Castrol Edge VS Amsoil OE

customboss · October 22, 2021

GrumpyBear, See attached PDF as an example. You compare the same battery of testing against another lubricant you might be interested in and you have some solid ground to make a choice from. No marketing or confusion. On page 2 even compares to other 5w-30's etc.

As you have shared here quality used oil analysis guided you on knowing how your own truck is running and if its ideally tuned and working best it can.

EO9428.pdf

Z45 · October 22, 2021

2 hours ago, diyer2 said:

So maybe I should consider Amsoils XL line of motor oil for the Santa Fe.

Some FAQ's I saved.......

XL is OE with extended drain technology (12,000 miles or 1 yr) added. That's the difference.

OE oils can be used exactly as specified by the owners manual or oil monitoring system.

Grumpy Bear · October 22, 2021

14 minutes ago, customboss said:

GrumpyBear, See attached PDF as an example. You compare the same battery of testing against another lubricant you might be interested in and you have some solid ground to make a choice from. No marketing or confusion. On page 2 even compares to other 5w-30's etc.

As you have shared here quality used oil analysis guided you on knowing how your own truck is running and if its ideally tuned and working best it can.

EO9428.pdf 133.5 kB · 2 downloads

I've run exactly 1 UOA on Pepper FYI.

Thanks for the report!!

There is some useful information in the PDF you provided in a very generally sense. Those concerning temporary and permanent viscosity losses are of primary interest. Almost everything else useful is covered in the SAE SM specification. Page 2 is useless as it lacks specific context. Two reports from the compared oils would be more useful and yet........I'll circle back to this after proper foundation is laid.

This report compares multiple 5W30 SM/GF4 oils. I'm not concerned who's oils they were but I am concerned about specifics of those oils. Quick example:

Brand A is an SAE SN oil without a DEXOS1Gen2 license. This oil can be formulated from anything. Many are.

Brand B is an SAE SN oil WITH a DEXOS1Gen2 license. This oil MUST use Group III/POA base oils. No Group I-II-II+ or Group V allowed.

This report would be really useful IF it contained the GC report of WHICH base oils and what percentages of those oils were employed, it doesn't.

For an oil to make a difference there has to BE a difference.

And not just A difference but one that MAKES a difference. A second example...quickly

Brand C is an SAE SN made from only PAO and Polyol Esters and as such it contains ZERO viscosity modifiers or PPS additives and because it contains ZERO VM's/PPS is has ZERO viscosity loss due to differences in shear rates. It remains a Newtonian fluid.

Brands A and B from above suffer loss BECAUSE the contain large amount of VM's.

Ergo Brand C MAKES a difference because it IS different. Not just a subtile manipulation of additives all the 'marketing' synthetics contain that for a fact makes difference in the data set but have no practical value.

Does it really matter if Brand A has a NOACK of 7 and brand B a NOACK of 8? They are both lower than either the SAE 15% or the DEXOS 12%.

diyer2 laid a specific foundation. Two oils with both the same SAE and DEXOS license. This made it easy as the base oil was a known. After that we are splitting atoms. Sure...get those two and compare them...why not. Thing is; any difference you may find...how much difference will it take to make a difference when the OCI is 3K miles?? There was the ringer customboss. He could use a SG oil at that OCI and over infinity never see a difference in his lifetime.

customboss · October 22, 2021

14 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I've run exactly 1 UOA on Pepper FYI.

Thanks for the report!!

There is some useful information in the PDF you provided in a very generally sense. Those concerning temporary and permanent viscosity losses are of primary interest. Almost everything else useful is covered in the SAE SM specification. Page 2 is useless as it lacks specific context. Two reports from the compared oils would be more useful and yet........I'll circle back to this after proper foundation is laid.

This report compares multiple 5W30 SM/GF4 oils. I'm not concerned who's oils they were but I am concerned about specifics of those oils. Quick example:

Brand A is an SAE SN oil without a DEXOS1Gen2 license. This oil can be formulated from anything. Many are.

Brand B is an SAE SN oil WITH a DEXOS1Gen2 license. This oil MUST use Group III/POA base oils. No Group I-II-II+ or Group V allowed.

This report would be really useful IF it contained the GC report of WHICH base oils and what percentages of those oils were employed, it doesn't.

For an oil to make a difference there has to BE a difference.

