The Peckish Synapse

[customboss]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Let's have us some fun, eh? 

 

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf

 

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/EURO_5W30_PROD_INFO2023.pdf

 

 

Question. What is the trade? Let's limit it to just the AMSOIL SS to Red Line HP portion. 

 

We have some hints.

 

Hint #1 NOACK viscosity.

AMSOIL SS 5W30 6.7%

Red Line HP 5W30 5.0%

 

Hint #2 HTHS

AMSOIL SS 3.11

Red Line HP 3.6

 

Hint #3: Recommended Dexos application

AMSOIL SS Dexos1Gen2/3

Red Line HP adds Dexos2 and PORSCHE C30 VW/AUDI 504/507 ACEA C3

 

So again, what is the trade? Base oil viscosity AND volatility. Granted the volatility is just over HALF the Dexos1Gen3 standard of 12.5% and well within the 15% SAE SP marker. But hardly the point of this post. 

 

What is to the point is AMSOIL SS relies on POLYMER more than base oil for it's high shear/high temperature viscosity. 

 

The trade is:

 

"Film Strength"

 

That term really means film thickness at a base temperature, load and speed. Stribeck once more. 

 

Motors use POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT PUMPS. 8 gpm is 8 gpm no matter if it is 4000 Poise or 6000 Poise. If it's liquid, it moves at the same rate. All that happens is the Red Line HP cold starts at a higher pressure. 

 

I'm not picking on AMSOIL. I'm using the information they provide to make a point about marketing. Did you get it?

You don’t know that Amsoil is using more polymeric additives. You’re guessing. 

[Grumpy Bear]

8 hours ago, customboss said:

You don’t know that Amsoil is using more polymeric additives. You’re guessing. 

 

Reread what I said. Pay close attention to the grammar and punctuation. I didn't comment on the volume at all.

 

I said 'reliance on' polymers. That requires zero guessing. If you using a lighter more volatile base to reach the same viscosity you are doing that ON polymers and not on the BASE VISCOSITY. That is a simple point of reason. It's their function. 

 

Could be more. Could be more MV. Could be a different structure but it will be more RELIANT on the polymer and that polymer is SACRIFICIAL. 

 

Edited November 30, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

It's a Crying Shame

 

https://www.cpchem.com/what-we-do/solutions/polyalphaolefins/products

 

There is a world where one could blend a base with great low temperature properties that also has a wear worthy HTHS (3.5 cP or higher) AND has exceptional solvency and lubricity. PAO/mPAO/POE blends could check allot of boxes before additives. There are several that use two of these three, PAO/POE, and a few more than use Group III/IV/AN's. These almost right sacrifice properties in favor of cost and GOALS.

 

The one that does not give up much of anything is not going to be sold for a $10 or $11 dollar member price or good guy deals for long standing customers. It also doesn't have the support of the OEM's, the API or the EPA. Would not have read across and unlikely any small blender is going to put up a few million research dollars to get it approved. A giant head wind exist from those the DO THE TESTING. Ergo you are not going to get an OEM/API licensed "Best". You wont see one from a major that does there own in house testing either. Low supply volumes of these products competing with their own mineral based products into a market with cataracts working against board member mandated margins. Lord, greed's belly is never full. That isn't competition. Just old fashion greed. 

 

But you can get a few very good "as close as it gets" products without those approvals. And there is a headwind there too. Marketing and haters and educators swamping the education zone with fear and half truths and cherry picked facts. Sometimes all wearing the same hat. And of course more greed from low quality imitations that are unsilenced and not afraid to lie from the heart. 

 

Chevron Oronite-Phillips-Red Line Oil.  A vertically integrated company. I'm good. 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Extra Credit

 

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG/BOK/LS/Additives/Additive Challenges in Meeting New Auto Engine Specs_tlt article_Sept06.pdf

 

Entire thing is a good read but I smiled when I read the ZDDP section and remembered the myriad of ways marketers and engineers and tribologist have worked with all effort to hide the facts and the truth about this product. 

