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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, customboss said:

Top Tier ppt presentation by GM 2017.  I do not think there is a DI standard for TOP TIER even now. 

 

Link here too : https://www.api.org/-/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Forum Files v2/7-RMonroe-TOP TIER-Program.pdf?la=en&hash=EAEAF231C80829419A1BCC937036F5486F0BFC22

 

7-RMonroe-TOP TIER-Program.pdf 1.8 MB · 2 downloads

 

What does LAC stand for? 

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Grumpy Bear
Grumpy Bear

https://www.consumerreports.org/fuel-economy-efficiency/top-tier-gasoline-worth-the-extra-price-a7682471234/   If it's on the list it's top tier even if the logo is not displayed.   

Black02Silverado
Black02Silverado

I use BP for the most part.  Basically because I get a discount using my BP card. But now that I can get E85. I is it in my 2019 Silverado 6.2. When I don’t. I notice a difference in performance. I al

txab
txab

I was partnered in a Texaco full service station from the early 80's to the early 90's. One thing that we knew about with other fuel dispensing locations, primarily small operations with only a few lo

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, customboss said:

Top Tier ppt presentation by GM 2017.  I do not think there is a DI standard for TOP TIER even now. 

 

Link here too : https://www.api.org/-/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Forum Files v2/7-RMonroe-TOP TIER-Program.pdf?la=en&hash=EAEAF231C80829419A1BCC937036F5486F0BFC22

 

7-RMonroe-TOP TIER-Program.pdf 1.8 MB · 2 downloads

 

How is the chart on page four to be interpreted? 

customboss Senior Enthusiast

customboss

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

How is the chart on page four to be interpreted? 

Confusing eh?  Yes the depiction is not clear without her speaking which I don't have. 

 

The GM engineer Rebecca Monroe is attempting to show unwashed gum tests for gasoline fuels levels over the years, overlaid with levels of treat to try to counter the gum levels. 

 

Since using dispersants (wrongly called detergents) can remove these potential deposit formers.  Even a tiny amount of fuel gum will cause sticking rings, valves, etc. 

 

LAC vs Top Tier vs non top tier treated fuels. 

 

"According to the fuel specifications ASTM D1655 (“Standard Specification for Aviation Turbine Fuels”) and ASTM D4814 (“Standard Specification for Automotive Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel”), the limitations for the gum content are 7 milligrams per 100 mL for aviation turbine fuel and 5 milligrams per 100 mL for motor ...

 

How to measure the gum content of fuels - Anton Paar Wiki"

 

 

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  • 2 years later...
revrnd Senior Enthusiast

revrnd

Posted
Posted

Here in the province of Ontario in Canada I have heard of Top Tier gasoline but I've never heard of a brand touting that their gas is Top Tier. I know in the past contacting the companies asking whether or not their premium contained ethanol (for 2 stroke snowmobile us) usually resulted in a form email thanking me for contacting them... I imagine I'd get the same result emailing them asking if their gas was Top Tier.

redwngr Senior Enthusiast

redwngr

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, revrnd said:

Here in the province of Ontario in Canada I have heard of Top Tier gasoline but I've never heard of a brand touting that their gas is Top Tier. I know in the past contacting the companies asking whether or not their premium contained ethanol (for 2 stroke snowmobile us) usually resulted in a form email thanking me for contacting them... I imagine I'd get the same result emailing them asking if their gas was Top Tier.

 

Shell Canada's website says their gas is Top Tier. 

 

Their premium has been zero ethanol, but I haven't verified that recently. 

 

I steer away from independent fuel discounters and stick with major brands,  but don't worry about  Top Tier. 

 

 

Edited by redwngr
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revrnd Senior Enthusiast

revrnd

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, redwngr said:

 

Shell Canada's website says their gas is Top Tier. 

 

Their premium has been zero ethanol, but I haven't verified that recently. 

 

I steer away from fuel independent fuel discounters and stick with major brands,  but don't worry about  Top Tier. 

 

 

Our recent regs stated that all grades of gas are supposed to contain ethanol. But I have tested the local premium for my powersports use & it still is ethanol free.

 

I think Canadian Tire's gas bars had been supplied by Imperial Oil (Esso, owned by Exxon) but have now rebranded some of their locations as Petrocan after tying their rewards card to the Petro Points system. Not sure if that means Petrocan (Suncor) is their supplier now.

 

I hear you on the independents. I learned my lesson years ago w/ my '82 K15 that had the LE9 ESC motor. Filled up at the gas bar east of where I lived and then headed north on a Fri'. Truck was pinging going down a hill...

