Earth Shattering Oil Analysis "Grumpy's Eyes Only"

[Grumpy Bear]

1 hour ago, diyer2 said:

Sorry, but I have to add my 2 cents.

 

Do shorter OCI's and save the cost of an oil analysis.

No need for one IMO.

Put that money toward oil changes.

 

2 minutes ago, mookdoc6 said:

Sorry,  I will add my 5 cents.

 

This has nothing to do with shorter OCI's Read the original post.  

 

Let's put these two together. 

 

UOA was/is the tool used to make various points about various things AND during the course of this discussion we learned a great deal more than we set out to learn, did we not? We learned that:

 

1.) We can not compare different motors on a like bases. 

2.) Oil chemistries can change from the same supplier and under then same label over time. 

3.) viscosity has an impact on wear 'rates'. (and by extension anything that affects viscosity, dilution, temperature, etc.)

4.) makeup oil has an effect of diluting results.

5.) wear rates equalized to like units DO show lower wear rates on shorter OCI's. (ppm./OCI) * 10,000 = ppm/10,000

6.) higher rates of wear than the minimum (within reason) can and do provide long life.

7.) ANY oil can give good results IF changed in accordance with it's ability and chemistry. 

8.) wear is not linear and rises and falls over the life of the motor in a very predictable way. 

9.) there is some statistical 'noise' in the results so that a few ppm means little one way or the other.

10.) UOA's are a look in the rearview mirror. 

11.) we could not know any of this without UOA's.

12.) UOA's can be useful in detection of impending abnormal. They cannot undo the damage the results indicated has already transpired but can provide a bases for corrective actions before a critical event. 

 

We also leaned a few things without the labs. 

 

1.) Different people have different expectations about what a motors 'life time' means.

2.) Expectations drive choices. 

3.) Personal circumstance dictate 'best practice'. As such "best" is relative in no way to science.

4.) People will chose 'other' than what science indicates based on personal circumstances and expectations. 

 

That last one is interesting in that it is also the source of a great deal of argument. People never argue over FACTS, they argue CHOICES they make based on anything whatsoever and a personal need to justify those choices. A part of being human.

 

I'd like to thank MOOK for the time and cost he bore in this undertaking we ALL benefited  from and the courage to display it. 

 

A thanks to dyier2 for reinforcing a point of fact the analysis bore out. It doesn't hurt anything to make note of something the OP intended as other....does it?  No need to toss baby out with the bathwater. 

 

My three cents and now we have a dime and on our way to a dollar.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KARNUT]

One thing that rattles around in my head is the claims that start up is where the most wear happens in an engine. I wonder why the long vehicle life people ( over 200K miles) don’t address this. Pre oiling electric or delayed ignition could address this. It’d be interesting to have an oil tested with this type of set up. 

[L86 All Terrain]

So Grumps, you use Amsoil and change at 5k miles? I run Amsoil Interceptor in my snowmobile so I decided to sign up for preferred pricing last order and ordered a couple jugs of 5w20 for my 6.2L in the spring. I was reading the back of the jug and noticed the recommended to go as high as 25,000km (15,000mi). I don't think I will obviously, I barely put 10,000km per year on that truck. But I have had Texas Refineries recommend as much as 100,000km on their 15w-40 diesel oil so I guess its not too crazy. Why would they tell you to go that high, wouldn't they want to sell more oil, protect your engine better etc? 

[TXGREEK]

So Grumps, you use Amsoil and change at 5k miles? I run Amsoil Interceptor in my snowmobile so I decided to sign up for preferred pricing last order and ordered a couple jugs of 5w20 for my 6.2L in the spring. I was reading the back of the jug and noticed the recommended to go as high as 25,000km (15,000mi). I don't think I will obviously, I barely put 10,000km per year on that truck. But I have had Texas Refineries recommend as much as 100,000km on their 15w-40 diesel oil so I guess its not too crazy. Why would they tell you to go that high, wouldn't they want to sell more oil, protect your engine better etc? 