 

But I expect the STLE is also considered a bunch of morons by some of it's own members. 

 

Funny, I didn't read once "Intellectual Property" as a reason not to explain the facts. 

 

 

[customboss]

On 11/29/2024 at 8:56 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Reread what I said. Pay close attention to the grammar and punctuation. I didn't comment on the volume at all.

 

I said 'reliance on' polymers. That requires zero guessing. If you using a lighter more volatile base to reach the same viscosity you are doing that ON polymers and not on the BASE VISCOSITY. That is a simple point of reason. It's their function. 

 

Could be more. Could be more MV. Could be a different structure but it will be more RELIANT on the polymer and that polymer is SACRIFICIAL. 

 

Well Brother it may come as a surprise to you that volatile components aren’t just VII. Most high quality versions aren’t volatile anymore than base oils. 

[customboss]

10 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Extra Credit

 

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG/BOK/LS/Additives/Additive Challenges in Meeting New Auto Engine Specs_tlt article_Sept06.pdf

 

Entire thing is a good read but I smiled when I read the ZDDP section and remembered the myriad of ways marketers and engineers and tribologist have worked with all effort to hide the facts and the truth about this product. 

 

But I expect the STLE is also considered a bunch of morons by some of it's own members. 

 

Funny, I didn't read once "Intellectual Property" as a reason not to explain the facts. 

 

 

Trust me ALOT has changed I. Engine oil formulations since 2006!!! 

[customboss]

10 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

It's a Crying Shame

 

https://www.cpchem.com/what-we-do/solutions/polyalphaolefins/products

 

There is a world where one could blend a base with great low temperature properties that also has a wear worthy HTHS (3.5 cP or higher) AND has exceptional solvency and lubricity. PAO/mPAO/POE blends could check allot of boxes before additives. There are several that use two of these three, PAO/POE, and a few more than use Group III/IV/AN's. These almost right sacrifice properties in favor of cost and GOALS.

 

The one that does not give up much of anything is not going to be sold for a $10 or $11 dollar member price or good guy deals for long standing customers. It also doesn't have the support of the OEM's, the API or the EPA. Would not have read across and unlikely any small blender is going to put up a few million research dollars to get it approved. A giant head wind exist from those the DO THE TESTING. Ergo you are not going to get an OEM/API licensed "Best". You wont see one from a major that does there own in house testing either. Low supply volumes of these products competing with their own mineral based products into a market with cataracts working against board member mandated margins. Lord, greed's belly is never full. That isn't competition. Just old fashion greed. 

 

But you can get a few very good "as close as it gets" products without those approvals. And there is a headwind there too. Marketing and haters and educators swamping the education zone with fear and half truths and cherry picked facts. Sometimes all wearing the same hat. And of course more greed from low quality imitations that are unsilenced and not afraid to lie from the heart. 

 

Chevron Oronite-Phillips-Red Line Oil.  A vertically integrated company. I'm good. 

 

 

 

Happy for you. Phillips had to buy Refline to get that verticality! LOL

[Grumpy Bear]

On 11/30/2024 at 9:22 PM, customboss said:

Well Brother it may come as a surprise to you that volatile components aren’t just VII. Most high quality versions aren’t volatile anymore than base oils. 

 

 Never said VII was an indication of volatility. Volatility is an indication of base oil viscosity  and even type and viscosity is an indication of the amount and/or MW of the VII being used.

 

It is not like you to miss so badly. 

 

What is the  is the matter with you? This thing you are doing isn't even about being right or wrong and it certainly isn't about being informative. Your just throwing crap on a wall hoping something sticks. 

 

On 11/30/2024 at 9:25 PM, customboss said:

Happy for you. Phillips had to buy Refline to get that verticality! LOL

 

Tell me what you hoped to accomplish with the  statement.  

 

 This is talking to you and I'm not even talking to you. 