 

There have been a couple of instances in Toronto where folks have had issues after filling up @ certain gas stations...

  • 4 weeks later...
KARNUT Senior Enthusiast

KARNUT

Posted
Posted

I’ve been running an experiment without knowing it. My Avalanche gets only a store brand gas and has been for almost 5 years. We have a discount card. Being a gas guzzler I go with the discount gas. The wife’s Genesis gets mostly Exxon or shell. I drive it on Sunday to church and fill it for her. The trip vehicle, the Odyssey gets mostly truck stop gas usually Loves sometimes the store brand at home. No reason other than convenience. I did injection cleaning once on the Genesis at 120K. They gave me a discount. No difference was noticeable. In other news. Just did a rotation on the Odyssey at 30K on the tires. Look almost new. When I got the vehicle the tires were noisy and wearing awful. Was thinking alignment . Would be the first time ever. Discount even suggested it. They don’t do alignments. I didn’t was going on a trip it slipped my mind. My experience which is all can offer is. Most of the time we’re being sold a bill of goods. I always buy the best tires and get gas at high volume places. Nothing scientific about this, just my experience. I just don’t like people messing with my tires or front end more than necessary. For me anyway less is more. I would mention what I do about oil. But there’s enough about that already. 

  • 2 months later...
Transient Senior Enthusiast

Transient

Posted
Posted
On 4/16/2022 at 3:11 PM, customboss said:

First mass marketed and produced Gas Direct Injection marketed to US was Hyundai, 2009 .

 

The engineers there were former Ford folks, interesting Ford introduced the 2010 series Ecoboost right after Hyundai. 

 

The rest of the WIKI  distraction has no bearing on the deposits most are experiencing whether they know it or not. 

 

True DDI , diesel direct injection was introduced much earlier. 

 

 

 

 

No love for GM with the 2009 Chevrolet Cobalt SS with the LNF engine?  The LNF engine was a 2.0 liter turbocharged direct injection engine.  The LNF replaced the LSJ because the LSJ, a supercharged 2.0 liter engine couldn't pass new emissions requirements at the time.  Iirc, LNF was also in the Saturn Sky Redline and Pontiac Solstice GXP.

Transient Senior Enthusiast

Transient

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/29/2024 at 6:11 AM, KARNUT said:

I’ve been running an experiment without knowing it. My Avalanche gets only a store brand gas and has been for almost 5 years. We have a discount card. Being a gas guzzler I go with the discount gas. The wife’s Genesis gets mostly Exxon or shell. I drive it on Sunday to church and fill it for her. The trip vehicle, the Odyssey gets mostly truck stop gas usually Loves sometimes the store brand at home. No reason other than convenience. I did injection cleaning once on the Genesis at 120K. They gave me a discount. No difference was noticeable. In other news. Just did a rotation on the Odyssey at 30K on the tires. Look almost new. When I got the vehicle the tires were noisy and wearing awful. Was thinking alignment . Would be the first time ever. Discount even suggested it. They don’t do alignments. I didn’t was going on a trip it slipped my mind. My experience which is all can offer is. Most of the time we’re being sold a bill of goods. I always buy the best tires and get gas at high volume places. Nothing scientific about this, just my experience. I just don’t like people messing with my tires or front end more than necessary. For me anyway less is more. I would mention what I do about oil. But there’s enough about that already. 

Discount Tire does do alignments.  They've been adding it to their stores over the last year+.

 

As for me and the wife, it's Top Tier only.  She has 120,000 miles on her Traverse.  On the fuel side things are fantastic.  I wish I could say the same for things like the transmission.  I'm only at 78,000 on the Silverado, so not much room to talk there.  The wife prefers to fill up at Shell.  I fill up at Chevron. 

 

Since the subject of gumming up was brought up previously, I have a question.  Would Marvel Mystery Oil help percent the valves/valve springs from getting stuck?

Edited by Transient
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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

Posted
Posted (edited)

To be a Top Tier Fuel it must pass a set of cleanliness tests. To pass those test most of these Top Tier fuels contain 2X to 3X the LAC (Lowest Additive Content). 

 

Shell V Power Nitro + Premium contains not only 6X the LAC but a friction modifier as well. 

Exxon/Mobil Synergy Supreme + Premium also contains a friction modifier that claims a 30% reduction in ring/bore wear. No claim as to the detergent multiplication I can find in print. 

 

These friction and multiples of Top Tier detergent add packs are only available in there Premium fuels.  The 87 and 89 octane fuel follow the regular pattern of 2 to 3X the detergents of  LAC but do not contain the friction package. 