I use Amsoil Signature Series on my lifted 18 6.2 and do OCI’s every 4K miles. I’ve currently got 31000k miles and never think about going longer OCI’s cause of all the failure BS you read in these forums, a clean engine is a happy automobile owner. There are so many people out there that think that 4K miles is to soon but about 90% of the population that thinks so also doesn’t know that stop and go driving as well as idling is considered heavy duty use on their motor oil. So, I change every 4K miles and have zero regrets in doing so especially with the BS issues like the fuel management systems you read about with these filthy DI engines. Oil related or not and how would anyone know, I care about what oil is in my engine and so far so good, 31000k miles, running super strong with zero issues, do I think it’s cause of Amsoil? Absolutely!


Sent from Above

[Grumpy Bear]

2 minutes ago, L86 All Terrain said:

So Grumps, you use Amsoil and change at 5k miles? I run Amsoil Interceptor in my snowmobile so I decided to sign up for preferred pricing last order and ordered a couple jugs of 5w20 for my 6.2L in the spring. I was reading the back of the jug and noticed the recommended to go as high as 25,000km (15,000mi). I don't think I will obviously, I barely put 10,000km per year on that truck. But I have had Texas Refineries recommend as much as 100,000km on their 15w-40 diesel oil so I guess its not too crazy. Why would they tell you to go that high, wouldn't they want to sell more oil, protect your engine better etc? 

Pepper is still on a diet of Red Line but the wife's Terrain is on AMSOIL as of the last change and yes 5K for each motor OCI. Next change to AMSOIL for Pepper, price and availability driven not performance driven. 

 

I think if you read the entire back label it will also say something about 'when under warranty" to do as the OEM suggest. 

 

 

All manor of claims are made about this and that. There's one of some kind of 'Spring Water" advertised late night currently that claims things no reasonable person would believe, like make you wealthy.  I know a person that bought an alloy dog tag, part of an "all natural" endeavor, that claimed to repel mosquitos and prevent heartworms.  SYNLUBE claims 150,000 mile OCI's!!! Sadly this sort of preying on the public is not illegal.....

 

TRC claims to have a superior additive package that "help protect against the effects of oxidation". Yea okay they all do then continues with "Eliminating sludge and varnish build-up, byproducts of oxidation can help extend drain intervals". Notice the comma? The use of the words extend and HELPS protect? If it eliminated oxidation it truly would eliminate OCI's. They get by with this by use of shadowy points of reference concerning OCI's. It is effective in eliminating sludge and varnish IF you change it often enough. The question is always, how often is often enough? 

 

TRUTH. The end products of OXIDATION are sludge and varnish.

TRUTH. Antioxidants 'retard' oxidation, they do not prevent it and effectiveness is dependent on other factors such as heat and the amount of acidity accumulated in the system.

TRUTH. When things oxidize they 1.) darken 2.) become less effective.

TRUTH. POE containing lubricants have a high degree of solvency. This means they keep liquid what would like to be come solid and as liquids can not be filtered out.

TRUTH Detergents capture particles of oxidation and dispersants prevent them from sticking together in large enough particles to 'drop out' of suspension to become sludge and varnish sticking to engine parts. These particles are SUB MIRCON and can not be filtered out by ANY conventional spin on filter even bypass systems that go down to 2 micron.

TRUTH: Why are detergents and dispersants needed in SUPERIOR oils? Because ALL OILS OXIDIZE! 

TRUTH: Fresh motor oil already contains enough abrasive particles to be damaging to a mechanical device. That amount is the basis for setting engine life valued by factory engineers, a 1X value, and extending those values by bypass filtration systems.

 

I use POE oils but I do not subscribe to extended OCI's. At least by the standard set out by the industry.

 

GM has eliminated all oils from their list that are not "Full Synthetic" and have recently reduced the recommended OCI's. These oils are of the type MOOK used in his 100,000 mile long term test. A Mobil 1 product that meets the Dexos 1 Gen2 standard. And what did those miles tell us? Shorter OCI's produce a lower rate of wear.   