You are Roy BTW

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

On 11/30/2024 at 9:23 PM, customboss said:

Trust me ALOT has changed I. Engine oil formulations since 2006!!! 

 

Yes, they have and not for the better.

 

Kind of the point of my writing about those things than have changed that were changes as a result of regulation and changes of mpg goals and NOT improvements geared toward reducing wear.

 

More to the point, wear has gotten worse as the results of these changes. Cleanliness has not improved in the REAL WOLRD.  Declining oil quality and ridiculous OCI's and marketing that plays on the ignorance, greed and fear of Joe Public. You are not ignorant of these facts and that truth NEVER changes.   

 

Good job. We know live in a world where ring seal and oil consumption is worse than it was in 1930's. Yea, allot has changed.  

 

You are on the wrong side of this and that is shameful knowing  your background.  You know for a fact which bases produce the best result and yet you fight against them. WHY? 

 

Ya know what? Don't answer that question. It will just be more 

[customboss]

4 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Yes, they have and not for the better.

 

Kind of the point of my writing about those things than have changed that were changes as a result of regulation and changes of mpg goals and NOT improvements geared toward reducing wear.

 

More to the point, wear has gotten worse as the results of these changes. Cleanliness has not improved in the REAL WOLRD.  Declining oil quality and ridiculous OCI's and marketing that plays on the ignorance, greed and fear of Joe Public. You are not ignorant of these facts and that truth NEVER changes.   

 

Good job. We know live in a world where ring seal and oil consumption is worse than it was in 1930's. Yea, allot has changed.  

 

You are on the wrong side of this and that is shameful knowing  your background.  You know for a fact which bases produce the best result and yet you fight against them. WHY? 

 

Ya know what? Don't answer that question. It will just be more 

Im

not sharp enough to BS. JUST sharing what Ai can with what brain is remaining. 

[Grumpy Bear]

Viscosity...is the most significant parameter of a PCMO/HDMO

 

Games are played with it; in the way it is framed, explained, measured and marketed. All of that is built on a foundation of sand. A foundation that shifts with time, intentions and the needs of everything and everyone but the machine and the lubricant that protects it.  It's a machine and it's a lubricant. Period. Machines change, Lubricants change but they are still what they are; something needing lubrication and something that is lubricant. K.I.S.S. Viscosity is the most significant parameter in that relationship. 

 

Man can build and produce both but they can NOT do so outside the boundaries of physics and chemistry. Mobil nor GM can create new laws of physics or laws of chemistry. That is God's job. What they know is what they have discovered, not created. They can chose to use them to their fullest advantage OR to their greatest profit. Which do you think is true? 

 

Da Vinci believed that every invention of man is an inferior copy of the creators original works and the best man can do, is combine a few in a unique way nature has not. I agree. In fact sanity requires it. Rationality requires it and any intelligent discussion of physical matters requires it. The conversation needs BEDROCK not sand to build upon. 

 

Marketing is the art of the lie told in a way that frames and promotes the agenda of the liar. I haven't any use for lies or liars or those that promote lies or liars. Nor those that use them to distract the conversation away from its goals. The truth. 

 

What the public needs is an explanation, not a snow job. But it isn't always what they want. Almost never what is available. And when there is the slightest attempt to supply, there is no shortage of assault laid upon the truth. 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[diyer2]

Now you 2 are thumping your chests here. Just change the oil more and this is all wasted time.

[Grumpy Bear]

4 hours ago, diyer2 said:

Now you 2 are thumping your chests here. Just change the oil more and this is all wasted time.

 

Glad you have an opinion.  

 

I see you've chosen to be the voice of 336,687 members and know their minds collectively so feel comfortable speaking for the whole assembly of members.

 

Maybe you can sate a curiosity of mine. 

 

French Vanilla, Rocky Road, Chocolate, Peanut Butter, Cookie Dough. Scoop there it is. Can you provide me a breakdown of how many members like each one of these flavors? 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

What does it all mean? 

