Failed Lifters

[swathdiver]

Does anyone know the answer to this question?  What is the AFM/DOD failure rate with engines using the improved Delphi II lifters?

[Jsdirt]

All I know is, I have yet to see an LMG (which is what my truck has) make it over 130k without a major valve train failure.

 

I'm at 91.5K, and oil pressure has been trending downward. Just a matter of time ...

Edited January 14, 2018 by Jsdirt

[Grumpy Bear]

23 hours ago, Jsdirt said:

2014 is barely out of warranty - they'll start showing up in the next year or 2. Just like with my '07, the news didn't start rolling out until about 2010-2011. By then it was an avalanche.

So we haven't any valid point of reference for the Ecotech3 motors nor, an more importantly, do we have a valid reference for the LS series. That would have been the failures per hundred units sold. This leaves "they will fail' on some pretty shaky ground. Can't even say 'likely to fail'. What can be said is "some failed". Some light bulbs fail. Maybe we should go back to kerosene lamps. 

23 hours ago, Jsdirt said:

 

I have already seen posts on failed direct injection injectors on '14 up - GM designed these in such a way that you have to replace the ENTIRE fuel rail on top of the engine whenever it is removed in any way. Real nice. Seen a post already on a '18 already having this issue. The '18's have some goofy box in front of the intake manifold that will leave you pulling your hair out, until you realize you have to remove the entire intake manifold to access the bolts! Another epic brainstorm ... but I digress.

What has this to do with AFM failures? Nothing. Nice deflection however. Actually it weaken the lifter arguments believability. A second unrelated issue does not add credit to the first.   

23 hours ago, Jsdirt said:

Have yet to hear of an AFM repair coming back (unless it was completely botched by a rookie). I do know in the hotrod world, when you buy an engine from a place that does nothing else but build engines, they typically last forever, even with some heavy foot /  high RPM abuse. Same can be said of anything built outside of OE, depending on the company or shop. Bottom line is, if you do the best job you can, it'll be 100x better than OE.

And there we have it. So...it isn't a design issue? It isn't even and oil related issue? It's an assembly issue? Yea, I don't believe in elfin magic. This paragraph gives the credit to the repairman. 

 

Said more believable would have been; the replacement parts were made of a better material, to a tighter measurement spec or to a higher degree of accuracy in heat treating OR some batches of OEM factory installed parts fell threw the cracks. If that would have been the case then there wouldn't have been a redesign of the system which brings it full circle. It was, in fact, a design issue and it was addressed. Rocker covers, breathers and a redirect of the bleed oil system. 

 

All in all, about what I figured. 

[Jsdirt]

Grumpy Bear, I thought you were smarter than this. I can't believe you'd defend a company that within the last 11 years or so has charted a course to rip off their customers at every possible turn. Not just their customers, but their TECHNICIANS too! 

 

How can anyone possibly get the data you ask about without being employed by GM, or work for every single private garage in  North America??? There is NO WAY to compile that data! 

 

Common sense dictates that when you start seeing post, after post, after post of FAILURES on general internet forums, AND PROFESSIONAL AUTOMOTIVE TECHNICIAN FORUMS,  that there just might be an issue, don't you think??????  

[diyer2]

OK jsdirt, valid point.

My 2 cents.

I don't deny that there is a problem with the lifters.

I do believe that there is owner related habits that affect failure rates.

I think we have to accept the fact that it's a crap shoot if you get a failed lifter.

And we hear about the failed lifters. What about the ones without issues.

GM's no different than any other car manufacturer when it comes to reliability issues IMO. 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by diyer2

[Jsdirt]

I agree, and I'll say it again; THEY'RE ALL JUNK TODAY! Manufacturers are chasing the almighty dollar today, not customer satisfaction -  that's the difference between the 50's-70's, even the 80's & 90's,  and today.

 

Still doesn't make it right.

 

Also like I said before, domestics of ANY brand have ZERO tolerance to lack of maintenance. Couple that with the owner's manuals & the DIC telling people they can go 7,500 miles on cheap crap oil, it's not wonder there's oil related failures happening as well. The DIC doesn't know what anyone is running in the crankcase.

 

I see several posts of sludged up GM 5.3's and other LS engines - I never mentioned that because it wasn't the point I was trying to make. 

 

More reading for everyone's enjoyment: http://www.gidcumb.net/jerrysblog/gm-active-fuel-management-headache/

Edited January 15, 2018 by Jsdirt

[mookdoc6]

24 minutes ago, Jsdirt said:

I agree, and I'll say it again; THEY'RE ALL JUNK TODAY! Manufacturers are chasing the almighty dollar today, not customer satisfaction -  that's the difference between the 50's-70's, even the 80's & 90's,  and today.

 

Still doesn't make it right.