And not just A difference but one that MAKES a difference. A second example...quickly

Brand C is an SAE SN made from only PAO and Polyol Esters and as such it contains ZERO viscosity modifiers or PPS additives and because it contains ZERO VM's/PPS is has ZERO viscosity loss due to differences in shear rates. It remains a Newtonian fluid.

Brands A and B from above suffer loss BECAUSE the contain large amount of VM's.

Ergo Brand C MAKES a difference because it IS different. Not just a subtile manipulation of additives all the 'marketing' synthetics contain that for a fact makes difference in the data set but have no practical value.

Does it really matter if Brand A has a NOACK of 7 and brand B a NOACK of 8? They are both lower than either the SAE 15% or the DEXOS 12%.

diyer2 laid a specific foundation. Two oils with both the same SAE and DEXOS license. This made it easy as the base oil was a known. After that we are splitting atoms. Sure...get those two and compare them...why not. Thing is; any difference you may find...how much difference will it take to make a difference when the OCI is 3K miles?? There was the ringer customboss. He could use a SG oil at that OCI and over infinity never see a difference in his lifetime.

Thought you would appreciate the example of how one could read the apples to apples comparisons from same standardized tests.

Many seem to confuse the available facts. There is a GC scan shown, compare that to another oil in this case Amsoil OE to Edge and you can see the delta of the full formulations.

I shared this test result purely as an example, so you or diyer2 would order a test for each oil you are interested in to compare and contrast.

NONE OF us( unless you are the formulator or blender) know the SPECIFIC formulations base oils for sure, of any oil, nor will be know the EXACT additive chemistry. Proprietary means that.

Since we will never know ALL the proprietary constituents in a given formulation, standardized testing is an intellectually honest way to determine facts.

This is also true, formulations change constantly because of constituents availability, so a formulation with a read across allowance might be shifting all sorts of components in a given blend run almost daily. Why standardized testing for clean oils is critical and used oil analysis to make sure your GM truck is running clean and properly.

Guessing is not helpful and confuses the issues with consumers and sincerely interested alike. Posting guesses is not helpful either. Confuses me!

I see where you mention base oils a lot. The base oil is critical but so is every other constituent. There are base oils that are not reported on SDS nor discussed in marketing. Estolides comes to mind.

Well I offered facts and they are available tested by a third party and at a reasonable cost. The reader can source them and test their own engine to see where they stand.......or trust marketing, API, or internet experts.

customboss · October 22, 2021

PS: BTW Amsoil formulations test very well head to head in standardized testing as well as used oil analysis.

I have personally used and tested Amsoil since 1980 or so.

Castrol has the distinction of bringing to the US the gift of calling highly refined petroleum synthetic. However their formulations are good.

Both use additive packages sources from the same additive companies because there are so few now. The TOTAL formulation quality is the key NOT one part of it.

Chemistries are hand in glove too. Some chemistries work better to solve some problems depending on the burn, venting, and design of a given engine.

diyer2 · October 22, 2021

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond to my thread. If I decide to change from Edge I will got to Amsoil OE. Not a big cost difference and a little better oil IMO. I have to use up my in stock Edge first.

Appreciate it guys.

Grumpy Bear · October 22, 2021

2 hours ago, customboss said:

PS: BTW Amsoil formulations test very well head to head in standardized testing as well as used oil analysis.

I have personally used and tested Amsoil since 1980 or so.

Castrol has the distinction of bringing to the US the gift of calling highly refined petroleum synthetic. However their formulations are good.

Both use additive packages sources from the same additive companies because there are so few now. The TOTAL formulation quality is the key NOT one part of it.

Chemistries are hand in glove too. Some chemistries work better to solve some problems depending on the burn, venting, and design of a given engine.

So you do FUD. Interesting indeed. Then go to politics and marketing. Even more interesting.

Wrong GC by the way. What they provide is the equivalent of the D-86. Shows a carbon chain length RANGE but not a structure. You would understand your information better if you knew what test you were looking at and what the results of those test told you.

Additives my young man are there to SUPPORT the base oil. Not the other way around. They are not just a variable in the formulation. They are the backbone of it. If you could actually lubricate with nothing but additives they would. And you can for a fact lubricate with nothing BUT a base oil. Remember reading about SAE SA and SB oils? Zero additives.

The last 100 years of lubrication refining have been centered on nothing but the perfection of a base oil. Tis the point of the entire process. Making bases that require less additives of all kinds.