 

Last night I posted to this title a careful distillation of thought on viscosity, preceded by the conclusion for the attention deficit crowd. Then I woke up at 5 AM and erased it to post a different thought. 

 

Distribution of useful information is being called 'chest thumping' and 'a waste of time'. 

 

I think @diyer2 is half right. It has turned out to be a waste of time. My time. 

 

Chest thumping? 

 

It's been said that with knowledge comes responsibility. 

 

“From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked” (Luke 12:48).

 

This has nothing to do with Spiderman nor Uncle Ben nor Western Culture. These are Jesus words about knowledge of the sacred pronouncements of God. Thing is, people believe a fictional person before Christ and in so doing show the nature of man. He doesn't care about the truth or the source of the lies he believes, and as such cannot benefit from it. And man will give credit to whomever he pleases. Really, Uncle Ben gets credit for Christ words? 

 

I'll leave the "Why" to the shrinks and prophets. 

 

But at this point, I fail to see how I benefit from others knowing what I know. If I did, in fact benefit, then diyer2 would be right. Chest Thumping. He challenges my motivations. Wow, there's nothing new.

 

Let's see. Do I:

 

1.) Get a kickback from any blender or refiner? No.

2.) Does my equipment benefit from someone else's beliefs? No.

3.) Do I get advertising dollars from a third party such as YouTube? No.

4.) Is praise for the effort heaped upon me? No. 

5.) Do the 363K plus member come to the defense of accurate knowledge? No.

6.) Positive ego stroking attention? Hardly  

 

 

 

Chest thumping? I think not. But yea, a waste of time. But...mine to waste. So,

 

Bugger Off! 

 

PS. Know who benefits from knowing the truth? Me, and a slim minority of those who have privately sought it.  

 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[OnTheReel]

9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

What does it all mean? 

 

Last night I posted to this title a careful distillation of thought on viscosity, preceded by the conclusion for the attention deficit crowd. Then I woke up at 5 AM and erased it to post a different thought. 

 

Distribution of useful information is being called 'chest thumping' and 'a waste of time'. 

 

I think @diyer2 is half right. It has turned out to be a waste of time. My time. 

 

Chest thumping? 

 

It's been said that with knowledge comes responsibility. 

 

“From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked” (Luke 12:48).

 

This has nothing to do with Spiderman nor Uncle Ben nor Western Culture. These are Jesus words about knowledge of the sacred pronouncements of God. Thing is, people believe a fictional person before Christ and in so doing show the nature of man. He doesn't care about the truth or the source of the lies he believes, and as such cannot benefit from it. And man will give credit to whomever he pleases. Really, Uncle Ben gets credit for Christ words? 

 

I'll leave the "Why" to the shrinks and prophets. 

 

But at this point, I fail to see how I benefit from others knowing what I know. If I did, in fact benefit, then diyer2 would be right. Chest Thumping. He challenges my motivations. Wow, there's nothing new.

 

Let's see. Do I:

 

1.) Get a kickback from any blender or refiner? No.

2.) Does my equipment benefit from someone else's beliefs? No.

3.) Do I get advertising dollars from a third party such as YouTube? No.

4.) Is praise for the effort heaped upon me? No. 

5.) Do the 363K plus member come to the defense of accurate knowledge? No.

6.) Positive ego stroking attention? Hardly  

 

 

 

Chest thumping? I think not. But yea, a waste of time. But...mine to waste. So,

 

Bugger Off! 

 

PS. Know who benefits from knowing the truth? Me, and a slim minority of those who have privately sought it.  

 

 

“For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.”

 

A quote usually used in discussions of religion fits equally well in the discussion of lubrication. The facts of tribology are much easier to prove. But to someone who doesn’t want to hear the truth it’s not any easier than convincing an atheist.

 

I personally don’t agree with the quote completely because it suggests it’s not even worth it to present an argument. But at least it helps temper my expectations…