The Peckish Synapse

[Grumpy Bear]

 He's going to wear it out with that vicious oil! 

It will burn to the ground. 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

 

 

 

Anyone remember, "Four out of five Doctors recommend KOOL Menthol for sore throats". Experts promoting an agenda. Who's paying who to say what.  

 

Know what I trust? My lying eyes. My instrumentation. Post OP teardown inspections on MY equipment I do over 50 years of driving and building. SAE tech papers. Peer reviewed published Doctoral papers. And my 40 years in the business. I also trust rational conclusions based on the foundations laid by those whose shoulders we stand on. I trust the laws of thermodynamics, gravity, entropy and so on and so forth. 

 

I've run oils between SAE20 and SAE60 and every commercial multigrade in between. I have never seen nor measured an increase in oil temperature that was based on viscosity that any reasonable person could extrapolate, interpolate or measure directly or indirectly as 'viscosity driven wear' inside the bounds of a 'well tuned' and flaw free motor, retail products operating in the real work a day world. 

 

I have seen bulk oil temperatures move with changes in base oil type. I have seen temperatures get out of bounds when there is too little viscosity and I have seen mechanical issues push an oil to resemble ciders. But the idea that running a 5W40 in a well tuned road motor who's manufacture is specifying a 0W20 will wear it out is a....

 

LIE

 

What do you think the median oil VISCOSITY is for a motor run by the "Little Ole Lady" whose total trip length is under 10 miles between cold starts and lives in Edmonton. Think it may be different than say Death Valley and 100 mile trips? You see more variation is the daily operation than in five weight grades at operating temperatures and the OEM does not change his recommendations for Jack and Jill Average. But he will call out 0W20 for a 6.2 Truck and 5W30 for a Corvette and *W40 for track days. Ford Mustangs LOL 5W50. 

 

Fella I referenced in the last post is about to double the 'Expected and Legal Life Time" of that LS motor running 10W40 in New Zealand. Look that latitude up. 43 degrees. Closer to it's pole than I am to mine. 

 

 

 

 

 

[KARNUT]

6 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

 

 

Anyone remember, "Four out of five Doctors recommend KOOL Menthol for sore throats". Experts promoting an agenda. Who's paying who to say what.  

 

Know what I trust? My lying eyes. My instrumentation. Post OP teardown inspections on MY equipment I do over 50 years of driving and building. SAE tech papers. Peer reviewed published Doctoral papers. And my 40 years in the business. I also trust rational conclusions based on the foundations laid by those whose shoulders we stand on. I trust the laws of thermodynamics, gravity, entropy and so on and so forth. 

 

I've run oils between SAE20 and SAE60 and every commercial multigrade in between. I have never seen nor measured an increase in oil temperature that was based on viscosity that any reasonable person could extrapolate, interpolate or measure directly or indirectly as 'viscosity driven wear' inside the bounds of a 'well tuned' and flaw free motor, retail products operating in the real work a day world. 

 

I have seen bulk oil temperatures move with changes in base oil type. I have seen temperatures get out of bounds when there is too little viscosity and I have seen mechanical issues push an oil to resemble ciders. But the idea that running a 5W40 in a well tuned road motor who's manufacture is specifying a 0W20 will wear it out is a....

 

LIE

 

What do you think the median oil VISCOSITY is for a motor run by the "Little Ole Lady" whose total trip length is under 10 miles between cold starts and lives in Edmonton. Think it may be different than say Death Valley and 100 mile trips? You see more variation is the daily operation than in five weight grades at operating temperatures and the OEM does not change his recommendations for Jack and Jill Average. But he will call out 0W20 for a 6.2 Truck and 5W30 for a Corvette and *W40 for track days. Ford Mustangs LOL 5W50. 

 

Fella I referenced in the last post is about to double the 'Expected and Legal Life Time" of that LS motor running 10W40 in New Zealand. Look that latitude up. 43 degrees. Closer to it's pole than I am to mine. 

 

 

 

 

 

Most everything unfortunately you have to weigh who’s making the claim and what is the benefit the claim is to them. That includes food, medicine, well everything. Usually it how it affects the masses not the individual. For instance I recently stopped using sweet and low. I felt awful. I looked it up. You can suffer withdrawals and I did. After two months food was more satisfying and cravings were much less. I eat butter not a substitute. Milk not 2 percent. Things like that. I rolled the clock back 50 years before the latest experts got involved in our diet. I eat less feel more satisfied and lost 30lbs so far. Every manufacturer stretches the maintenance schedule. It’s geared to the average driver. Ten to fifteen thousand miles a year 5 years turn over. Anyone else, the ten year turn over that’s still 100 to 150K mile driver that schedule will serve most people. Only people who do research realize in most cases were being lied to about most everything. Look at the latest diet fad. All it takes to lose weight is this shot. Just wait for the long term effects from that.

