$457 LED Lesson

Homer1952 · May 25, 2019

My 2018 Acadia had the shifter problem back in September 2018. Sometime after that I noticed the rotary mode switch south of the shifter, would never extinguish. And if I left the vehicle parked for a few days, the battery would run down. I put my DC Clamp ammeter on a bundle of wires near the battery & saw almost 0.5A being drawn after the car sat for an hour.

I took it to the GMC dealer in Ann Arbor that I bought the Acadia from & told them what I knew and they spent over 8 hours diagnosing the issue.

They finally decided that it was the Philips LED bulbs I had installed in the Back Up & License illumination.

Now this vehicle has been in production for 2 years & 9 months. And I know from this forum, that I am not the only guy to have done this, but it still took them 8 hours to figure it out even with GM Technical Assistance group.

They replaced the LEDs with the production lamps (which are not listed in the Owner's Manual BTW) and the problem went away.

So who gets to pay for this much too long effort? I did, as I installed a non factory bulb that I could not find listed in the owner's manual or on any GM site.

They gave me a break on the cost (it should have been 8x$130/hr)because I think they were embarrassed over the amount of time it took as well as the idiocy of having the vehicle control module interrogate those particular bulbs while shutting down and then not shut down.

BTW, I got these LED bulbs directly from Philips. I talked to the NA Philips tech assistance guy & he said they are the right replacements & he has never heard of this before.

Just thought you oughta know in case you have or are considering putting LEDs in to replace incandescents.

-Bob

davester · May 25, 2019

Sounds like the bulbs are somehow defective, and the bcm is also screwed up, as with the vehicle & lights turned off, the bulbs shouldn't be getting power at all. It sounds like for whatever reason, the bcm was getting stuck "testing" that the leds were working/present (as you'd notice if they got enough power to stay turned on) and the OEM bulbs pass the test so the bcm stops sending power to them.

tbarn · May 26, 2019

Been there,seen that. Had an '18 Impala with very low mileage that unbeknown to me, the guy had replaced the back up bulbs with led's or something. Later he called the plasma bulbs. Continuous draw. Turns out the BCM monitors the bulb circuits with or with out key on. I too had a lot of time in that one too. No info relating to that concern if service info at all. I kinda get the changing bulbs thing and might suspect it on a truck or Camaro maybe but not on an everyday Impala. The guy swore it was the Onstar module based on his diag. Found the draw on the back up circuit but it made no sense (assuming original incandescent bulbs). When we told him what we found, he apologized and payed the bill (shocked me!). Here's a tip. Don't hide what you have done to your vehicle. It only makes things harder to diag. After all, other than a very few car geeks in the big picture, who changes bulbs on a new vehicle. By the way, GM tech assistance is quite often useless.

Edited May 26, 2019 by tbarn

Homer1952 · May 26, 2019

Yeah, I didn't hide anything. Wouldn't do that.

At the same time, I never suspected the LEDs, so didn't mention it. There are LEDs all over the Acadia as it comes from the factory.

Leds hang next to the incandescents in the auto parts stores.

Amazon & Philips state these bulbs work in my 2018 Acadia. But, as I said, I can not find any comment from GM on what bulbs to use. Nothing in the GM owners manual & nothing online at the GM sites. And no warnings to stick with the incandescents.

Thomcat · July 17, 2019

There's a good reason why Traverses and Acadias use regular bulbs in the directional, backup lamps and license plate lamps.....they are part of the perimeter lighting system. If the resistance in the LED replacement circuit doesn't exactly match that of the stock bulb filament, even though the bulbs turn off the circuit does not go to sleep. I installed LEDs in the fog lamps and they work great, but that is an isolated circuit on an isolated relay, not part of a timed delay circuit, which powers down with ignition off.

Can't put my finger on the specific TSB, but this was issued for some Acadias that accidentally has LEDs installed in the reverse lamps and they were killing batteries.