 

I guess the question one needs to ask themselves is if a 30% reduction in wear is worth the near a dollar a gallon expense. For me, the answer is yes. YMMV. Locally my choice has been Shell. Exxon/Mobil, in my area, is about 50 cents a gallon more. That said, on the road and absent a Shell Station I will use XOM fuel. Absent both any Top Tier Premium. Chevron my first alternate. (PEA based detergent). Then Marathon. 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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customboss Senior Enthusiast

customboss

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Transient said:

Discount Tire does do alignments.  They've been adding it to their stores over the last year+.

 

As for me and the wife, it's Top Tier only.  She has 120,000 miles on her Traverse.  On the fuel side things are fantastic.  I wish I could say the same for things like the transmission.  I'm only at 78,000 on the Silverado, so not much room to talk there.  The wife prefers to fill up at Shell.  I fill up at Chevron. 

 

Since the subject of gumming up was brought up previously, I have a question.  Would Marvel Mystery Oil help percent the valves/valve springs from getting stuck?

No Sir, not in a modern engine, its napthenic constituent burns off very quick. In a old school  air cooled aircraft engine it helps in fuel and oil.  The only thing that helps in DI engines for instance is keeping that injector flowing properly so its not scrubbing oil off the cylinder with excess fuel. 

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customboss Senior Enthusiast

customboss

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

To be a Top Tier Fuel it must pass a set of cleanliness tests. To pass those test most of these Top Tier fuels contain 2X to 3X the LAC (Lowest Additive Content). 

 

Shell V Power Nitro + Premium contains not only 6X the LAC but a friction modifier as well. 

Exxon/Mobil Synergy Supreme + Premium also contains a friction modifier that claims a 30% reduction in ring/bore wear. No claim as to the detergent multiplication I can find in print. 

 

These friction and multiples of Top Tier detergent add packs are only available in there Premium fuels.  The 87 and 89 octane fuel follow the regular pattern of 2 to 3X the detergents of  LAC but do not contain the friction package. 

 

I guess the question one needs to ask themselves is if a 30% reduction in wear is worth the near a dollar a gallon expense. For me, the answer is yes. YMMV. Locally my choice has been Shell. Exxon/Mobil, in my area, is about 50 cents a gallon more. That said, on the road and absent a Shell Station I will use XOM fuel. Absent both any Top Tier Premium. Chevron my first alternate. (PEA based detergent). Then Marathon. 

 

 

My choice has been using AMSOIL PI every 4000-5000 miles to the relatively low cost MAVERIK E15 in the DI engines. 

 

In my Multiport or carbed engines AMSOIL UCL  ( upper cylinder additive ) does that friction modification and some cleaning of injector or carb. I decide interval based on my tracking MPG drop off. 

 

Buying a rack mixed fuel is an improvement over adding things to my tank.  

 

 

 

 

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newdude Senior Enthusiast

newdude

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

To be a Top Tier Fuel it must pass a set of cleanliness tests. To pass those test most of these Top Tier fuels contain 2X to 3X the LAC (Lowest Additive Content). 

 

Shell V Power Nitro + Premium contains not only 6X the LAC but a friction modifier as well. 

Exxon/Mobil Synergy Supreme + Premium also contains a friction modifier that claims a 30% reduction in ring/bore wear. No claim as to the detergent multiplication I can find in print. 

 

These friction and multiples of Top Tier detergent add packs are only available in there Premium fuels.  The 87 and 89 octane fuel follow the regular pattern of 2 to 3X the detergents of  LAC but do not contain the friction package. 

 

 

 

 

I always find it funny how the OEMs push for Top Tier but to actually benefit from a really good Top Tier fuel it requires an octane jump to really benefit from them.  

 

I recall from a few years back there was an attempt to actually push for 91 octane to become the minimum octane rating as there would be performance and fuel economy benefits to these newer DI engines and turbo engines instead of setting them up for 87.  Automakers and Legislators Consider Making Premium Gas the New Standard

 

 

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customboss Senior Enthusiast

customboss

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, newdude said:

 

 

I always find it funny how the OEMs push for Top Tier but to actually benefit from a really good Top Tier fuel it requires an octane jump to really benefit from them.  

 

I recall from a few years back there was an attempt to actually push for 91 octane to become the minimum octane rating as there would be performance and fuel economy benefits to these newer DI engines and turbo engines instead of setting them up for 87.  Automakers and Legislators Consider Making Premium Gas the New Standard

 

 

If that min octane (avg of RON and MON ) was required ALL our engines would benefit and emission would decline. 
 

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