[Grumpy Bear]

https://fuelsmarketnews.com/the-past-and-future-of-gasoline-additives/  [quote from this link below]

 

Friction modifiers allow for a thin layer of lubrication to coat the walls of the cylinder, reducing friction and wear, as well as decreasing the amount of gasoline burned per cycle. According to Chevron, friction modifiers have a water-soluble end that attaches to the metal surface of the cylinder wall and an oil-soluble end that faces outward to reduce friction. ExxonMobil introduced its Synergy Supreme+ premium gasoline, which includes a new friction modifier that reduces wear and tear on engines by up to 30%, according to the company. Similarly, Shell’s V-Power NiTRO+ premium gasoline yielded significantly smaller wear scars in a wear test (ASTM D6079) against lowest additive concentration (LAC) gasoline, according to the company.

[Grumpy Bear]

It ain't one thing.....

 

Back up from the forest. Look at ALL the trees.

 

How long that driveline last is the sum of its MEDIAN experience. ALL OF IT. 

 

What base oil?

What viscosity profile?

What add package?

How long in service?

Under what service?

How well maintained?

In what environment?

Using what fuel?

 

Every time I put the key in the ignition I ask myself how what I'm about to do contributes to the MEDIAN experience of the machine. How does in modify, enable, enforce, detract from its ROUTINE?

 

Actually look at this graph.

 

 

Note TOP RING is NOT affected by HTHS viscosity once above 2.25 cP? Because? 

 

Fuel dilution above the second ring face is horrid.

 

Thus viscosity is, no matter what it is between the second and third ring is, is hardly ever above 2.2 cP. 

 

Change it often enough to prevent dilution and three body abrasive wear. Filter it, move it to the right. 

 

Keep it tune and lean enough to lower fuel dilution. Move effective HTHS to the right.

 

Use a FUEL that provides friction modification at a 30% rate and you've effectively moved the HTHS a full point to the right. 

 

Lower the load, Brake Mean Effective Pressure, more it right.

 

Lower median piston speeds. Every mile you can. 

 

Lower the cylinder wall temperature, more to the right.

 

Increase the detergency of the fuel to prevent build up on the top ring land, HUGE to the right. Carbon is very abrasive. 

 

You can do one thing right and still get really bad results if everything else on the motors punch list is wrong. 

 

You may not believe me.

 

You may not believe in gravity either but ignore it and when you hit the deck your will find out that the ground doesn't have an opinion. Just provides a consequence.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[Grumpy Bear]

Ford Model A

 

https://modelafordclub.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Ford-Model-A-Which-Oil-to-Use-Petroleum-vs-Synthetic-March-2012.pdf

[customboss]

22 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Ford Model A

 

https://modelafordclub.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Ford-Model-A-Which-Oil-to-Use-Petroleum-vs-Synthetic-March-2012.pdf

Glad to see the model A club world wide and Kiwis finally wake up that once you update seals THERES NO REASON NOT TO USE BETTER QUALITY Lubricants WITH  APPROPRIATE ADDITIVES TO ENGINE METALLURGY.   

Edited December 15, 2024 by customboss

[Grumpy Bear]

9 hours ago, customboss said:

Glad to see the model A club world wide and Kiwis finally wake up that once you update deals THERES NO REASON NOT TO USE BETTER QUALITY Lubricants WITH  APPROPRIATE ADDITIVES TO ENGINE METALLURGY.   

 

Not what I got out of it. But...if that is what you see, it's what you see. 

[Grumpy Bear]

https://www.stle.org/files/TLTArchives/2023/04_April/Lubrication_Fundamentals.aspx

[Grumpy Bear]

From link above: 

 

Permanent shear happens when the VIIs are subjected to high stress, and the long molecular structure is broken into shorter polymers. The shorter polymers no longer provide the desired viscosity at the operating temperature. The oil no longer “stays-in-grade,” or instead of being an SAE 10W-30, it now has the viscosities of SAE 10W-20 or lower. 

A common area of high shear would be in the lubricant film between the engine cam lobes and tappets, or between the meshing of heavily loaded gear teeth in the transmission or final drives of mobile equipment. This is one of the reasons the viscosity of used automotive applications oils, or oils with high VIs, should be monitored at 100 C to see if the VIIs have experienced permanent shear and need to be changed out. 

PSSI is a measure of how much a VII permanently shears under specific conditions. A VII with a PSSI of 10 loses 10% of its viscosity contribution to the finished oil’s viscosity, and a VII with a PSSI of 50 loses 50%. Therefore, the lower the PSSI, the more stable the VII is. 