 

Also like I said before, domestics of ANY brand have ZERO tolerance to lack of maintenance. Couple that with the owner's manuals & the DIC telling people they can go 7,500 miles on cheap crap oil, it's not wonder there's oil related failures happening as well. The DIC doesn't know what anyone is running in the crankcase.

 

I see several posts of sludged up GM 5.3's and other LS engines - I never mentioned that because it wasn't the point I was trying to make. 

 

More reading for everyone's enjoyment: http://www.gidcumb.net/jerrysblog/gm-active-fuel-management-headache/

Well I am going on close to 10K on this oil son Heading to 12K.......I know, I know the ecotec3 is JUNK....I know, I know GM built it to bilk money out of me in 80K so I HAVE TO BUY A NEW ONE...I know it's not a matter of IF? But, when the lifters and AFM and Tranny implode on me and the family 180 miles from nearest town.....I know....I know...

 

I will post the 12K mile oil change for you bud!  Hopefully, I make it to that juncture because I am cruising on borrowed time?

Edited January 15, 2018 by mookdoc6

[Jsdirt]

It's your money - you do with it what you wish. That's what makes this country great - we're free to make our own way, no matter how misguided it may be!

 

We're guaranteed equal opportunities - NOT equal outcomes.

[diyer2]

Well mookdoc6 IMO you just keep doing the extended oil changes.

Maybe it will be OK.

 

 

[mookdoc6]

13 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Well mookdoc6 IMO you just keep doing the extended oil changes.

Maybe it will be OK.

 

 

I am boys........No failed lifters on this one for me!  Guy, I work with just traded in 2012 GMC beautiful truck 100K no failed lifters no problems other than being to large and dropped to a midsize.......I will post the 12K oil 2 months probably.....If I make it

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, Jsdirt said:

Grumpy Bear, I thought you were smarter than this. I can't believe you'd defend a company that within the last 11 years or so has charted a course to rip off their customers at every possible turn. Not just their customers, but their TECHNICIANS too! 

 

How can anyone possibly get the data you ask about without being employed by GM, or work for every single private garage in  North America??? There is NO WAY to compile that data! 

 

Common sense dictates that when you start seeing post, after post, after post of FAILURES on general internet forums, AND PROFESSIONAL AUTOMOTIVE TECHNICIAN FORUMS,  that there just might be an issue, don't you think??????  

I am not ignorant of your plight nor of the commercial systems sins, which are many.  I suppose this felt like a personal attack and for that I am truly sorry. It was not meant to be. What is was meant to be was a push toward scientific inquiry and in the end, relief. I believe in stats. I believe in science. I believe in God. In rational application of all the for-stated. Past that I have grave doubts. I rarely trust even my own motives and even less in my own knowledge. 

 

As the professionals you and I are I do understand your frustration. Those with a heartfelt love for this work and the auto in general are sensitive to this REAL commercial villainy and yes we feel a need to vent on that a bit now and again. I get that. I really do.

 

But I also understand that in a forum setting it is the evil and not the good that sings the loudest. Thus the need for a statistical point of reference to prevent distortion and, silly as this may sound, attempt to do what a forum was meant to do. Help people.

 

No one is denying that there is or was or even may continue to be an issue. The evidence is clear enough. It is no longer a question. What we don't know is how often. The gravity of the situation is relevant, is it not?

 

1 in a 1,000 is certainly not the same issue, or crap shoot, as say 700 per 1,000. You can see this, I know you can. Did the GM fixes work? If not each has it's own solution. That later demands I look for a different brand of truck.  The former asks questions such as those I asked earlier. Is it a lubrication issue. A metallurgy issue?  A design issue? The result of some habit of ones own making. Some things I can do myself, some need a fix perhaps I can also do myself. But we need information to do this and guys like you are our best source of that information. Even if you can't get your hands on that data what does an honest appraisal of your experience tell you? When you do a repair what does your postmortem revel? Give us a clue brother and hammer out a solution if one is to be found! Whose parts are viable replacements? Should I use using Crane Lifters if the GM replacements are no better? Has someone outside GM addressed this with success? Have any tips and tricks?

 

You've already shown yourself a talented writer and an able tech. Now share it. Please...use your skills as a guide not a siren.  There is enough unfruitful negative pilling on problems already.  

[Jsdirt]

Sorry if I came across snappy on that last post. The whole state of automotive affairs today just gets me all fired up - didn't mean to take it out on you.

 

Honestly I haven't done enough of these to provide any useful data.  It's Ford country around my shop - I see more of those than anything. Lots of diesels grenading, 1-hour spark plug jobs taking 30 hours or more, since they snapped off in the head, timing chain failures of all kinds, and RUST galore ...

 

I would LOVE to see that data myself. I think we'd all be surprised by what we'd see. I think the problem is much worse than it appears, just from what I've seen posted on the tech forums. I think the reason we don't hear even more about it, is these vehicles are long out of warranty, and on their 2nd, 3rd, or higher owners by then. Trends are easy to spot, and this was one of them. Wish I had the math skills to compile that.