You, in an attempt to further you product brand choice you have missed the entire point of the base oil selection. PAO/Esters do without additives what other 'so called' synthetic base demand to get close and in that, totally whiffed the point that these PAO/Ester blend DO NOT SHEAR THIN. And because the don't the VISOCOSITY...that little thing that IS the Hersey number in the Stribeck curve depends upon to keep parts from touching parts long after the additive is sheared to uselessness. When you buy an oil that shears 25% your 10 cP oil is now a 7.5. IF you buy and oil without VM's then your 10 is a 10 no matter what the shear rate is. Kind of the definition of a Newtonian fluid.

ALL additives are sacrificial. You are trying to convince me that additives can make a pig fly. They can only make that pig think it can.

That out of the way.... I need an all electric car to make a 200 mile journey. Brand A makes one that goes 500 miles and brand B goes 1,000 miles. I need 200. They can market as they wish and draw graphs till we are all blind. Both are more than I need so now I buy price.

I sir am not brand loyal. I'm chemistry/physics/math/results loyal. Mostly I'm loyal to that which is truthful.

But I see you are committed to Kool-Aid so I will leave you to your drink.

Grumpy Bear · October 22, 2021

5 hours ago, customboss said:

I see where you mention base oils a lot. The base oil is critical but so is every other constituent. There are base oils that are not reported on SDS nor discussed in marketing.

Logic buss is coming. Ready?

The entire oil industry world wide and spent over 100 years and TENS of TRILLIONS of dollars on processes, equipment, R&D, training and construction to enhance base oil performance. That's just a fact anyone can check who can read. I was 40 years a part of that journey.

Now the AMSOIL faithful and the company itself is now trying to tell the world that this was an utter waste of time because AFTON and LUBRIZOL have additives that in the hands of a skilled AMSOIL blender will make a Crude cut Naphthalene base stock perform as well as the best base oils with those very same additives.

:wtf:

If ever there was a WT* moment in time...........this is it.

customboss · October 24, 2021

"So you do FUD. Interesting indeed. Then go to politics and marketing. Even more interesting."

Marty, sharing independent IOM oil analysis bench testing is all that? Ad hominem much?

As far as GCMS you'd need a proprietary library of GCMS data which each oil company and additive/chem company has for their own use but they don't share it so YOU'D be guessing like you do reading SDS sheets and that one oil analysis you extracted for Pepper. If you won't purchase the IOM data you sure can't afford needle in haystack GCMS ID work of a fully formulated lubricant. Another fact is that a fully formulated lubricant GC scan does not look like one base oil or one additive but you understand that I hope.

My point here is to learn and share not chest beat or one-up anyone. I worked as long or longer than you (based on your bloviating here) and I am/was a chem engineer. You might even have used my consult at some point in your history.

I started at Standard oil in 1976. I think you at Amoco/BP? What did you do? How much formulating have YOU done? I worked independently for over 42 years. I've consulted for about every major oil company over that time frame.

BTW

https://www.thefreedictionary.com › buss

1. buss - the act of caressing with the lips (or an instance thereof) kiss, osculation. touching, touch - the act of putting two things together with no space between them; "at his touch the room filled with lights". smooch, smack - an enthusiastic kiss.

I don't know you that well and you aren't very friendly to newcomers now are ya?

Why not tone it down and let's learn together here and help those who could care less about molecules to trust science and not attack one another to make ourselves feel better? Make our GM units work as well as GM intended! Without regard to brand BS.

Edited October 24, 2021 by customboss
spelling correction

diyer2 · October 24, 2021

Until I joined this forum I never thought of oil base stocks or additives. I never considered using the fancy oils like Amsoil etc. I just changed my oil. When they started extended OCI's I ignored it. Marketing B.S. I thought.

A lot of owners do the extended OCI's and have had no issues but some have had issues IMO directly related to extended OCI's.

While I understand the desire to analyze things such as an oils composition, it never occurred to me because I never had a motor failure. So thanks to the input on this forum I have learned about motor oil. Do I feel there is any advantage to this knowledge, yes. I'm more educated about motor oil and why it can cost $15 a quart.

All I know is 3 K mile OCI's has served me well. Oil and filters can be cheap or cost effective if you like. I have used the cheapest dino oil and the cheapest oil filter I could find and never had a motor issue. I have done one UOA in my life and that was recently only to check oil dilution on a turbo motor.

All the threads and input or opinions about motor oil is informative but it can be confusing. I like KISS.

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

As Grumpy Bear said, you could use mineral oil if you change it often enough.

So will I ever use $15 a quart motor oil, probably not. It's not a money issue.

