. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Grumpy Bear
New Graph

[Grumpy Bear]

Not a brag, a fact.

 

2015 GMC Terrain AWD 4 cyl, 2.4 L, Automatic 6-spd Regular Gasoline

 

 

Combined MPG: 23 combined city/highway MPG

 

City MPG:20

 

Highway MPG:28

 

 

Winter, summer, spring and fall. Highway and city. 28 mpg combine over the last 83K miles. 25.5 to 30.8 mpg as the first sigma.

 

Another one that is beating the EPA numbers by 5 mpg.  

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

224,000 Mile Service

 

9/22/2023

 

Oil Change

2,000-mile OCI actual. 

2 ounce makeup. (minimum I record)

0.0238% oil consumption on fuel consumed at 30.25 mpg for this OCI.

 

1 gallon Shell Rotella T6 5W40

1-quart HPL SAE40-EC

1 Purolator PL15436 filter

 

This filter stayed together and did not collapse and come apart like the FRAM TG9018 did. 

 

Note: I've been tracking short and long fuel trims and have noted that they move from neutral as the injectors soot up. Adding a bottle of Techron or Red Line S1 brings them right back. Seems about every other oil change is about right for this treatment.

 

As winter arrives and fuel economy declines the consumption as a percentage of fuel will improve if consumption absolute remains the same.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

226,000 Mile Service

 

10/17/2023

 

2,000 OCI on 3 ounces of makeup oil. 

Colder weather increased fuel consumed over the OCI and trip lengths are shorter. So, more oil used. Slight increase in consumption as a percentage of fuel. I'll keep an eye on. Oil feel and odor continue to improve. (poor mans UOA). 

 

1 gallon of Shell Rotella T6 5W40

1 quart of High-Performance Lubricants SAE40-EC

No filter changes this time. Only 2 K miles on it.

 

1,972 miles on 71.887 gallons of fuel for a 27.43 mpg result. 0.124 cents per mile. It's creeping up as milage declines on colder weather, shorter trip lengths, seasonal fuel change and higher fuel cost. 

 

Oil consumption as a percentage of fuel 0.0321%. 

 

Seasonal tire pressure adjustments are ongoing. Check and fill all fluids. Safety checks. 

 

Fluid Film underside.

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Grumpy Bear
additional content

[Grumpy Bear]

228,000 Mile Service

 

11/4/2023

 

Oil Change

2,001-mile OCI actual. 

3 ounces of makeup. 

0.0307% oil consumption on fuel consumed at 26.24 mpg for this OCI.

 

1 gallon Shell Rotella T6 5W40

1-quart HPL SAE40-EC

1 Purolator PL15436 filter

 

Winter tire pressure adjustments. Wiper fluid swap to -35 Purple Power. 

 

Normal late fall to early spring losses of fuel economy. Colder weather. More town than country and winter fuel change plus shift to E-15. I'm not unhappy with the result. Fuel trims are holding near zero. Oil is less 'inky'. Could use a new air filter. On the list.  

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Grumpy Bear
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