There exist several different ASTM methods for measuring PSSI. So, when comparing PSSIs of finished lubricants, it is critical to know the test method used. Some procedures pass the oil through a fuel injector, and different ASTM test methods require different pressures and number of passes through the injector. Another two ASTM test methods utilize a sonic oscillator to cavitate the oil creating the shearing mechanism. Although the shearing mechanism of the sonic and the injector methods are different, the results do correlate fairly well with each other. A more severe shear test is the KRL test, which utilizes tapered roller bearings under load for a specified duration and rpm. The KRL test is typically used for gear applications, whereas the injector and sonic tests are commonly used for engine and hydraulic lubricants. 


A common area of high shear would be in the lubricant film between the engine cam lobes and tappets, or between the meshing of heavily loaded gear teeth in the transmission or final drives of mobile equipment.

Shear stabilities of VIIs are inversely proportional to their molecular size. Generally, larger, or longer, polymers are more susceptible to shearing compared to shorter polymers. Consider how much easier it is to break a new standard-length pencil compared to the short golf course type pencil. The longer polymers are more efficient in providing the required VI, in that it takes a lower dosage of the long polymer VII than the shorter more durable polymers, and, thus, the cost of the finished lubricant can be lower. This is partially why the early versions of multigrade oils were known for not staying “in grade.” The early multigrade finished lubricants utilized the new-at-the-time polymers to enhance the VI of engine oils, but it quickly became evident more durable VIIs were needed. Shorter polymers improve the durability issue but require a higher dosage, and, thus, higher cost, to acquire the same level viscosity modification, but they do stay “in grade.” The appropriate compromise of efficiency versus durability, and cost, must be considered for the finished lubricant life in a given application. Extended life lubricants require more durable polymers to be able to provide protection over the life of the lubricant. Automotive driveline and other gear sets also should lean more toward the more durable VIIs having a lower PSSI. 

PSSI is not a typical performance data result provided on product technical data sheets. However, if the kinematic viscosity at 100 C in used oil analysis results drops more than 10% before the oil change out, a shorter drain interval may be required. Or a switch to a “long-drain” interval oil that likely is formulated with more shear stable VIIs that also is likely more expensive could be cost effective. 
 

[customboss]

Hydrogen anyone

 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62638885/alpine-alpenglow-hy6-concept-reveal/

 

 

 

 

[Grumpy Bear]

https://www.amazon.com/Fluid-Analysis-Mobile-Equipment-Maintenance/dp/083113691X

In case you are wondering who Blain Ballentine is, the writer for the below link, the above link. 

 

 

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

 

Excerpt only. Read the whole thing. It's a short read. 

 

Viscosity and Wear

Thinner oils have less drag, and therefore less friction and wear. Right? Perhaps in the test engine or engines that experience normal operation. But somewhat thicker oils may offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling.

Figure 2. Ring Wear

Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thicker oil films can accommodate larger contaminants.

Temperature has a big effect on viscosity and film thickness. As a point of reference, one SAE grade increase in viscosity is necessary to overcome the influence of a 20°F increase in engine temperature. At a given reference point, there is approximately a 20°F. difference between viscosity grades SAE 30, 40 and 50. SAE 20 is somewhat closer to 30 than the other jumps, because SAE 30 must be 30°F higher than SAE 20 to be roughly the equivalent viscosity.

In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multiviscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).

If an SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as an SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.

Ford is bumping up against its CAFE requirements and recommends SAE 5W-20 oil for most of its engines in the United States. It claims SAE 5W-20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.

To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?

 

 

The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W-30 or 15W-40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Grumpy Bear

[customboss]

Grumpy a well formulated SAE 20 is VERY RESISTANT TO VISCOSITY BREAKTHROUGH regardless of temperature. 
 

For instance Amsoil signature series is one of THE most complex formulations so that it retains design vis and not just using one or two constituents it uses 7-8 viscosity and oxidative stabilizing additives that are also bases. 
Redline does it with very high quality PAO majority secondly POE, thirdly super stable VII and a massive overload of ZDTP and ZDDP with Moly.  

[jwhjr]

25 minutes ago, customboss said:

Grumpy a well formulated SAE 20 is VERY RESISTANT TO VISCOSITY BREAKTHROUGH regardless of temperature. 
 

For instance Amsoil signature series is one of THE most complex formulations so that it retains design vis and not just using one or two constituents it uses 7-8 viscosity and oxidative stabilizing additives that are also bases. 
Redline does it with very high quality PAO majority secondly POE, thirdly super stable VII and a massive overload of ZDTP and ZDDP with Moly.  

Can't wait to hear a 7 paragraph reply to this on why you're wrong.  

[diyer2]