Again thank all of you for your input. I think I'll go change my oil.

Z45 · October 24, 2021

I have done the opposite for over 30 yrs. Never changed my oil (except for a new vehicle first change) before 15,000 miles or 1 yr of service. Used to go 25,000 miles but since I retired I don't travel as much. Always used the best oil AMSOIL made and their oil filters. My current vehicle, a 2021 GMC Sierra Denali Ultimate has 11,000 miles and got changed over to AMSOIL around 4,000+-. Next oil change will be 20,000 miles. Not one in over 30 yrs have I had an engine, trans or axle problem running AMSOIL. Others can bad mouth it all the want but it won't bother me because I know they are wasting their money with other products and too frequent oil changes.

I estimate I have save well over $1,000 since first using it in 1978. AMSOIL did not last 50 yrs making claims they could not back up.

KARNUT · October 24, 2021

42 minutes ago, diyer2 said:

Until I joined this forum I never thought of oil base stocks or additives. I never considered using the fancy oils like Amsoil etc. I just changed my oil. When they started extended OCI's I ignored it. Marketing B.S. I thought.

A lot of owners do the extended OCI's and have had no issues but some have had issues IMO directly related to extended OCI's.

While I understand the desire to analyze things such as an oils composition, it never occurred to me because I never had a motor failure. So thanks to the input on this forum I have learned about motor oil. Do I feel there is any advantage to this knowledge, yes. I'm more educated about motor oil and why it can cost $15 a quart.

All I know is 3 K mile OCI's has served me well. Oil and filters can be cheap or cost effective if you like. I have used the cheapest dino oil and the cheapest oil filter I could find and never had a motor issue. I have done one UOA in my life and that was recently only to check oil dilution on a turbo motor.

All the threads and input or opinions about motor oil is informative but it can be confusing. I like KISS.

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

As Grumpy Bear said, you could use mineral oil if you change it often enough.

So will I ever use $15 a quart motor oil, probably not. It's not a money issue.

Again thank all of you for your input. I think I'll go change my oil.

I was the last hold out on Amsoil in my family. Especially in personal vehicles. I was a partner in our family business. After time and early oil analysis I relented. That was about 40 years ago. We’re not talking a few vehicles or heavy equipment. It’s hundreds. Fast forward it’s everywhere. Even manufacturers are extended. I can hear all the arguments, blah, blah. It’s silly to think for example Toyota, Honda, VW etc. would recommend extended if it effects their longevity reputation. People were conditioned for 5K oil changes. The still want you to bring it in every 5K miles to be check. It’s time not mileage for me now retired. 3 out of four go to the dealer. The Avalanche gets Amsoil I do that one myself. No jacking up needed. I put about 8K a year on it. I get it that GMs Frankenstein engine needs special care. I’ll pass. I know the 05 Elantra since my daughter got it then her son is getting basic service. It runs great. Same with the 17 Camry another Grandaughter is driving that one. As well as the 01 Acura, 11 Genesis and 15 CRV. I’m doing something right. Peace of mind is priceless, follow your gut.

Z45 · October 24, 2021

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse cannot make a little cheaper and the people who consider price only, are this man's lawful prey. John Ruskin 1819-1900

Grumpy Bear · October 25, 2021

The industry as a whole over the last 100+ years has taken us from 50 mile oil changes to 'life time fills". (Briggs & Stratton) and now we are looking at 'sealed lifetime' fluids from the OEM's. (GM). So they claim.

Hydrocracking, hydro-finishing, Dewaxing. Isomerization. All process developed to help base oils RESIST oxidation better. This increase in resistance has lead to longer and longer OCI recommendations from OEM's. You can only take a mineral oil to the point of zero aromatics and 100% paraffin composition. Zero wax and zero sulfur. What you can't do by these methods is create an oil whose chemical structures are identical. You can't move the beta hydrogen or remove it entirely.

Processes exist that will manufacture that from other raw materials. POA manufacture and Esterification and alkylated naphthalene, Oil soluble PAG's, all Group V fluids. Actual step by step molecule building that permits even greater resistance to oxidation. Places mineral oils, no matter how well refined will never go. And these fluids will do things naturally it takes a boatload of additive to do marginally and only till the additives are...once again....depleted.

But here is the real take away.

ANY oil WILL work and produce exceptional results; IF the OCI is well matched to the product AND THE SERVICE.

And you choose and oil with enough viscosity reserve to match dilution rate.