Homer1952 · July 18, 2019

The BCM's are CMOS devices. So they can stay awake w/o draining the battery. Because they are awake, they can become alive if the S/W commands it & then draw current & drain the battery. The dealer should have known that.

I used the BBB appeal process you can find in back of the Owners Manual & GM is refunding $400.

Do you remember which LEDs you used for the Fog Lamps?

Homer1952 · August 4, 2019

FW/EIW, I looked in the back of my Acadia's OM & found the GM number & the BBB process for dispute claim help. The GM phone number was not helpful at all. The person I talked to seemed clueless. It seems like GM (and many other companies) has contracted these customer services out to a supplier.

So I was considering a small claims court claim, which would cost $30 for a claim under $600 here in Michigan. But I also saw that the OM offered the BBB process. Now I don't have a lot of faith in the BBB given their spotted history, but I thought I'd give it a try. So I filed a claim with them. I found the forms a bit cryptic to use & direct communications with BBB a bit difficult. But it started a dialogue with GM & BBB. After a lot of back & forth, I received a check from GM (not the dealer) for $397 & a letter of apology. I made a mistake on the original post as the cost was $547 (not $457). So I am still out a bit of change, but this represents about 1+ hour of troubleshooting at the dealer. I've accepted that. The BBB process does not preclude using the small claims court process in any way. I could use it to try to get the rest of my money back, but I have chosen to let it go at this point.

So if you have a costly service/dealer experience, try the BBB process. It may get some/all of your money back.

-Bob

MaverickZ71 · August 9, 2019

On 8/4/2019 at 1:01 PM, Homer1952 said:

FW/EIW, I looked in the back of my Acadia's OM & found the GM number & the BBB process for dispute claim help. The GM phone number was not helpful at all. The person I talked to seemed clueless. It seems like GM (and many other companies) has contracted these customer services out to a supplier.

So I was considering a small claims court claim, which would cost $30 for a claim under $600 here in Michigan. But I also saw that the OM offered the BBB process. Now I don't have a lot of faith in the BBB given their spotted history, but I thought I'd give it a try. So I filed a claim with them. I found the forms a bit cryptic to use & direct communications with BBB a bit difficult. But it started a dialogue with GM & BBB. After a lot of back & forth, I received a check from GM (not the dealer) for $397 & a letter of apology. I made a mistake on the original post as the cost was $547 (not $457). So I am still out a bit of change, but this represents about 1+ hour of troubleshooting at the dealer. I've accepted that. The BBB process does not preclude using the small claims court process in any way. I could use it to try to get the rest of my money back, but I have chosen to let it go at this point.

So if you have a costly service/dealer experience, try the BBB process. It may get some/all of your money back.

-Bob

You altered your vehicle. There was nothing wrong with it, but you just had to have "white lights". There are instances of LEDs causing electrical problems in new vehicles all over the internet, but some people just have to modify things without studying what the effect might be.

No problem, it's your vehicle, you say. That is, no problem until you make GM eat the charge to fix it. It was in no way their fault! Thanks for making the rest of us pay for your idiocy. Man up and take full responsibility for your own mistakes in life.

Edited August 10, 2019 by txab
removed somewhat offensive name calling, due to report

Homer1952 · August 9, 2019

Show me where in the owners manual or even on a GM site the I altered my vehicle? There isn't a place in the manual that specifies the bulb, nor on any GM site for my GM vehicle. No warnings from GM about using LED bulbs anywhere for my vehicle that has LED bulbs in so many places I lost count. Amazon & Philips recommend this bulb for my vehicle.

The dealer took 9 hours to figure this out. So even they didn't know better than the consumer.

If the dealer Service write up guy had asked me if I made any modifications, I would have said no, because the manual & GM sites don't lead me to believe that. If they'd have asked me if I changed any bulbs, I would have said yes & then they would have said to remove them to see if the problem goes away & no expense would have occurred by anyone. That is what should have occurred.

Plus GM apologized to me for the incident in a letter that accompanied the check.