 

Lower rates mean longer life. The question everyone needs to ask is how long a life would you like? Then choose an oil, a filter and an OCI that will fulfill that goal. 

 

 

[TXGREEK]

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Pepper is still on a diet of Red Line but the wife's Terrain is on AMSOIL as of the last change and yes 5K for each motor OCI. Next change to AMSOIL for Pepper, price and availability driven not performance driven. 
 
I think if you read the entire back label it will also say something about 'when under warranty" to do as the OEM suggest. 
 
 
All manor of claims are made about this and that. There's one of some kind of 'Spring Water" advertised late night currently that claims things no reasonable person would believe, like make you wealthy.  I know a person that bought an alloy dog tag, part of an "all natural" endeavor, that claimed to repel mosquitos and prevent heartworms.  SYNLUBE claims 150,000 mile OCI's!!! Sadly this sort of preying on the public is not illegal.....
 
TRC claims to have a superior additive package that "help protect against the effects of oxidation". Yea okay they all do then continues with "Eliminating sludge and varnish build-up, byproducts of oxidation can help extend drain intervals". Notice the comma? The use of the words extend and HELPS protect? If it eliminated oxidation it truly would eliminate OCI's. They get by with this by use of shadowy points of reference concerning OCI's. It is effective in eliminating sludge and varnish IF you change it often enough. The question is always, how often is often enough? 
 
TRUTH. The end products of OXIDATION are sludge and varnish.
TRUTH. Antioxidants 'retard' oxidation, they do not prevent it and effectiveness is dependent on other factors such as heat and the amount of acidity accumulated in the system.
TRUTH. When things oxidize they 1.) darken 2.) become less effective.
TRUTH. POE containing lubricants have a high degree of solvency. This means they keep liquid what would like to be come solid and as liquids can not be filtered out.
TRUTH Detergents capture particles of oxidation and dispersants prevent them from sticking together in large enough particles to 'drop out' of suspension to become sludge and varnish sticking to engine parts. These particles are SUB MIRCON and can not be filtered out by ANY conventional spin on filter even bypass systems that go down to 2 micron.
TRUTH: Why are detergents and dispersants needed in SUPERIOR oils? Because ALL OILS OXIDIZE! 
TRUTH: Fresh motor oil already contains enough abrasive particles to be damaging to a mechanical device. That amount is the basis for setting engine life valued by factory engineers, a 1X value, and extending those values by bypass filtration systems.
 
I use POE oils but I do not subscribe to extended OCI's. At least by the standard set out by the industry.
 
GM has eliminated all oils from their list that are not "Full Synthetic" and have recently reduced the recommended OCI's. These oils are of the type MOOK used in his 100,000 mile long term test. A Mobil 1 product that meets the Dexos 1 Gen2 standard. And what did those miles tell us? Shorter OCI's produce a lower rate of wear.   
 

Lower rates mean longer life. The question everyone needs to ask is how long a life would you like? Then choose an oil, a filter and an OCI that will fulfill that goal. 

 

 

 

Well said Grumpy, it’s usually the ones that buy budget oil and not what’s best for their vehicles, just minimum requirement budget oil.



Sent from Above

 

[diyer2]

I quote Grumpy.

"Shorter OCI's produce a lower rate of wear."

Lower rates mean longer life. The question everyone needs to ask is how long a life would you like? Then choose an oil, a filter and an OCI that will fulfill that goal. 

This has been my thinking all along with these oil threads.

Why I do 3 K mile OCI's.

I don't need oil tests. I just look at the oil and figure dirty means lots of junk in it.

This I posted eslewhere but.

700 miles on a new GDI turbo engine. Factory oil.

I watched this oil darken by checking it every week. 

33 days of ownership. Then oil and filter.

Took the car in for a software update. They also did an overall check and the service writer commented on the oil via the service tech.

I said new engine breaking in I change it early.

I told service writer I did 3 K mile OCI's.

 

I was told not necessary.

Your opinion along with many others was my answer.

 

We have seen in this thread shorter OCI's less wear.

No dirty oil full of junk to cause more wear.

Simple to me.