[Grumpy Bear]

No worries. I don't carry grudges. They are to heavy. 

 

I understand. As cheaply as I bought mine it still cost multiples of what my fathers home cost him and still a good portion of what mine cost me. Over the last forty years, by my research, our buying power has shrunk about 40%. Tis the reason both mates in the home work now when one would could manage in my early life. My grandmothers furniture was her mothers and lasted over one hundred years and don't kid yourself; on the day she died it looked new. My kids went through about five bedroom sets a piece. I'm sure they were no rougher on it than my father was on grandma's stuff.  Homes, furniture, cars, trucks....all falling to greed, corruption and apathy. Nobody starved because someone built quality. No business failed for this reason either. 

 

In my grandfathers day if there were two harness masters in town they fella who built the longest lasting put the other out of business. Now they collaborate. Ford and GM and the ten speed for example. Point is, it's changed and if your going to drive you're going to buy someone's crap because it's all crap and more often than not today, made in the same village by the same village idiots. 

 

For us in the trenches it's about managing this sorry but simple fact. It isn't...what is it. It's what to do about it. And what to do about it is educate yourself, mange your expectations and find a course of action you can live with. That is until God fixes it once and for all. If you don't, all you have left is complaining and failed expectations, and while you can find people that will listen...for awhile...it changes nothing but the nature of your relationships. 

 

So let's start with something you do know. When a Pre-Ecotech3 motor comes into your shop for an AFM related failure is it: 

 

1.) Pre or Post the GM fixes of baffling, venting and oil rerouting?

2.) Is it a failure of wear or a failure of tear (as my father would ask of the hole in the knee of my Jeans). 

3.) Is it measurement related?

4.) Metallurgy related?

5.) Lubrication related?

6.) User related?

7.) Something else?

 

If at all how has this changed with the advent of the Ecotec3 motor platforms? What can we hang our hats on that we do know. 

 

 

[Jsdirt]

Just from what I've seen personally, I believe it's metallurgy related & design related. Honestly don't know if they had been repaired prior - didn't see any baffling to suggest dealer repair, and didn't care to investigate further - the customer wanted it done ASAP (like most of them), and I wanted to get it the heck out of here after battling the LS design learning curve. Lets just say, working on that sure made me miss the 350 ... 

 

With today's technology, these companies know EXACTLY how many cycles a lifter can handle before it comes unglued (which used to far exceed the overall engine's life ... but they were also far less complex then) - we all know they always err on the side of cost. Useful life isn't even in their thought process ... unless it could fail under warranty. Could it be designed better? You can count on that, just as death and taxes are as sure as the sun will rise.

 

Every problem today is the result of cost cutting. It would be appreciated if it were for OUR benefit ... but it never is anymore. Quite the opposite, actually!

 

I've long since solved this problem on my own. I made the one mistake 11 years ago of buying my '07. From now on, anything I buy will be built before the 1973 model year - I'll choose and install the parts from there. Fool me once, shame on me. Even if I spend double what a new truck would cost, it will be well worth it to me.

[Grumpy Bear]

Then I gather from the composite of all your post that we are dealing with a fairly low occurrence situation. 'I'm in Ford country' and 'mine (2007 ?) failed' indicate you've repaired two (?) or few (?) Given the unit sales over the LS/Ecotec3 run in your area alone that isn't allot is it?  

 

You state in another post that after a fix it stays fixed and assign it to poor assembly practice.  Thus repair parts are obviously improved in any number of ways which indicates this is not in fact a design issue but a QC issue. Man is incapable of making anything with zero defects. Even NASA blows up a crew now and again. Perfection is God's territory. 

 

"Lifter failure" doesn't say much. We never learn if this is an excessive leakage (plunger) issue. A plunger sticking issue.  A roller or roller bearing/pin failure. A locator failure. Each has it's own root cause. QC failed to control clearances. QC failed to catch heat treat issues. Design failed to engineer effectively although it seems ruled out in the 'stays fixed' statement if there is no visible difference. 

 

At this point I'm going to toss two cents on the table in question form and refrain from making a conclusion. When did GM routinely start using 207 F thermostats with a +/- of 3 F as standard issue? What happens to oil temperature when water temperatures are that hot? What happens to a liquids viscosity when heated? What is the upper temperature spec for SAE viscosity testing? Does the oil temperature exceed the SAE upper limit? If so by what degree? What is the viscosity at that temperature? What happens to boundary layer lubrication at excessive temperatures? What lubrication mode is in play in a plunger lifter? What happens to film strength at elevated temperatures? What prevents even hardened materials from failing in close contact at extreme pressures and loads? What happens to even good oils at elevated temperatures? Does it leave a residue? Will it affect a clearance?  Does it matter if it is stuck collapsed or bleeds collapsed? Why isn't common sense common? Did I hint at multiple failure modes? Is there anything an owner can do about any of this? 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Grumpy Bear