So no idiocy on this end or curse words needed. You are just a rude person. Or... maybe you just had a bad day?

Silverado4x4 · August 11, 2019

On 8/9/2019 at 3:40 PM, Homer1952 said:

Show me where in the owners manual or even on a GM site the I altered my vehicle? There isn't a place in the manual that specifies the bulb, nor on any GM site for my GM vehicle. No warnings from GM about using LED bulbs anywhere for my vehicle that has LED bulbs in so many places I lost count. Amazon & Philips recommend this bulb for my vehicle.

The dealer took 9 hours to figure this out. So even they didn't know better than the consumer.

If the dealer Service write up guy had asked me if I made any modifications, I would have said no, because the manual & GM sites don't lead me to believe that. If they'd have asked me if I changed any bulbs, I would have said yes & then they would have said to remove them to see if the problem goes away & no expense would have occurred by anyone. That is what should have occurred.

Plus GM apologized to me for the incident in a letter that accompanied the check.

So no idiocy on this end or curse words needed. You are just a rude person. Or... maybe you just had a bad day?

Well you must have not looked good enough because its in there as its in our owners manual for the Traverse. See below under bulb replacement

Bulb Replacement For the proper type of replacement bulbs, or any bulb changing procedure not listed in this section, contact your dealer.
Caution
Do not replace incandescent bulbs with aftermarket LED replacement bulbs. This can cause damage to the vehicle electrical system.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Silverado4x4

Homer1952 · August 11, 2019

There you go assuming again. How can you be critical of others when you assume? Don't you deal in facts?? I've read some of your other posts.

The 2018 Acadia manual is found online. It is a searchable PDF. Search for "aftermarket", or bulbs, or lamps.

Since this is difficult for you, I'll even give you the link:

https://my.gmc.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2018/GMC/Acadia/2018-gmc-acadia-owners-manual.pdf

And if you are replacing a burned out bulb after the dealer is closed or on a weekend? Calling the dealer is asinine for a simple bulb replacement. It should be in the manual. It was in my 2008 Pontiac Torrent. It had a complete bulb chart.

Now who didn't look good enough? Once again, it's not me.

txab · August 11, 2019

27 minutes ago, Silverado4x4 said:

Well you must have not looked good enough because its in there as its in our owners manual for the Traverse. See below under bulb replacement

Bulb Replacement For the proper type of replacement bulbs, or any bulb changing procedure not listed in this section, contact your dealer.
Caution
Do not replace incandescent bulbs with aftermarket LED replacement bulbs. This can cause damage to the vehicle electrical system.

Your 2019 manual references that. The 2018 does not

Homer1952 · August 11, 2019

Not sure what you mean "Your 2019...". I don't have a 2019. Maybe you meant: The 2019...

My 2018 was delivered with a 2018 manual. But GM has the ability to modify the online 2018 manual to include what should have been in the 2018 via an errata sheets, etc. They haven't. And I wouldn't d/l a 2019 because the '19 could be a different in many areas.

Thanx for pointing out the 2019 does. This proves my point that the dealer should have known about this issue, asked me about any bulb changes & there would have been no waste on anyone's part. I would have left & changed the bulbs back to incandescents.

Imcrazy · August 11, 2019

On 8/9/2019 at 12:00 PM, MaverickZ71 said:

You altered your vehicle. There was nothing wrong with it, but you just had to have "white lights". There are instances of LEDs causing electrical problems in new vehicles all over the internet, but some people just have to modify things without studying what the effect might be.

No problem, it's your vehicle, you say. That is, no problem until you make GM eat the charge to fix it. It was in no way their fault! Thanks for making the rest of us pay for your idiocy. Man up and take full responsibility for your own mistakes in life.

It's totally insane that it took a "tech" 8 hours to figure that out, they raked him over the coals trying to get that much time paid for by the owner... As other have stated the 2018 owners manual doesn't specify LED as being an issue... I guess now it's your turn to man up and admit your oversight?