 

 

[Snowcamo]

Agreed. Its not just the GDI enginges it goes back to the old carbed engines as well. 3k here and won't have worries...

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[Grumpy Bear]

8 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

I quote Grumpy.

 

"Shorter OCI's produce a lower rate of wear."

Lower rates mean longer life. The question everyone needs to ask is how long a life would you like? Then choose an oil, a filter and an OCI that will fulfill that goal. 

 

This has been my thinking all along with these oil threads.

Why I do 3 K mile OCI's.

I don't need oil tests. I just look at the oil and figure dirty means lots of junk in it.

 

We have seen in this thread shorter OCI's less wear.

No dirty oil full of junk to cause more wear.

Simple to me.

 

 

We are on the SAME page. 

 

If we follow the 'general thinking' we continue using oil until something tells us not to. Many are convinced that wear metals are that indicator. But problem is, once I see it...damage done. Why? To raise an eyebrow the result has to go significantly beyond the statistical noise of the data. Even when it does, we "hope' beyond reason and continue. MOOK didn't take his motor down when he got one high result did he? Few would.  

 

Same thinking clouds cleanliness. Once the sludge or varnish has shown itself....damage done. The object here is to change frequently enough as to avoid damage, not mitigate it. How long that takes has some variables granted. My personal standard is zero visible deposits in the pan, in the rocker and valley areas. Some people don't mind a bit of "golden brown".  

 

This oil thing is like asking how hard I have to press a scalpel to create an incision, then arguing about what constitutes a cut. 

 

I like Golden Brown when talking about toast! Not in my motor. We all have different thresholds for these things. 

 

diyer2 has said as long as I've known him. Do what makes ya happy. His happy is 3K and off the shelf and it works for him and it has for millions of operators for millions of miles and over a hundred years. How could anyone argue with that? 

[mookdoc6]

All good feedback and appreciate it!  I did this data collection more or less to appease myself and inform the PEOPLE who care about 0W-20.  Having dealt with GDI problems prior I had not dealt with 0W-20 so I wanted to gather the DATA and punish it through LONG SUMMER AND WINTER OCI'S......I have no gripes with it's performance only negative is I can't see the reading on crankcase dipstick for 2 weeks of use on brand new oil fill.  I have 100% repeatable data with oil i.e. when consumption takes place like clockwork after 5k-6k?  When I talk "Consumption" I am talking unobjectionable amounts and 100% normal/Expected at those mile/hours etc. 5k-7.5k-10k-12k.  I could also loose a bearing tomorrow so no guarantees but she is looking like a solid 300k contender!

[Grumpy Bear]

https://tech.drivenracingoil.com/dont-fall-shady-oil-testing/

 

Some thoughts on YouTube video oil testers.

[Bash74]

We have a delivery date to the shop for the GF6A oil and I am curious to do an analysis of the oil after 5k.

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[mookdoc6]

3 hours ago, Bash74 said:

We have a delivery date to the shop for the GF6A oil and I am curious to do an analysis of the oil after 5k.

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Interested I am!  You know legally it cannot be sold until after May 1st 2020 that is GF6A-B  I know, I know yours is legit....lol

[Grumpy Bear]

10 hours ago, Bash74 said:

We have a delivery date to the shop for the GF6A oil and I am curious to do an analysis of the oil after 5k.

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SN-Plus is an API standard. GF6A is an ILSAC standard. About identical. It is also backward compatible. Mobil 1 products while not labeled GF6A already meet the standards for GF6A so I would bet money any full synthetic SN-Plus already meets those standards as well. The only real new player in that category is the GF6B 0W16 oils. Yea, I won't be the first until these motors are designed for it. 

[KARNUT]

My wife’s Genesis normal oil change according to the maintenance schedule is 7500 miles with semi synthetic. It doesn’t have di or cylinder deactivation. They insist on 3400 mile oil changes. Texas heat they say. I laugh and replied the car has a thermostat, it’s regulated. Blank stare. I do it. Don’t want to risk the 10 year 100K bumper to bumper warranty. Just a few dollars more.


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